Yeah i would have constant issues with the game too if i pugged.

[Nachtigal]

Well, that surely helps a little bit. But it was not about lootmongering only what i had issues with. My biggest issue is that the raiding game in WoW and raid guilds are not about "playing together with friends", but it is just about playing together to get the best loot, and about performance, and not people who like each others.

People confuse a game with a second job.

It’s probably got a lot to do with your attitude. You’re a very whiny individual from what I’ve seen you post. If you’re so thinly skinned that you can’t go out into the community, find a guild, and leave it if they turn out to be dicks, then that’s definitely a you problem. In all my years of playing WoW, I’ve encountered the guilds you describe ONCE.

I left, found a new one, and went about my business. If you’re finding yourself being kicked because stuff isn’t dying, or stuff is becoming considerably harder because of your performance, you can’t really blame them.


My guild downed heroic N’Zoth, and we’ve got a single hunter we carry the shit out of. We don’t give a shit, guys got a positive attitude about it. He’s cool. If for whatever reason, we ever got to a point where it was just impossible because of him, and we asked him to step out for that boss, he’d do it and he’d be reinvited as soon as the boss dies. This is not the first guild I’ve been in that does this.

Maybe I’m lucky and I just manage to find the right guilds for what I want to accomplish, or maybe it’s just my attitude that allows me to persevere. Hell, maybe it’s maybelline. But you’re definitely going to have a hard time finding anything positive with your negative attitude.

[Azerate]

It’s probably got a lot to do with your attitude. You’re a very whiny individual from what I’ve seen you post. If you’re so thinly skinned that you can’t go out into the community, find a guild, and leave it if they turn out to be dicks, then that’s definitely a you problem. In all my years of playing WoW, I’ve encountered the guilds you describe ONCE.

I left, found a new one, and went about my business. If you’re finding yourself being kicked because stuff isn’t dying, or stuff is becoming considerably harder because of your performance, you can’t really blame them.


My guild downed heroic N’Zoth, and we’ve got a single hunter we carry the shit out of. We don’t give a shit, guys got a positive attitude about it. He’s cool. If for whatever reason, we ever got to a point where it was just impossible because of him, and we asked him to step out for that boss, he’d do it and he’d be reinvited as soon as the boss dies. This is not the first guild I’ve been in that does this.

Maybe I’m lucky and I just manage to find the right guilds for what I want to accomplish, or maybe it’s just my attitude that allows me to persevere. Hell, maybe it’s maybelline. But you’re definitely going to have a hard time finding anything positive with your negative attitude.

This.

Guilds are like everything else in the world, there are bad ones and there are good ones. We could argue all eternity whether there's more good ones or the bad ones, the fact remains that if you find a good guild (not progress wise, but atmosphere wise) it makes your wow experience much better than just playing solo. And yeah, based on my own experience and from what I'm hearing from friends, casual/heroic guilds are often relaxed and laid back. It's way easier to get stuff done in them than in pugs, that much is for sure. I could never get m+15s or curve through pugs, yet I'm easily able to do that with my guild every tier for years now.

[Phantombeard]

Since i know how mmo-champion works, no, i am not trying to be an asshole or show off, more of a rant.

Its timewalking week, they fixed essence catchup, so why not level up that alt i left at 110 last year right? It takes a few hours for easy 2 Rank 3 essences + cloak, so why not play that Shaman afterall now.

Which i leveled through quests because i couldnt be bothered with dungeons, i leveled every other char that way, just wanted to slow poke it at BoD burn out so a good 2 years without actually pugging anything.

Big god damn mistake.

Of course you people dont like the game if thats the level you are playing at actively.

For every 1 "Decent" tank not even remotely good, just a tank that presses their mitigation button, there are 9 clueless, i dont even know what to describe them as, cause they aint tanks.

For every 1 "decent dps", there are 49 "WHY ARE YOU EVEN ONLINE" "Do you have a keyboard?"

This last few hours, did not classify as "Playing World of Warcraft", if i didnt know better and i returned to this mess , i would unsub instantly again, i would simply alt+f4 after the first dungeon and not return.

Seriously, the game you are playing at the daily pug world, is not how World of Warcraft is meant to be played, for the love of god, get a guild, learn basic interrupts and more importantly, WASD.

What do you mean? You People?

[kaminaris]

For every 1 "Decent" tank not even remotely good, just a tank that presses their mitigation button, there are 9 clueless, i dont even know what to describe them as, cause they aint tanks.

I always said, hunter pet is better tank than most of tanks.

And in all honesty, this is how average player skills are. This is why I am up for making best gear effort gated not skill gated simply because those players will try to get something better, probably trying M+ and fail miserably.

[Gonfer]

It’s probably got a lot to do with your attitude.

My "attitude" was that a raiding guild i was in kicked a friend of mine because he was not performing. I tried to tell the raidleader that he should know my friend was disabled. He did not care.

That is the bad "attitude" of raiding guilds in World of Warcraft. And that was only one of many incidents i could tell you about.

I do not want to play a game together with people who measure others only by performance. For example your very own attitude in your post. I would rather pug any group than to play together with your alikes.

The raiding commuinity in wow is rotten to the core. You are just one of them, and showing.

I do not need libertarianism and ellbow society in a computer game. The world already is filled with it. I rather play world quests with my friend than playing in a raid and play matchmade groups only.

If a community is mainly built out of asshats, i do not want to be part of it.

[Ragnarohk]

I will never understand why someone would rather do pugs all the time over getting a raiding guild.

Raiding guilds have a schedule.

[Ealyssa]

I hope people who act like "I dont wanna join guilds because I dont want the game to feel like a job! I'd rather PUG for 20 hours a week" because they have to invest 3 hours a week into a guild will never ever even influence the game in the slightest.

Lets be honest here. Those people are just terribly insecure and most likely bad at playing the game. That's why they avoid guilds.

[potis]

My "attitude" was that a raiding guild i was in kicked a friend of mine because he was not performing. I tried to tell the raidleader that he should know my friend was disabled. He did not care.

That is the bad "attitude" of raiding guilds in World of Warcraft. And that was only one of many incidents i could tell you about.

I do not want to play a game together with people who measure others only by performance. For example your very own attitude in your post. I would rather pug any group than to play together with your alikes.

The raiding commuinity in wow is rotten to the core. You are just one of them, and showing.

I do not need libertarianism and ellbow society in a computer game. The world already is filled with it. I rather play world quests with my friend than playing in a raid and play matchmade groups only.

If a community is mainly built out of asshats, i do not want to be part of it.

Yeah, thats a terrible excuse on your side, and your attempt to categorize all raiding guilds as such is weak and shows a massive lack of everything.

Disabled players are a thin line to talk about, i dont agree with any guild kicking them, but at the same time its your friends side to accept he is underperforming, and the game at some point requires things, so he can ask for help or info on how to get better.

If he cant do them, its his side that has to be mature and sit out or find ways to adapt, not the guild to suck it up and go with it, especially if its a guild of struggling lower skilled players,and there isnt any room for carrying.

I joined a raid group 6 years ago,they are still part of my raid group the majority of them, there was a 69 year old man in that raid group, that he himself said one day "He is starting not to be able to keep up with the game and how the raiding is becoming harder" and he sat himself out because he knew the group was already struggling, and he wasnt helping in the least by being dead everywhere.

Thats the proper attitude by the way.

Not crying about it, there isnt a magical world where people will sit back and wipe forever because you want to play with your friend(s), disregarding the rest of the guild.

It sounds to me someone else is the problem and they havent figured it out yet.

[Reyuna]

The time they decided that Tanks should be able to deal damage, is the day the quality of Tanks dropped off the cliff.

[Nnyco]

I would rather play the worst pug ever than trying to find a premade group in World of Warcraft. Or a raiding guild.

There is nothing more toxic to me than raiding guilds.

Not sure what guilds you been to, but guilds are usually way better than any pug could even dream to be.

[Nachtigal]

My "attitude" was that a raiding guild i was in kicked a friend of mine because he was not performing. I tried to tell the raidleader that he should know my friend was disabled. He did not care.

That is the bad "attitude" of raiding guilds in World of Warcraft. And that was only one of many incidents i could tell you about.

I do not want to play a game together with people who measure others only by performance. For example your very own attitude in your post. I would rather pug any group than to play together with your alikes.

The raiding commuinity in wow is rotten to the core. You are just one of them, and showing.

I do not need libertarianism and ellbow society in a computer game. The world already is filled with it. I rather play world quests with my friend than playing in a raid and play matchmade groups only.

If a community is mainly built out of asshats, i do not want to be part of it.

I have no ill will towards you. Whatever toxicity you’re feeling from my post is all conjured from within your own mind, and the way you read into things. I don’t care how disabled someone is, if we’re downing content then they can do as they please.

But if we get to a wall, an actual wall, where it is obvious that we are NOT going to kill it because of his/her lack of ability, then they will have to step out as to not impede on the others time in the group. When that boss dies, they will be reinvited. There’s no drama about it, there’s no shittalking them while they’re gone. Eventually we’ll be able to carry them through everything once we gear past it.

If you’re experiencing this often, then it’s probably because you’re too sensitive to realize what’s happening in the situation. All you know is you/your friend have been “victimized” and you’re in your feelings. You probably start screeching about it, talking about how it’s unfair, and rather than trying to deal with an emotional person who can’t grasp the situation at hand, they kick you and your friend.

Again, it’s your attitude. Own up to when you/your friends can’t perform, and your life will be easier. I’m positive that most of your bad experiences were mostly you/your friend misunderstanding the why and only focusing on the what.

Other people have real lives too. We don’t have time to explain to you for an hour we still want to be your friend while simultaneously trying to get you out of the raid so we can kill the boss and get you back in. We don’t have time to wipe/struggle with a mechanic during our free time.** We have goals we want to achieve in game, and if you’re stopping us from getting there, then you’re benched for that fight.

If you want to be emotional and call us all kinds of names, then that’s your prerogative and you can practice social distancing. But it’s not our problem.
I’ve tried to explain this as thoroughly as I can as to not trigger you.


**when I say wipe/struggle with a mechanic, I mean past the point where it’s obvious that the boss just won’t die because of it.

[Alvito]

Timewalking is also significantly harder this time around since they altered some things trying to balance things for essences, corruption and azerite gear. I know when I was tanking I was getting hammered compared to how I normally get hit. Wrath TW also seems to be one of the worst ones since there are things that often need to be interrupted or dispelled and ppl suck at both. I watched a tank zerg in and pull 3 spell flingers and murder themselves and the healer as the casts went off.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally did it as an experiment...just like Preach does his experiment videos.

Im not a psychopath though.
On my Mythic 0 Group finder title i put "FH mythic 0 bad geared tank"

And people joined

On the LFR situation...yeah...that was pretty bad on my part...

As long as ppl are upfront in group descriptions many don't mind and are happy to do whatever. It is the people who are either delusional or trying to be sneaky that form groups and end up having ppl ditch mid run.

[Shaetha]

My "attitude" was that a raiding guild i was in kicked a friend of mine because he was not performing. I tried to tell the raidleader that he should know my friend was disabled. He did not care.

That is the bad "attitude" of raiding guilds in World of Warcraft. And that was only one of many incidents i could tell you about.

I do not want to play a game together with people who measure others only by performance. For example your very own attitude in your post. I would rather pug any group than to play together with your alikes.

The raiding commuinity in wow is rotten to the core. You are just one of them, and showing.

I do not need libertarianism and ellbow society in a computer game. The world already is filled with it. I rather play world quests with my friend than playing in a raid and play matchmade groups only.

If a community is mainly built out of asshats, i do not want to be part of it.

Stop joining hardcore guilds if you want to be casual. If you applied for a job and refused to do what the employer stated was the job requirements beforehand, would you also consider them the asshole?

There are guilds that offer what you want. They also raid. They're not going to be progressing mythic. They may not even clear heroic, and that's fine. That's literally why the different difficulties exist. They are not a linear progression. It's simply too difficult for a guild that doesn't want to be that organized or ask a minimum level of performance from their players. It's not a toxicity thing. It's just the truth.

Mythic raids are not something you can just do on a lark. Mythic is tuned so tightly that players have to perform to a higher level. They have to do research and know how to gear and play their class. Not to do well, to do anything. You're simply not going to clear Heroic or kill even one mythic boss if you want to put in Normal effort, so joining a guild trying to progress Mythic or clear Heroic with that attitude is disrespectful of the other people in the raid's time.

If you don't wish to put in more effort to optimize your play, that's fine. You can play how you want, but when you join a group, you take on a responsibility to not waste other players' time. If you're not pulling your weight, they're allowed to ask you to put in more effort because you're wasting the time of everyone else in the group. If you refuse to do so, it's not them that are toxic. You accept that burden in a social contract when you join that kind of guild. When you break that contract, you're the asshat.

[Seranthor]

My "attitude" was that a raiding guild i was in kicked a friend of mine because he was not performing. I tried to tell the raidleader that he should know my friend was disabled. He did not care.

That is the bad "attitude" of raiding guilds in World of Warcraft. And that was only one of many incidents i could tell you about.

I do not want to play a game together with people who measure others only by performance. For example your very own attitude in your post. I would rather pug any group than to play together with your alikes.

The raiding commuinity in wow is rotten to the core. You are just one of them, and showing.

I do not need libertarianism and ellbow society in a computer game. The world already is filled with it. I rather play world quests with my friend than playing in a raid and play matchmade groups only.

If a community is mainly built out of asshats, i do not want to be part of it.

So start your own guild... be the hero of your own drama... You are the architect of your own situation.

[Thage]

Timewalking is also significantly harder this time around since they altered some things trying to balance things for essences, corruption and azerite gear. I know when I was tanking I was getting hammered compared to how I normally get hit. Wrath TW also seems to be one of the worst ones since there are things that often need to be interrupted or dispelled and ppl suck at both.

I think a lot of people are eating shit in Wrath timewalking dungeons because they're used to mid-late Wrath, when Triumph emblems were plentiful and you were walking into dungeons with full t9, or ToC5 epics while you built up your t9 set and Argent Tournament/ToC5 weapons (never mind the Year of ICC when Frost emblems were plentiful enough for most level 80s who actively ran dungeons to kit in a full set of t10 and Frozen Halls weapons). At that point you didn't really need to worry about interrupts and the like because you were steamrolling it through sheer numerical superiority. Back at launch, CCing was much more important.

[Gonfer]

Yeah, thats a terrible excuse on your side, and your attempt to categorize all raiding guilds as such is weak and shows a massive lack of everything.

Not really. If a community excludes the weak only for performance, it is not a community i want to part of. In special not in something like a computer game, which people play in their spare time to have fun with others.

If a computer game degenerates into a second job, the game designers did not really do a great job to adress the idea friends could play together.

Disabled players are a thin line to talk about, i dont agree with any guild kicking them, but at the same time its your friends side to accept he is underperforming, and the game at some point requires things, so he can ask for help or info on how to get better..

"Get better, or leave" is the attitude of a factory owner, but should not be the attitude of people playing games together. In special, if they play in a normal raiding guild. WoWs focus nowadays is all on performance, created by a community that dwells in a relentless virtual world.

If he cant do them, its his side that has to be mature and sit out or find ways to adapt, not the guild to suck it up and go with it, especially if its a guild of struggling lower skilled players,and there isnt any room for carrying.

You are talking like a typical World of Warcraft raider.

I joined a raid group 6 years ago,they are still part of my raid group the majority of them, there was a 69 year old man in that raid group, that he himself said one day "He is starting not to be able to keep up with the game and how the raiding is becoming harder" and he sat himself out because he knew the group was already struggling, and he wasnt helping in the least by being dead everywhere.

If it was a game which was really about playing together with friends and family members, the guild would not have to leave him behind. But if everything is based on performance and skill checks too tight, this is what happens. People become antisocial.

It sounds to me someone else is the problem and they havent figured it out yet.

Performance as only attitude in something like a computer game is the real problem.

[Shaetha]

Timewalking is also significantly harder this time around since they altered some things trying to balance things for essences, corruption and azerite gear. I know when I was tanking I was getting hammered compared to how I normally get hit. Wrath TW also seems to be one of the worst ones since there are things that often need to be interrupted or dispelled and ppl suck at both. I watched a tank zerg in and pull 3 spell flingers and murder themselves and the healer as the casts went off.

Timewalking is miserable while leveling. While I don't think it's true it's balanced around corruption, mostly because nothing was changed about timewalking in 8.3 outside fixing bugs, it's definitely balanced with level capped characters in mind.

That, and the mobs in the Wrath timewalking seem to hit way harder than any other timewalking. One thing's for sure, the difficulty of dungeons doesn't have any kind of logic when level scaling is involved. For example: normal cata dungeons are way more difficult than others from a purely numerical standpoint, except Grim Batol is the easiest dungeon you'll do past 60.

[Gonfer]

I have no ill will towards you.

Oh yeah, that is the reason you called me "whiney", right?

Oh please. I see your darwinist attitude without even knowing you.

Whatever toxicity you’re feeling from my post is all conjured from within your own mind, and the way you read into things. I don’t care how disabled someone is, if we’re downing content then they can do as they please.

Well, your post shows where you come from. Without any doubt. You are a member of one of the worst communiies in World of Warcraft, which is entirely based on something stupid like being able to perform at killing pixel bosses, and making a philosophy out of it.

But if we get to a wall, an actual wall, where it is obvious that we are NOT going to kill it because of his/her lack of ability, then they will have to step out as to not impede on the others time in the group.

Or the group just progresses a little bit slower, and still makes everyone part of the group effort. In a computer game. Where it is about having fun together.

You probably start screeching about it, talking about how it’s unfair, and rather than trying to deal with an emotional person who can’t grasp the situation at hand, they kick you and your friend.

And here you assume i was kicked. Just because i dared to defend a friend. I left the guild. And once again, that kind of thing was not the only incident. Actually my impression is that the vast majority of "progress guilds" is built on an idea that every human interaction just has success as the only interesting part to play a game, and that brick walls cannot be mastered without selecting the weak. Darwinist selection as the base principle of game design surely does not lead to socially healthy groups of friends, but more to groups that exist only for performing, which leads to a cold society, made mainly out of people who overestimate performance and the need to work for success rather than to play together with friends.

For me, a good game is a game that allows me to play together with friends, no matter if they perform very well. And there has been a time in world of warcraft, when that was not really possible.

Result is a toxic community, that completely focuses on performance, where people become social addicts and see playing a game as much more important than anything else.

We have goals we want to achieve in game, and if you’re stopping us from getting there, then you’re benched for that fight.

Well, do that with your raiding collegues you work together at your raiding assembly line, but not with me. People like you are the reason the game degenerates into an ellbow society.

[Kehego]

The time they decided that Tanks should be able to deal damage, is the day the quality of Tanks dropped off the cliff.

dunno about that, there were just as many shit tanks back then as there were now, percent wise.
you don't remember the tanks in scarlet monastery in 2005 that would let mobs run around and slap the fuck out of healers? Don't remember the tanks in shattered halls that would do the same?

[valky94]

Queued for the first wing of LFR yesterday without knowing a single mechanic as a tank i did an evil laugh once i got my nearly insta queue

Whispered the other tank my situation, he replied:
"no worries, this is LFR, its free loot"
I died on the boss for having too many stacks (>_<) Battle rezzed and did the mechanic

Next boss we wipe because no one knew which one of the multiple "visions" was the true boss. We killed the wrong one

Pug world...gotta love it

I also did Freehold Mythic 0 with 200k health as a tank...died a couple times and i tanked the last boss with partial red gear. ROFLMAO

well, last boss in freehold is the easiest dungeon boss in this expac

he hits for fuck all, and all you have to do is dodge the fire