Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Feanoro]

The whole point of Algalon was that the curse gives free will, which allows our characters to save the world by acting in unexpected ways.

The reason there's very few Horde factions (beyond writer laziness) is that goes against the whole idea of a horde, which is a type of collective. Hmmm...


"We are the Horde. Life as you knew it is over. We will add your resources and peoples to ours. Resistance will result in genocide."

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pretty sure you are the one with most bias here

Yes, how could I possibly miss your objectivity with your avatar and Doom Garrosh signature.

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yes, thats why this logic is shit, the logic alliance players use trying to put orcs and the horde in another planet like its their planet alone to decide

If anything, pointing out that Orcs are titanforged, i.e. created specifically to order Draenor, strengthens the argument that they're alien to Azeroth.

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I guess you do not know the lore well enough. Draenei did not genocide millions of races as Draenor is the only planet where they stopped their escape from Argus.

But that point wouldn't let them try desperately to prove the Alliance is just as blood-soaked as the Horde. That's the problem, the writers have to blow Alliance misdeeds way out of proportion to try to balance the scales, and Hordies have picked up on that. The funniest part is that when Alliance does something wrong, it's the Horde players that shriek the loudest that "Alliance isn't supposed to do that!", then go back to sneering that goody two-shoes are boring.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, how could I possibly miss your objectivity with your avatar and Doom Garrosh signature.

the avatar is cool and the signature is a meme, but yours... wussh

If anything, pointing out that Orcs are titanforged, i.e. created specifically to order Draenor, strengthens the argument that they're alien to Azeroth.

both are aliens constructs and both are born in azeroth and save then, everyone deserve to be here, and its not the alliance who decide who stays or not, simple as that.

But that point wouldn't let them try desperately to prove the Alliance is just as blood-soaked as the Horde. That's the problem, the writers have to blow Alliance misdeeds way out of proportion to try to balance the scales, and Hordies have picked up on that. The funniest part is that when Alliance does something wrong, it's the Horde players that shriek the loudest that "Alliance isn't supposed to do that!", then go back to sneering that goody two-shoes are boring.

but the alliance still try to justify their actions like you acuse horde players to do.

[Feanoro]

the avatar is cool and the signature is a meme, but yours... wussh

You're the one trying to imply your objectivity by calling others biased.

both are aliens constructs and both are born in azeroth and save then, everyone deserve to be here, and its not the alliance who decide who stays or not, simple as that.

So you miss the point that orcs were created specifically for Draenor? And now you appear to be mixing in game Alliance with Alliance posters.

but the alliance still try to justify their actions like you acuse horde players to do.

Pointing out motivations != justifying. Horde players can point out motivations all they like, but when they say the Horde's means are justified, that's where the line is crossed. Same if the Alliance players do it, though no doubt you'll deny I ever wrote that. There's less opportunity for them to do so, due to the writers focusing on the Horde in both good and bad ways.

[Terongor]

That is true and basically makes humans, dwarves and gnomes wielding the Light not make much sense. If void and light cannot coexist, why do void curse beings channel the powers of the Light so well? In theory the curse of flesh should be a bad thing, but the story never explicitly shows that or focus on it. It's basically a non issue.

So its a non issue if we can't see effects and you said so.... as players and ingame PC's don't know everything and our lack of knowledge doesn't justify that assumption at all until proven 100% thats its an non issue so they are still corrupted antibodies which should be banished or exterminated.

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I guess you do not know the lore well enough. Draenei did not genocide millions of races as Draenor is the only planet where they stopped their escape from Argus.

Velen short story stated they stopped on countless planets and fled before legion arrived and rise of the horde conversation KJ and talgath said that they found many planets which draenais stopped on and velen short story said legion destroyed them... you should really read more of the short stories blizz post in their website.

[Specialka]

So its a non issue if we can't see effects and you said so.... as players and ingame PC's don't know everything and our lack of knowledge doesn't justify that assumption at all until proven 100% thats its an non issue so they are still corrupted antibodies which should be banished or exterminated.

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Velen short story stated they stopped on countless planets and fled before legion arrived and rise of the horde conversation KJ and talgath said that they found many planets which draenais stopped on and velen short story said legion destroyed them... you should really read more of the short stories blizz post in their website.

Whatever, I hate outside medias. And is it mention that there was sentient species on those planets? (And it makes sense they did not flee straight for 10k years as their ships would be kinda small for that)

[Terongor]

Whatever, I hate outside medias. And is it mention that there was sentient species on those planets? (And it makes sense they did not flee straight for 10k years as their ships would be kinda small for that)

It was mentioned that there were living species there as velen regretted their "fate" so its most likely sentient as they wouldn't really suffer if they weren't sentient and if they didn't suffer nothing to regret.

[Syegfryed]

You're the one trying to imply your objectivity by calling others biased.

not rly i just said someone bias was showing, people often keep it hidden when they start with their thing with the horde, especially orcs

So you miss the point that orcs were created specifically for Draenor? And now you appear to be mixing in game Alliance with Alliance posters.

again, both points are dumb, im just comparing things, if you want to discredit or the validity of orcs staying in this world is dumb, when they are also born here, help to save the world and the actual natives befriend with then, humans and the alliance have shit to say who stay or not in this world.

Pointing out motivations != justifying. Horde players can point out motivations all they like, but when they say the Horde's means are justified, that's where the line is crossed. Same if the Alliance players do it, though no doubt you'll deny I ever wrote that. There's less opportunity for them to do so, due to the writers focusing on the Horde in both good and bad ways.

both players want to point motivations and justification for then things, i mean, look how much you and other focusing on attacking the horde have derailed this thread, it started with alliance factions open to horde to alliance players saying orcs and the horde should be deported to another planet like they are the true rulers of this world, thats rly funny

[yani9841]

The reason there's very few Horde factions (beyond writer laziness) is that goes against the whole idea of a horde, which is a type of collective. Hmmm...

except for how there ARE factions within the horde that just remain unused...

The factions we interact with are chosen for various reasons the writing team might pull from a hat.

I have to say that this is a pretty ignorant argument...

If this were true then there wouldn't be groups within the horde like Kor'kron or shattered hand or hell any sort of differentiation between clans

[Feanoro]

except for how there ARE factions within the horde that just remain unused...

Then are they really factions?

I have to say that this is a pretty ignorant argument...

If this were true then there wouldn't be groups within the horde like Kor'kron or shattered hand or hell any sort of differentiation between clans

Kor'kron are like Praetorian Guard, elite troops guarding the warchief, to my knowledge. That's more of a job than a faction, unless you're telling me they've been built up a lot more than I noticed. As to clans, they were all subsumed, sorry united, into the Horde. That was the point during its founding by the Legion, no more inter-clan fighting, just one big, happy, mindless mob following Warchief Puppet. Clans haven't mattered for a LONG time, and WoD didn't exactly help.

[Auxis]

Many races of the Horde have been around for as long as, or even longer than, the races of the Alliance. The Horde as we know it was originally built as a band of tribes that came together to better survive the harshness of Kalimdor, not to fight the Alliance. The Tauren were at peace with the Night Elves for quite a while, considering their close ties in the Cenarion Circle.

The main reason why Humans were so xenophobic of the Orcs was because they were scared/cautious of what these ones stuck on Azeroth would do, so they locked them up in the camps. A few decades later, we've seen that all Orcs can't be generalized as bloodthirsty mongrels just because one bastard sold his race to demons and caused them to go Blood-raged.

Conflicts mainly seem to spawn when there are clashing of ideals: Orcs needing lumber, Night Elves defending their forests for example. There are a few where some ass-hat leader's decided they wanted to start a war, but we can't let that define the two factions.
They're both on this world, they both just want to live. No-one wants to see tens of thousands of their loved ones die in wars, thousands displaced as a result of them (see; the Homeless in Westfall as a result of the War in Northrend).

[Tripzzz]

So its a non issue if we can't see effects and you said so.... as players and ingame PC's don't know everything and our lack of knowledge doesn't justify that assumption at all until proven 100% thats its an non issue so they are still corrupted antibodies which should be banished or exterminated.

Any NPC that values knowledge would know about the curse of flesh. Void is one of the primordial forces that created everything. If you want to wipe out void corrupted beings, you should also want to wipe out fel corrupted beings (green Orcs) and death corrupted beings (undead). Since both death and fel magic are "evil" anything tainted by those dark magics should also be banished or exterminated. Why focus only on void corrupted and not also death and fel? The Orcs and undead should be destroyed by your own logic. They are unnatural and tainted.

[Terongor]

Any NPC that values knowledge would know about the curse of flesh. Void is one of the primordial forces that created everything. If you want to wipe out void corrupted beings, you should also want to wipe out fel corrupted beings (green Orcs) and death corrupted beings (undead). Since both death and fel magic are "evil" anything tainted by those dark magics should also be banished or exterminated. Why focus only on void corrupted and not also death and fel? The Orcs and undead should be destroyed by your own logic. They are unnatural and tainted.

Fel and death by its nature doesn't seek to bend universe to their will as have arbiter and alot more death forces in shadowlands which aren't evil and fel is only described as chaos nothing else, while void and light are both described as forces wanting bend reality to their will seen that light wants to turn planets to their ideal "crystal form" while void seeks to dominate the reality itself meaning void and light are the only actual evil forces of the cosmos.

Also lorewise from orcs it was stated the actual green skin colour is leaving and you can even see from thralls children who are brown which heavily imblies after grommash defeated mannoroth that fel corruption started leaving their bodies and while I'm not seeing curse of flesh going anywhere.

and lastly death and fel magic are natural magic as they reside in inside actual reality and chronicles stated voids and light main power resides outside of reality with void lords and main forces of light as unnatural would mean something which wouldn't exist naturally and energies outside reality is extremely unnatural while energies from the reality itself are all natural as such death and fel is always natural. I'm not calling extermination of nelfs as they were changed from natural trolls by arcane energies as they are natural energies of reality.

[Ielenia]

1) Well kirin tors had longer ties with kingdom of silvermoon than any other alliance kingdom. Heck kirin tor wouldn't exists with silvermoon.

Dalaran already existed BEFORE the pact with Silvermoon. It only became a city of mages after that, though.

2) argent dawn members were before they became argent dawn members of scarlet crusade and they are hostile to both factions so ties to alliance don't really exists because of being members of Scarlets before.

Wrong. Scarlet Crusade members did not become Argent Dawn. When the remaining members of the Knights of the Silver Hand members started to become more fanatic,
the other members left, and formed the Argent Dawn. The 'fanatics' that remained formed the Scarlet Crusade.

[Dapower]

I just wanted to write how much I would enjoy having a game full of cruelty, divisonism, facism and pain but then I realized im a psycho to want it ever. Imma go get a therapist instead.

[Specialka]

I just wanted to write how much I would enjoy having a game full of cruelty, divisonism, facism and pain but then I realized im a psycho to want it ever. Imma go get a therapist instead.

Just check Warhammer and Warhammer 40k lore. There you go.

[Ardenaso]

Dalaran already existed BEFORE the pact with Silvermoon. It only became a city of mages after that, though.


Wrong. Scarlet Crusade members did not become Argent Dawn. When the remaining members of the Knights of the Silver Hand members started to become more fanatic,
the other members left, and formed the Argent Dawn. The 'fanatics' that remained formed the Scarlet Crusade.

the Scarlet Crusade was founded by Alexandros Mograine, Saidan Dathrohan, Abbendis, and some others.

after witnessing the treachery brought to Alexandros, Raymond George and Maxwell Tyrosus left and formed the Argent Dawn.

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It should also be noted that Argent Dawn/Crusade, Brotherhood of the Light, and Kirin Tor (originally, at least; but it's neutral again now, whatever) were never part of the Alliance. Sure they were part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, but they didn't pledge to Varian, the Kingdom of Stormwind, or the new Grand Alliance.

[Feanoro]

Just check Warhammer and Warhammer 40k lore. There you go.

But then he might realize how much Metzen ripped it off!

[Ielenia]

the Scarlet Crusade was founded by Alexandros Mograine, Saidan Dathrohan, Abbendis, and some others.

after witnessing the treachery brought to Alexandros, Raymond George and Maxwell Tyrosus left and formed the Argent Dawn.

"After the death of Alexandros Mograine, the survivors of the Knights of the Silver Hand became more zealous and fanatic. However, there were those who believed that their comrades had fallen from their once-noble purpose (most notably Lord Maxwell Tyrosus), and left to form their own order — the Argent Dawn. Those that did not break away from Grand Crusader Dathrohan's command formally named themselves the Scarlet Crusade."

Where did you get your quote from?

[Kiri]

It was mentioned that there were living species there as velen regretted their "fate" so its most likely sentient as they wouldn't really suffer if they weren't sentient and if they didn't suffer nothing to regret.

But how is that the same as being knowingly responsible of genocide? That is the pertinent question here. The only argument one could possibly make for that would be that the Draenei somehow led the Legion to these worlds, which somehow would otherwise wouldn't have been found. The Legion would have attacked these worlds anyway after all, so blaming the Draenei for that in any capacity would only work if that was the case. And I find that kind of hard to believe. Blaming refugees for what the people they are fleeing from did just strikes me as slightly missing the point.

The main criticism one could levy at the Draenei in that situation would be that they didn't help the inhabitants of that world fend off the Legion or take their members with them. That'd be somewhat fair, though the former would probably be futile and we don't really know if they could have carried and supplied more people. Certainly not the inhabitants of another full world.
And even that is not exactly a clear-cut situation, either. The only world that Velen tells us explicitly about in the Lesson short story is Fanlin'Deskor - and he makes it very clear that the Draenei were not able to communicate with its inhabitants in any way. It's easy to say "just save them", but if you can't even explain to them that a massive force of demons might be coming any day now, it is pretty hard to do even that. And even if you can communicate, making them believe it would be another matter entirely. Just look at the human kings in WC3 being unwilling to believe Medivh. The Draenei would have met the same issues. Thus, without being able to communicate or truly convince, the only way to save people, realistically, would have been to forcefully move them to the Exodar before fleeing, which would come with issues of its own.
Naturally, there were probably also races that would have been able to communicate and willing to believe. We don't actually know what the Draenei did in those instances. They might even have tried to take them with, but not in sufficient numbers for a minimum viable population or so. We just don't have the info there.

With all of that, making a definitive statement that the Draenei are knowingly responsible for the genocide of millions of races strikes me as a stark misrepresentation of things we don't know a lot about. They certainly aren't saints who always do the right thing, but putting them on the same level as the Legion is just wrong.

[Feanoro]

Fel and death by its nature doesn't seek to bend universe to their will as have arbiter and alot more death forces in shadowlands which aren't evil and fel is only described as chaos nothing else, while void and light are both described as forces wanting bend reality to their will seen that light wants to turn planets to their ideal "crystal form" while void seeks to dominate the reality itself meaning void and light are the only actual evil forces of the cosmos.

Also lorewise from orcs it was stated the actual green skin colour is leaving and you can even see from thralls children who are brown which heavily imblies after grommash defeated mannoroth that fel corruption started leaving their bodies and while I'm not seeing curse of flesh going anywhere.

and lastly death and fel magic are natural magic as they reside in inside actual reality and chronicles stated voids and light main power resides outside of reality with void lords and main forces of light as unnatural would mean something which wouldn't exist naturally and energies outside reality is extremely unnatural while energies from the reality itself are all natural as such death and fel is always natural. I'm not calling extermination of nelfs as they were changed from natural trolls by arcane energies as they are natural energies of reality.

And yet I seem to recall multiple expansions fighting against fel and death magic powered world ending forces. I also recall fel being powered by killing and tortuously burning up souls, and statements in game and out how fel and death magics are evil. Besides, if these things are suddenly good and hunky dory as you're claiming, why call it fel "corruption"?

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But how is that the same as being knowingly responsible of genocide? That is the pertinent question here. The only argument one could possibly make for that would be that the Draenei somehow led the Legion to these worlds, which somehow would otherwise wouldn't have been found. The Legion would have attacked these worlds anyway after all, so blaming the Draenei for that in any capacity would only work if that was the case. And I find that kind of hard to believe. Blaming refugees for what the people they are fleeing from did just strikes me as slightly missing the point.

The main criticism one could levy at the Draenei in that situation would be that they didn't help the inhabitants of that world fend off the Legion or take their members with them. That'd be somewhat fair, though the former would probably be futile and we don't really know if they could have carried and supplied more people. Certainly not the inhabitants of another full world.
And even that is not exactly a clear-cut situation, either. The only world that Velen tells us explicitly about in the Lesson short story is Fanlin'Deskor - and he makes it very clear that the Draenei were not able to communicate with its inhabitants in any way. It's easy to say "just save them", but if you can't even explain to them that a massive force of demons might be coming any day now, it is pretty hard to do even that. And even if you can communicate, making them believe it would be another matter entirely. Just look at the human kings in WC3 being unwilling to believe Medivh. The Draenei would have met the same issues. Thus, without being able to communicate or truly convince, the only way to save people, realistically, would have been to forcefully move them to the Exodar before fleeing, which would come with issues of its own.
Naturally, there were probably also races that would have been able to communicate and willing to believe. We don't actually know what the Draenei did in those instances. They might even have tried to take them with, but not in sufficient numbers for a minimum viable population or so. We just don't have the info there.

With all of that, making a definitive statement that the Draenei are knowingly responsible for the genocide of millions of races strikes me as a stark misrepresentation of things we don't know a lot about. They certainly aren't saints who always do the right thing, but putting them on the same level as the Legion is just wrong.

Because it's a meme among Horde posters here, grasping at straws trying to "prove" Alliance is every bit as bad as the Horde. Hilariously, they NEVER touch on the Horde directly causing a body count, but even if we accepted their nonsense, the body count would belong to the Legion.