New interview with Steve Danuser about BfA

[Feanoro]

Pushing a meme that often ends up, "give us more by giving those guys less" by minimizing how what Horde players went through isn't going to cut it.

Too bad that "meme" isn't remotely what I've argued for. Too bad also that the Horde playerbase is split between Thrall's Horde and NuScourge fans. Too bad as well that Horde seems to always get things at Alliance's expense, but don't you DARE suggest they even briefly get the same treatment. For all that crap about "Alliance players whine, but don't want to swap with Horde", you might examine how Hordies are scared shitless of swapping places with Alliance.

Enjoy a faction that was deliberately made worse in pve for transfer money, had to be propped up in pvp by one racial to stand a chance whoops fuck you it's gone, and gets to be a plot device for the Horde. Yeah.

The argument isn't that you should enjoy the story, God knows it's crap. It's that you could have it a lot worse, and that both sides should be given equal story and even handed treatment.

You don't like Horde being cast as villains?
1) Outshout the NuScourge fans who constantly tell Blizz they only want to "crush Alliance skulls".
2) Tell Blizz you want Thrall's Horde (or whatever version) and keep banging that drum until they hear it.

Stop blaming the Alliance playerbase for wanting SOMETHING beyond being your plot device. We're TOLD we won, never shown it. Hell, the end of the latest idiotic faction mess was Anduin in Org (where his heart has always been), praising the bloodthirsty psycho who led the campaign up to Teldrassil because he felt sad afterwards. The devs' comments on Teldrassil burning were "Don't worry, Horde, you'll be fine as we explore what this means for you." Not one damn word like "Hey Night Elves, it looks dark but have faith".

I'm not telling you to enjoy the story, so kindly stop telling me I should enjoy my situation.

[Syegfryed]

For all that crap about "Alliance players whine, but don't want to swap with Horde", you might examine how Hordies are scared shitless of swapping places with Alliance.

you didn't answer me, like i said i could gladly trade, what about you? would you trade all this horde focus?

We are talking about a swap, same things reversed, would you be ok?

both sides should be given equal story and even handed treatment.

But what is equal in alliance eyes?

You don't like Horde being cast as villains?
1) Outshout the NuScourge fans who constantly tell Blizz they only want to "crush Alliance skulls".
2) Tell Blizz you want Thrall's Horde (or whatever version) and keep banging that drum until they hear it.

you don't think we all said that in past 5 expansions?

Stop blaming the Alliance playerbase for wanting SOMETHING beyond being your plot device.

the other way around is also right, stop blaming horde playerbase for the shit writing asking something in more detriment of the horde story/faction?

no one in his right mind liked this bfa story, trying to say "reeee our shit story is worse than their shit story because X" is rly subjective

[Feanoro]

you didn't answer me, like i said i could gladly trade, what about you? would you trade all this horde focus?

We are talking about a swap, same things reversed, would you be ok?

A full swap? Hell yes. Story sucks either way, but then we'd have the player pool for raiding/m+ and so on. Meanwhile, Horde could find out just how empty our "victories" are. It'd be fascinating to see how long it'd take before you were here pointing out how you got a lone questgiver saying "Sorry, you lost" while we got a full cinematic of gloriously zooming into a new zone on a full fleet.

But what is equal in alliance eyes?

I don't know, maybe a story of our own? One that ISN'T reacting to the Horde?

you don't think we all said that in past 5 expansions?

Evidently not loud enough to be heard over the "RAWR WE BAD KILL ALLIANCE" fans.

the other way around is also right, stop blaming horde playerbase for the shit writing asking something in more detriment of the horde story/faction?

Please show me where I said to the detriment of the Horde. Do you realize all it would take to seem like the Horde REMOTELY made amends for another war would be a few throwaway lines about a peace treaty? Just like they pull armies out of their asses, the writers could easily come up with some form of reparations that didn't cost the Horde players a damn thing.

[Speedlance]

Whats wrong with her being garrosh 2.0 tho?

[Combatbutler]

Whats wrong with her being garrosh 2.0 tho?

Because it is boring and unoriginal as sin.

[Varodoc]

Whats wrong with her being garrosh 2.0 tho?

The fact that it's lazy to recycle an old villain, who was also better written I might add. Hopefully Sylvanas fucks off soon enough so that we can move on to more original villains.

[Combatbutler]

The fact that it's lazy to recycle an old villain, who was also better written I might add. Hopefully Sylvanas fucks off soon enough so that we can move on to more original villains.

Yeah there are two other windrunners that need to be put down

[Mehrunes]

Yeah there are two other windrunners that need to be put down

But what if it doesn't happen and Lirath comes back in Shadowlands instead?

[Combatbutler]

But what if it doesn't happen and Lirath comes back in Shadowlands instead?

If he murders his sisters to come back, I will roll out a carpet for him. Otherwise shit happens, it would be the equivalent of yet another human character being fleshed out.

[Shibito]

Lol, really, ignorant as ever.

And he kind of admitted they straight up lied to the fans when saying Sylvanas won't be Garrosh 2.0. - No instead she's a Garrosh 2.0 with nuances... with a shade of purple maybe?

These old white men at Blizzard are just complacent dickheads. If they haven't learned how to make a good expac or tell a good story by now, they most likely never will.

I doubt their skin color has anything to do with their storytelling but w/e

[Syegfryed]

A full swap? Hell yes. Story sucks either way, but then we'd have the player pool for raiding/m+ and so on.

we are talking about lore, not raiding and m+, but fine, still, would you be ok with Anduin and others going full villein abandoning the alliance and everything else, characters dead for no purpose and all the others "good" package?

Meanwhile, Horde could find out just how empty our "victories" are.

every victory in bfa is empty, we could as well erase bfa from the lore and just said sylvanas left one day to fight bolvar, teldrassil caught fire by the unstable azerite and undercity imploded by blight

like our war campaign, everything done was undone by the alliance, the only thing i can think off is alliance getting more of Arathi

It'd be fascinating to see how long it'd take before you were here pointing out how you got a lone questgiver saying "Sorry, you lost" while we got a full cinematic of gloriously zooming into a new zone on a full fleet.

to keep our faction with integrity and our characters alive? hell yes

i love how most Legion didn't had any Horde at all to be killed our lore fucked up, but when it shows is garbage

I don't know, maybe a story of our own? One that ISN'T reacting to the Horde?

and the horde can get a story on their own who isn't attacking alliance and attacking themselves?

Evidently not loud enough to be heard over the "RAWR WE BAD KILL ALLIANCE" fans.

Or because the writers have their heads to deep in their asses to hear anyone else?

Please show me where I said to the detriment of the Horde. Do you realize all it would take to seem like the Horde REMOTELY made amends for another war would be a few throwaway lines about a peace treaty? Just like they pull armies out of their asses, the writers could easily come up with some form of reparations that didn't cost the Horde players a damn thing.

but they did that, more things would be completely pointless just for alliance players to brag and rub on horde players face in the forums, you know, like the bee mount.

one day alliance and horde players will see they are both victims, they should be against the devs, not against themselves.

[agentsi]

Lol, really, ignorant as ever.

And he kind of admitted they straight up lied to the fans when saying Sylvanas won't be Garrosh 2.0. - No instead she's a Garrosh 2.0 with nuances... with a shade of purple maybe?

These old white men at Blizzard are just complacent dickheads. If they haven't learned how to make a good expac or tell a good story by now, they most likely never will.

What does being someone working at blizzard and being white have anything to do with this situation? Like what kinda idiotic statement is that. Take your racist and ignorant opinions elsewhere.

Not everyone hated the storytelling in BFA. There were tons of good aspects in BFA, but Blizzard fans expect perfection. While those who loved it, don't flock to forums to gloat about it, they play the game instead. We only see the trolls who have nothing better to do hate this much on a game. It wasn't s good as Legion, or MoP, to me. But to others, it might have been more enjoyable overall.

[allawyn]

I have to say this post is bold. You have literally (and I mean "literally literally") cut out the part of the quote where I say I have "sympathy that Alliance players didn't like what they got either" and "I've read some good posts form Alliance players who recognize things that have sucked for both sides", so you can type "Stop blaming the Alliance playerbase" and "so kindly stop telling me I should enjoy my situation"

Now the main reason I bring this up, is that I wonder if people really think these kinds of strawmen work. I mean, this will only mean something to someone who has been reading the thread, and if they have, they have seen for themselves the quote part that was deleted. I guess one might assume they forgotten it, but then the idea that will remember what you said about someone else's post is not going to be remembered either.

Too bad that "meme" isn't remotely what I've argued for. Too bad also that the Horde playerbase is split between Thrall's Horde and NuScourge fans. Too bad as well that Horde seems to always get things at Alliance's expense, but don't you DARE suggest they even briefly get the same treatment. For all that crap about "Alliance players whine, but don't want to swap with Horde", you might examine how Hordies are scared shitless of swapping places with Alliance.

Enjoy a faction that was deliberately made worse in pve for transfer money, had to be propped up in pvp by one racial to stand a chance whoops fuck you it's gone, and gets to be a plot device for the Horde. Yeah.

The argument isn't that you should enjoy the story, God knows it's crap. It's that you could have it a lot worse, and that both sides should be given equal story and even handed treatment.

You don't like Horde being cast as villains?
1) Outshout the NuScourge fans who constantly tell Blizz they only want to "crush Alliance skulls".
2) Tell Blizz you want Thrall's Horde (or whatever version) and keep banging that drum until they hear it.

Stop blaming the Alliance playerbase for wanting SOMETHING beyond being your plot device. We're TOLD we won, never shown it. Hell, the end of the latest idiotic faction mess was Anduin in Org (where his heart has always been), praising the bloodthirsty psycho who led the campaign up to Teldrassil because he felt sad afterwards. The devs' comments on Teldrassil burning were "Don't worry, Horde, you'll be fine as we explore what this means for you." Not one damn word like "Hey Night Elves, it looks dark but have faith".

I'm not telling you to enjoy the story, so kindly stop telling me I should enjoy my situation.

- - - Updated - - -

One thing in defense of Blizzard. They idea that they deliberately favor any group has little traction in my view. They have a strong, very real, monetary interest in keeping both sides happy. Now they may be totally out of touch with what players would find enjoyable, and they seem to have a poor understanding of how people will see the story ("gosh, we put in this minor thing here to show that, we had no idea people would pay more attention to the dramatic cut-scene"), and the writing isn't very good or original. (OK so it is a partial defense of Blizzard.) But that is just doing a bad job, not deliberately cheating or screwing over one set of fans.

- - - Updated - - -

You're just telling @allawyn how comparatively great Horde has it compared to Alliance as an argument to disprove their claim that Alliance players have been telling the Horde players how great they have it. That's... one way to reply to their post, I guess.

More accurately, some Alliance posts. I'm not sure the posts advocating this meme even represent a majority of Allliance posters. (Heck, I'm likely to _be_ Alliance if I come back to try Shadowlands.)

[Syegfryed]

One thing in defense of Blizzard. They idea that they deliberately favor any group has little traction in my view. They have a strong, very real, monetary interest in keeping both sides happy. Now they may be totally out of touch with what players would find enjoyable, and they seem to have a poor understanding of how people will see the story ("gosh, we put in this minor thing here to show that, we had no idea people would pay more attention to the dramatic cut-scene"), and the writing isn't very good or original. (OK so it is a partial defense of Blizzard.) But that is just doing a bad job, not deliberately cheating or screwing over one set of fans.

one of the main problems with blizzard is just how disconnected with their playerbase and with their own game lore they are

they genuinely think everyone as going to like this piece of shit of expansion

They saw how people liked mop in general and try to copy that, they though it the horde would want a dumb ebelion and "find what the horde is" again, because many people liked that in mop, they though the alliance players would be happy being the heroes who only act in response of the enemies because they are to righteous, and many other things they though it would be awesome and was shit.

They said many times they don't hear player feedback towards their lore, they do those isolated, and do what they like, they do a game to then and share to us(i think the quote was something like that) and since Danouser is proud of it, i bet they don't hear/accept critics at all, in the headquarters the story was a successful

[ravenmoon]

[We have heard this meme before, I'm going to say this _once_.]

The Hero bat for the Horde? Absurd. While Jaina skips away from ethnic cleansing and attempted mass murder, our "heroes" have been saying how everything is their fault and calling the Horde evil. We get to watch our own leaders commit terrible atrocities and end up being pawns of the Alliance leader to bring down our own side. And for that we get be ignored in neutral patches, except maybe when our own quest gives make anti-horde rants.

I'm willing to believe that things haven't been great for the Alliance, but I have to say that all those Alliance players telling us that the trash Blizzard gives us is gold, telling us how great we like it, and demanding that Blizzard make things better for the Alliance by giving us more trash? They are more annoying than you can believe. I mean, those posts really come off as feeling entitled and tunnel vision on only what _they_ deserve.

But if you really believe the Horde had it so good. You should all be raising the call to Blizzard to give you villian bat. You want to see Jaina be turned into a racist monster and commit atrocities while Varian admits that the Alliance racist demands that everything be seen from only their perspective is the root cause of problems. As players you get to along with this, until the Horde leader releases some minor Alliance character from jail and we watch them go off an do what the Horde has sent them to do. Meanwhile, the Horde character you hate the most gets turned into hero you have to work with. And yes, you get _all_ of that, anything less if not the villian bat. Then you get to move on to Horde lore characters saving the world from old gods or whatever villian du jour while you tag along.

Nothing else would show you really mean it and you just aren't trying to spin things.

I can't force blizzard to be interested in the alliance, or write interesting roles for it. They admit they find it difficult and easier to write for the horde.

When they write for their fabvourites.. this is what you get. You may disagree with how i've put it, adn think it's spin But if you're honest you'll notice that the horde has the centre stage of the two factions, and most of the writing and activity is centred aound it and its actions (especially against the alliance), it's not an alliance perspective situation.

You may classify "good" as when the horde are winning everything and also being nice, polite and gentil about it.. or whatever you calssiify, but to blizzard in its war game a good war story, with blood and guuts, lots of twists and turns, butultimately coming through that's what's a good story.. And that's what the horde got. Playing the villain card is part of the horde so they used it.

- - - Updated - - -

Because it is boring and unoriginal as sin.

Not as boring and unoriginal as night elves becoming classic forest elves only about trees and druidsm or super friendly yes man purple humans basically high elves called differently.

But apparently an original vision might be too difficult to pursue correctly. At least when it's on the alliance.. so it's just standardised,c os alliance just happens to not be interesting enough to write.

Oh how I wish they dial back on the faction stuff for an expansion or three, and go back to focusing on the races. Their original visions and lore has very intereting materials for every group. Faction really should be secondary. Write your stories per zone, conflicts between local enemies or rivals, touching stories of healed wounds or broken hearts.

but knowing blizz writers, it's going for sensation i.e. broken hearts, or Garrosh 3.0 again. cos you know, we just love the stuff.

Yeah there are two other windrunners that need to be put down

The alliance hate is showing today. It's okay to be Thalassian, pale and blond and on the alliance you know

[Feanoro]

I have to say this post is bold. You have literally (and I mean "literally literally") cut out the part of the quote where I say I have "sympathy that Alliance players didn't like what they got either" and "I've read some good posts form Alliance players who recognize things that have sucked for both sides"

And yet, you keep pushing this idea that anyone saying Alliance has it bad is trying to tell Horde players how to feel, and wants Horde players to suffer. Or something. After all, it would be humiliating and unprecedented if the Horde had actual consequences! Never mind the near constant humiliation conga Alliance has had since Cata...

so you can type "Stop blaming the Alliance playerbase" and "so kindly stop telling me I should enjoy my situation"

Instead of recognizing there's a group of Horde players that do want to be NuScourge and push for the characterization of the Horde that you don't like, you attack Alliance players as telling you how to feel. Maybe you should actually try having that sympathy you claim, and you might see why Alliance says Horde enjoyed the story. Heck, try looking around for all the jokes, memes, and mockery that surrounded Teldrassil and you might understand why that impression would be given.

Meanwhile, you refuse to consider the Alliance being given something beyond a grudging pseudo-victory so long as they forget anything ever happened. Do you realize how absurd and unrealistic it is to suggest "Oh, the bad leader is gone, guess you guys are innocent lambs, let's pretend nothing happened"? That's been what passes for our story every fucking time the idiot faction war rears its ugly head. Do you understand that our supposed leader didn't say two words for a near extinction of a core race of his own faction, but gave a speech eulogizing the orc that made that event possible? Hey looky there, a memorial service for the dead of Teldrassil! Wouldn't have cost the Horde a damn thing! Clearly impossible though, because you've insisted any Alliance content would somehow make Hordies suffer.

Now the main reason I bring this up, is that I wonder if people really think these kinds of strawmen work. I mean, this will only mean something to someone who has been reading the thread, and if they have, they have seen for themselves the quote part that was deleted. I guess one might assume they forgotten it, but then the idea that will remember what you said about someone else's post is not going to be remembered either.

No, I dismissed those statements because I don't believe them. They do not fit with your insistence that this is a zero sum game and the only way for Alliance to have anything is for Horde to suffer, so therefore Alliance should continue to get nothing.

[Soon-TM]

If he murders his sisters to come back, I will roll out a carpet for him. Otherwise shit happens, it would be the equivalent of yet another human character being fleshed out.

If Lirath returns in SL, he will probably given some edgy superpower along with a remarkable mental unstability. He will also probably will be turned into another random human boi's !@#$toy, as it befits all his siblings

[Combatbutler]

The alliance hate is showing today. It's okay to be Thalassian, pale and blond and on the alliance you know

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Alliance, I don't give a damn about either faction, the Windrunners are just all annoying as hell, whether it is the screecher and her crusade against life, the weeper who should have died at theramore , then of course the one who believes it is a good idea to play with the worst insanity inducing powers in the universe and to top it all off banging generic human number 12.

So in short the Windrunners are just garbage for me.

[Varodoc]

If Lirath returns in SL, he will probably given some edgy superpower along with a remarkable mental unstability. He will also probably will be turned into another random human boi's !@#$toy, as it befits all his siblings

Which sibling? Vereesa? Cause both Alleria and Sylvanas are certainly strong and independent women.

[BaumanKing]

Which sibling? Vereesa? Cause both Alleria and Sylvanas are certainly strong and independent women.

Independent? Alleria herself said in audiodrama, that she won't live without Turalyon, if he dies.