Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[matrix123mko]

That's some trash damage control. Saying the forces of shadowlands aren't "evil" is an assumption. The lore on those factions is basically nothing since it's still in alpha stage and subject to change. Both fel and death seek to destroy and corrupt everything. Death and fel magic are "evil", read the lore.

"Fel magic is a destructive form of magic often used by demons and the members of the Burning Legion. It is demonic, entropic, chaotic and extremely volatile. Its use by the wielder, or its effects on the victim, frequently results in an alteration of the individual, colloquially called corruption. "

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fel

Fel corrupted Orcs deserve to be exterminated according to your own logic.

Death magic is even worse.

"Death is a cosmic force that holds sway over every living thing in the Great Dark Beyond. Acting as a counterbalance to life, it is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything towards a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. It manifests in the form of necromantic magic and is represented by the Shadowlands, the realm of the dead."


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death#In_lore

All undead should be completely destroyed according to your own logic. Congrats, you shot yourself in the foot.

We have seen void arakkoa and void touched broken who aren't evil. In fact there are dev statements that say void isn't evil. That is canon fact.

"The Void is not necessarily 'evil', it is a primal force with its morality characterized by how it is wielded"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void


Also a mechagnome already found a way to reverse the curse of flesh. So it is possible.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Re-Cursive

In fact, every cosmic force and mortals are equally evil. Alliance players, however deny that absolute truth.

[Syegfryed]

? I'm not just talking about Azeroth. The Orcs had no problem scouring everyone on Draenor proper as well, no demon blood required, neither was it required to invade Azeroth via the Dark Portal or try to conquer it again once there. Mists and WoD pretty much destroyed the WC3-made idea that Orcs's mistakes could mostly be attributed to the demons. They're perfectly capable of embarking on genocidal ventures by themselves like big boys.

so? the legion would go there anyway, they in fact did, so? why blame orcs?

im just showing how this hypocrite argument just don't work

And what proof is required? The Legion was made to burn all worlds.

the ones with world souls yes

That's the entire point, and every other demon plus Illidan likes to remind us of such in Legion proper. Chronicles went to great pains to highlight this, World Souls are merely a priority just like they are for the Void Lords.

so, they would wait a long time or not even find draenor at all, since none of the races there were strong enough to call the legion attention

I don't own chronicles, what exactly does that say?

Sargeras created it with the purpose of destroying all world-souls in the universe in order to prevent the void lords from corrupting them, which would lead to the birth of a dark titan, a being of unspeakable evil that would utterly annihilate and consume the universe

So why blame humans for taking troll lands then?

this cyclic argument will just go on forever

[Ielenia]

1) and when was alliance established? Closest ties dalaran had to lordaeron whos people are.part of the horde.

It was one of the original seven human city-states that emerged from the fall of the Arathorian Empire.

2) Ashbringer comic pretty much shows alexandros wearing scarlet crusade tabard and they left aftet the death of alexandros.

"After the death of Alexandros Mograine, the survivors of the Knights of the Silver Hand became more zealous and fanatic. However, there were those who believed that their comrades had fallen from their once-noble purpose (most notably Lord Maxwell Tyrosus), and left to form their own order — the Argent Dawn. Those that did not break away from Grand Crusader Dathrohan's command formally named themselves the Scarlet Crusade."

[Kiri]

so? the legion would go there anyway, they in fact did, so? why blame orcs?

im just showing how this hypocrite argument just don't work


the ones with world souls yes


so, they would wait a long time or not even find draenor at all, since none of the races there were strong enough to call the legion attention


this cyclic argument will just go on forever

Yeah, that was the (retconned) purpose. But doesn't really mean the Legion left every non-worldsoul, non-Draenei-touched world alone was my point.

Though I guess the cyclic nature of the argument in part comes from these retcons to begin with. Initially, the Burning Legion was presented as these omnicidal maniacs in the story, hell-bent on conquering all the worlds in the universe. The whole World-Soul motive only came later, and Blizz is often too lazy to ensure that such things jive with older lore. That's why it is always a bit problematic to read too much into things not explicitly stated.
Especially since, as is often the case, we are probably putting more thought into this than even Blizzard's writers are. There is a whole lot to explore and discuss with the flight of the Draenei, for example. They were refugees who had just seen most of their civilization willingly join an impossibly powerful being that leads a destructive crusade across the galaxy, intent on killing millions, if not trillions of beings and know that they can't do a thing to truly stop that, just run and hide.
How does one retain hope in such a situation?
How does one retain one's, for lack of a better word, 'humanity' in such a sitation?
Is it better to warn and arm the other civilizations you meet, even though fighting such a primal force of destruction is kind of pointless, or is it better to let them live out the rest of their lives in blissful ignorance?
Can you even trust completely alien species enough to try and elevate them to a point where they could fend for themselves, or does that risk them turning on you?

There are many questions, many plots to discover. But it feels like the writers really didn't. They just wanted to paint that bleak picture of the Legion having conquered almost all there is to conquer, so they used the Draenei/Velen as a vehicle to convey that, given that they were the only space-faring race on Azeroth that could give an account. We will never truly get answers to these questions, so we can only have cyclical arguments that pit headcanon against headcanon, sadly.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, that was the (retconned) purpose. But doesn't really mean the Legion left every non-worldsoul, non-Draenei-touched world alone was my point.

even if it was retconed, they still brought the legion with then, they could spend a millenia or milion of years without even reaching Draenor, saying it was ok the draenei not say a single thing because 'they would die anyway" then come here say "horde was wrong to come here and kill everyone" is dumb because the Legion would go to azeroth anyway, is a cyclic argument that go nowhere

[Terongor]

I don't own chronicles, what exactly does that say?



Again, we don't know whether or not they tried and what happened. As noted, any number of things may have happened, and they may well have taken a few individuals from those races with them. We don't know. You just decide to believe the version that means you don't have to 'forgive' them.

And actually, yes, they are forced to stop. The Genedar, like other dimensional fortresses, do not just fly through space like normal Spaceships, they slip into a different dimension and then back out again somewhere else. Kind of like making a jump like in many contemporary franchises. They travel from world to world nigh instantaneously, but they can't just travel in-between worlds forever, since the jumps alone drain the Naaru powering it. Just traversing the Twisting Nether for a thousand years is not a viable option, even if the Genedar in and of itself would not need supplies. Which it probably would, given that it isn't made for prolonged space travel.

Also, while some antiheroes do bad things for good reasons, that doesn't mean anyone who does so is automatically one. Sargeras may have started out as a Well-Intentioned Terrorist initially, but at some point, he pretty much moved into the territory of the "he who fights monsters" trope and became a villain.
That's pretty easy to see in his methods, really. Killing World Souls to keep them from being corrupted? Sure, that is an anti-hero thing to do. But enslaving/murdering the populations of those planets? That's not. If he cared to do so, he could have used his fleet of spaceships to evacuate the people of said planets, resettled them, then gone and stab the planet itself. That would be anti-hero behaviour. Letting demons lose at those words, killing, torturing and maiming millions when it is not directly necessary to achieve your goal? That's villain behaviour.

Priest order halls was a dimensional spaceship which didn't need to stop anywhere and it was inside twisting nether taken before the end of Btdp and BtDP-legion was in years in twisting nether over 1000 years and we have no knowledge of it and velen in his short story never stated that he saved any one just leaving the planets taken how humane velen is it would have being mentioned.

those people are suspectible to void corruption too so still an antihero.

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It was one of the original seven human city-states that emerged from the fall of the Arathorian Empire.


"After the death of Alexandros Mograine, the survivors of the Knights of the Silver Hand became more zealous and fanatic. However, there were those who believed that their comrades had fallen from their once-noble purpose (most notably Lord Maxwell Tyrosus), and left to form their own order — the Argent Dawn. Those that did not break away from Grand Crusader Dathrohan's command formally named themselves the Scarlet Crusade."

So? Dalaran was established by mages who were taught by silvermoons citizens and kingdom whose population and kingdom who was closest to dalaran is pratically horde member now lordaeron. While Gilneas always treated dalaran like shit, Alterac isn't a member of the alliance and arathi was just re-established by alliance claiming it.

You see the wording "formally" meaning they were informally before that scarlet crusade thus wearing tabards and pratically its members. Also thats from wowpedia with no quotes to the source and wowpedia isn't officially blizzard site as such with quotes to blizzard originally it can be questioned.

[Ielenia]

So? Dalaran was established by mages

"Dalaran was one of several city-states that emerged as the Arathorian Empire declined. Long ago, most human magicians lived in Strom but eventually many fled leaving the restraining confines of Strom behind and traveled to Dalaran, where they hoped to use their new powers with greater freedom, wanting a place more suited to extensive use and study of magic."

Sounds like Dalaran already existed when the mages traveled there.

You see the wording "formally" meaning they were informally before that scarlet crusade thus wearing tabards and pratically its members. Also thats from wowpedia with no quotes to the source and wowpedia isn't officially blizzard site as such with quotes to blizzard originally it can be questioned.

It's still more than just your memories, unless you can produce a scan of the comic page where it shows Alexandros wearing the Scarlet Crusade tabard?

[Kiri]

even if it was retconed, they still brought the legion with then, they could spend a millenia or milion of years without even reaching Draenor, saying it was ok the draenei not say a single thing because 'they would die anyway" then come here say "horde was wrong to come here and kill everyone" is dumb because the Legion would go to azeroth anyway, is a cyclic argument that go nowhere

Well, they didn't really bring the Legion 'with them' is the point anyway. It's not like the Legion was able to accurately follow them to begin with, they just had scouts on the lookout for them. Even Teron'Gor just stumbled upon Draenor, finding them. It's not like they were following a trail of breadcrumbs from world to world following the Draenei, Kil'Jaeden's hunt was pretty much just sending people everywhere and report to him if they found signs of Draenei.
Worst case scenario, the Legion went a little bit out of their way to erase planets found that way before some others, but they'd been destroyed anyway. But honestly, that just means they put that world into a planet/species destruction time slot rather than another one. I am still a bit confused as to why it is necessary to try and paint the Draenei as the villains in this scenario when there is quite literally a villainous force devouring planets and civilizations going around.

Priest order halls was a dimensional spaceship which didn't need to stop anywhere and it was inside twisting nether taken before the end of Btdp and BtDP-legion was in years in twisting nether over 1000 years and we have no knowledge of it and velen in his short story never stated that he saved any one just leaving the planets taken how humane velen is it would have being mentioned.

those people are suspectible to void corruption too so still an antihero.

Let's be real here, no one had knowledge of Netherlight Temple during the original flight of the Naaru because it hadn't been invented yet on the meta level. That's what retroactive continuity does, if it is applied haphazardly - the Draenei suddenly have the technology to not just create footholds in the Twisting Nether indefinitely, but also hide them from the Legion. But they just for some reason decided to never use that to save more of their people in the past because Blizz didn't bother to close that plot hole.

As for the short story, it also never stated that they didn't try to help anyone they met. I'm not sure if even states that they met intelligent life outside that one instance. Yet, people here claim with absolute certainty somehow that they are responsible for the doom of, what was it, millions of species?

[Ardenaso]

2) Ashbringer comic pretty much shows alexandros wearing scarlet crusade tabard and they left aftet the death of alexandros.

Thank you. 10 characters

[Syegfryed]

Well, they didn't really bring the Legion 'with them' is the point anyway

they LITERALLY did, they ONLY went to draenor because the daenei went there, thats just a fact, there is no turning here.

. It's not like the Legion was able to accurately follow them to begin with, they just had scouts on the lookout for them. Even Teron'Gor just stumbled upon Draenor, finding them. It's not like they were following a trail of breadcrumbs from world to world following the Draenei, Kil'Jaeden's hunt was pretty much just sending people everywhere and report to him if they found signs of Draenei.

thus, they only find draenor because Draeneis left a trail to be found and lead the legion there, simple as that.

Worst case scenario, the Legion went a little bit out of their way to erase planets found that way before some others, but they'd been destroyed anyway. But honestly, that just means they put that world into a planet/species destruction time slot rather than another one. I am still a bit confused as to why it is necessary to try and paint the Draenei as the villains in this scenario when there is quite literally a villainous force devouring planets and civilizations going around.

because they damjn brought the legion to the planet didn't warn anyone about it and always left the denizens to their own fate despite they broughting their doom

again, using the argument of "they would go there sooner or later anyway" is a dumb argument and could be used to defend the horde attacking azeroth "the legion would come here anyway pal"

[Terongor]

"Dalaran was one of several city-states that emerged as the Arathorian Empire declined. Long ago, most human magicians lived in Strom but eventually many fled leaving the restraining confines of Strom behind and traveled to Dalaran, where they hoped to use their new powers with greater freedom, wanting a place more suited to extensive use and study of magic."

Sounds like Dalaran already existed when the mages traveled there.


It's still more than just your memories, unless you can produce a scan of the comic page where it shows Alexandros wearing the Scarlet Crusade tabard?

And that happened after the trolls wars as arathor agreed to help silvermoon if they taugth humans to use arcane magic.

well on this you can clearly see what tabard alexandros mograine is using https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3E6W6-rRGA

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you. 10 characters

Pretty sure thats a Scarlet Crusade tabard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3E6W6-rRGA

- - - Updated - - -

Well, they didn't really bring the Legion 'with them' is the point anyway. It's not like the Legion was able to accurately follow them to begin with, they just had scouts on the lookout for them. Even Teron'Gor just stumbled upon Draenor, finding them. It's not like they were following a trail of breadcrumbs from world to world following the Draenei, Kil'Jaeden's hunt was pretty much just sending people everywhere and report to him if they found signs of Draenei.
Worst case scenario, the Legion went a little bit out of their way to erase planets found that way before some others, but they'd been destroyed anyway. But honestly, that just means they put that world into a planet/species destruction time slot rather than another one. I am still a bit confused as to why it is necessary to try and paint the Draenei as the villains in this scenario when there is quite literally a villainous force devouring planets and civilizations going around.



Let's be real here, no one had knowledge of Netherlight Temple during the original flight of the Naaru because it hadn't been invented yet on the meta level. That's what retroactive continuity does, if it is applied haphazardly - the Draenei suddenly have the technology to not just create footholds in the Twisting Nether indefinitely, but also hide them from the Legion. But they just for some reason decided to never use that to save more of their people in the past because Blizz didn't bother to close that plot hole.

As for the short story, it also never stated that they didn't try to help anyone they met. I'm not sure if even states that they met intelligent life outside that one instance. Yet, people here claim with absolute certainty somehow that they are responsible for the doom of, what was it, millions of species?

It really doesn't matter that is retroactively made blizzard made it and it didn't need to stop and as such those spaceship can stay up indefinetly and draenais have no excuse for landing.

Well warcraft universed is based on real on world and its legend as such in real world if there is an inhabitable planets its around 99% sure there are species who have evolved there and we have no planet in wc universe which we know of that didn't have any species to live on it as such you hypothesizing that there were inhabitable planets with no species on has backing in wc universe or out of it.

[dotsown]

wow is becoming world of hordecraft, they have failed to fix the snowballing effect of everyone going to horde

[Trassk]

The real reason is quite obvious. It's because the alliance men aren't satisfying the alliance women

Male humans are always intent on running off to war and serving the king leaving their wives home alone.
Male night elves are either just sleeping all day or fixated now on sylvanas instead of their wives
Male draenei are to busy worshipping the Narru to care about their wives (and don't get me started on the light forged ones)
Male gnomes are just to short in every degree to do anything, plus to focused on machines rather then ther women.
Male dwarves come close to being good for it, as long as you catch them before they pass out from drinking.
Male worgen, the alliance women pretty much decided they don't want to get cursed or have werewolf babies.
Male pandaren are more interested in food, old stories and sleeping then doing anything else. (Same applies to horde ones)
Male kul Tiran have sadly developed scurvy making them less desirable in the bedroom.
Male void elves are heavily into tentacle hentei and this is a bit to far for some alliance women.
Male dark iron similar to regular dwarves but with the added fact they keep burning down the houses of alliance women with their flaming beards.
Male mechagnomes replaced it with wrench so serves other purposes now.

This is why the alliance women figured screw this, and are having extramarital affairs with the horde boys.

Male orcs have no problem unleashing the beast all night long, same with mag'har, although regular orcs can go the extra with blood fury.
Male tauren can give alliance women a touch of nature and the great outdoors, same with highmountain.
Male trolls are just crazy under the sheets, plus they have no problem mesmerising alliance women with dah voodoo, same with zandalari.
Male forsaken.. okay I got nothing they probably don't even have anything left down their, rotted away.
Male blood elves are.. okay they are pretty vain and would take do long preening themselves before getting to the act.
Male goblins are pimps, if you can afford to pay them.
Male nightbourne would probably want some freaky cosplay before they get to the act, but they get there.
Male vulpera, the problem they face is the alliance women think their so cute they just want to pet them rather then get to anything right away.

So when it comes down to it, the women of the alliance are more likely to burn the midnight oil while their husbands are away with several horde boys sneeking in after dark.
This is the real reason alliance based factions opened their doors to the horde

[Kiri]

It really doesn't matter that is retroactively made blizzard made it and it didn't need to stop and as such those spaceship can stay up indefinetly and draenais have no excuse for landing.

Well warcraft universed is based on real on world and its legend as such in real world if there is an inhabitable planets its around 99% sure there are species who have evolved there and we have no planet in wc universe which we know of that didn't have any species to live on it as such you hypothesizing that there were inhabitable planets with no species on has backing in wc universe or out of it.

The issue is that you turn laziness on the side of the developers into character motivations, which is questionable. Blizzard changed the past capabilities of the Draenei afterwards, but didn't give a report on how that affects the flight of the Draenei. Your stance is to just say "nothing changed, the Draenei were just jerks about it". But that is meaningless as Blizzard didn't give us the revised history version of the flight yet.

Just like we don't have official accounts as to how many species the Draenei interacted with. You just make an assumption that it has to be a lot of them. There isn't exactly a lot to debate there, you believe one thing, I say there is too little info to make any call. Pointless to discuss with someone who already made up their mind about an unknown.

they LITERALLY did, they ONLY went to draenor because the daenei went there, thats just a fact, there is no turning here.

thus, they only find draenor because Draeneis left a trail to be found and lead the legion there, simple as that.

because they damjn brought the legion to the planet didn't warn anyone about it and always left the denizens to their own fate despite they broughting their doom

again, using the argument of "they would go there sooner or later anyway" is a dumb argument and could be used to defend the horde attacking azeroth "the legion would come here anyway pal"

And it is a fact how? My information comes from Rise of the Horde, where it is described as Talgath coming across Draenor and only finding Draenei traces once there. Kil'Jaeden was looking for a race like the Orcs to begin with to corrupt, so with or without the Draenei being there, things would probably have developed similarly.

This is the distinction here - the Draenei didn't bring the Legion somewhere, the Legion was searching for them on whatever world they could find. It's like Jaina and Thrall going to Kalimdor in WC3 and the Scourge and Burning Legion arriving there afterwards as well. That's not them 'bringing the doom', that's just people fleeing a wave of death and destruction and it catching up to them.

I just don't get this apparent need to try and have the Draenei, victims of genocide, to be as bad as others who willingly commit genocide. Like with you constantly bringing up the orcish Horde for some reason. The Draenei have enough faults as it is and things to legitimately criticize them for, but blaming them for the actions of the Burning Legion is just kind of pointless. I'll never be convinced by that, simply because responsibility for a genocide lies with those who commit murder and slavery, not those who flee from it.

[ButterBeast]

The one that was so scared of Jaina? Really proud of such powerful character.

what does that have to do with anything? generally curious of your line of thought it has nothing to do with what i replied to.

[Verdugo]

what does that have to do with anything? generally curious of your line of thought it has nothing to do with what i replied to.

The most prominent Horde mage is supposed to be scared of a stupid human.

[Amaterasu65]

The real reason is quite obvious. It's because the alliance men aren't satisfying the alliance women

Male humans are always intent on running off to war and serving the king leaving their wives home alone.
Male night elves are either just sleeping all day or fixated now on sylvanas instead of their wives
Male draenei are to busy worshipping the Narru to care about their wives (and don't get me started on the light forged ones)
Male gnomes are just to short in every degree to do anything, plus to focused on machines rather then ther women.
Male dwarves come close to being good for it, as long as you catch them before they pass out from drinking.
Male worgen, the alliance women pretty much decided they don't want to get cursed or have werewolf babies.
Male pandaren are more interested in food, old stories and sleeping then doing anything else. (Same applies to horde ones)
Male kul Tiran have sadly developed scurvy making them less desirable in the bedroom.
Male void elves are heavily into tentacle hentei and this is a bit to far for some alliance women.
Male dark iron similar to regular dwarves but with the added fact they keep burning down the houses of alliance women with their flaming beards.
Male mechagnomes replaced it with wrench so serves other purposes now.

This is why the alliance women figured screw this, and are having extramarital affairs with the horde boys.

Male orcs have no problem unleashing the beast all night long, same with mag'har, although regular orcs can go the extra with blood fury.
Male tauren can give alliance women a touch of nature and the great outdoors, same with highmountain.
Male trolls are just crazy under the sheets, plus they have no problem mesmerising alliance women with dah voodoo, same with zandalari.
Male forsaken.. okay I got nothing they probably don't even have anything left down their, rotted away.
Male blood elves are.. okay they are pretty vain and would take do long preening themselves before getting to the act.
Male goblins are pimps, if you can afford to pay them.
Male nightbourne would probably want some freaky cosplay before they get to the act, but they get there.
Male vulpera, the problem they face is the alliance women think their so cute they just want to pet them rather then get to anything right away.

So when it comes down to it, the women of the alliance are more likely to burn the midnight oil while their husbands are away with several horde boys sneeking in after dark.
This is the real reason alliance based factions opened their doors to the horde

Ironic when all prominent thalassian females went after humans.

[Shaetha]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

I just assumed it was because the people attempting to counter actual existential threats realize the war between the horde and alliance is fucking stupid.

[Trassk]

Ironic when all prominent thalassian females went after humans.

Well they were windrunners, and the windrunner sisters are the Kardashians of Warcraft.

[Ielenia]

well on this you can clearly see what tabard alexandros mograine is using https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3E6W6-rRGA

... That doesn't mean anything. Of course Alexandros would be wearing the Scarlet Crusade tabard after the Scarlet Crusade has been formed.