How the European Union may not survive the Coronavirus

[Deja Thoris]

The reality of it is we have a far more severe situation on our hands then anyone else, that's not disputable

It is disputable. Since this hasn't run its course yet. I was in South Africa and SA is a couple of weeks behind the EU. Nigeria was a week or 2 behind SA and so on. Europe was "next in line" after China, the USA behind and so on. The USA and Africa are still coming in this. Don't forget South America.

The response has been quite good if I'm honest. Europe isn't generally authoritarian and its easy to say in hindsight that you shoulda / coulda / woulda done things differently. The advice given in the UK which is where I am now is changing quickly based on the situation in the country, thats right and proper. It's not China where you can weld people shut in their flats and execute people so you can say their death wasn't from COVID19 (I jest)

Also, lets not kid ourselves. China went from a steep upwards curve no zero infections overnight. Anyone who can do maths knows thats a fucking lie. Russia claims "its all fine" yet they are building hospitals and showing Putin mingling with people (who they test before they allow them to meet him). So this is happening in other places too, yet its just swept under the carpet, and it will infect many more / last longer because of it.

Europe seems bad because it has its shit together and its transparent.

[Gaidax]

You just can't wrap your mind around what the EU is and how it works, do you? When the EU closed its outer borders it was actually the respective heads of state who decided to do that.

You're accusing the EU of being something it is not and then not doing everything it can when it simply does not have the authority to do those things.

That's clearly the issue of EU on institutional level.

Lack of coherent response towards emergencies is EU's disease. On one hand open and free borders are demanded union-wise, but when shit hits the fan it's suddenly "whelp, it's all up to sovereign governments". But said governments clearly don't get enough guidance on how to act in such a situation, after all they can't do just whatever, because rules and treaties do exist.

This means that EU needs to come up with actual institutional guidance for emergencies instead of being EU when all is good and then suddenly every man for himself when things turn sour.

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Europe seems bad because it has its shit together and its transparent.

Europe seems bad, because quite frankly, shit IS bad there. Even with China doctoring the numbers, likely to a staggering extent.

Italy is a nightmare scenario outright and there are 2 more countries going fast forward towards that, so it's not just perception and appearances.

[Acidbaron]

That's not universally true tbh. Greece has acted fairly fast in compared to others, which is why things are reasonably under control here, the health system is still completely stable and our PM's approval ratings are over 90%

Now you mention it we are not hearing much out of Greece when it comes to the virus at all. Do you have prior history with MERS or SARS?

[Mayhem]

That's clearly the issue of EU on institutional level.

Lack of coherent response towards emergencies is EU's disease. On one hand open and free borders are demanded union-wise, but when shit hits the fan it's suddenly "whelp, it's all up to sovereign governments". But said governments clearly don't get enough guidance on how to act in such a situation, after all they can't do just whatever, because rules and treaties do exist.

This means that EU needs to come up with actual institutional guidance for emergencies instead of being EU when all is good and then suddenly every man for himself when things turn sour.

Your lack of reading comprehension is disturbing. It's like telling you the sky is blue and also why it is blue and you're screaming back that the green sky is falling.

[Deja Thoris]

Europe seems bad, because quite frankly, shit IS bad there. Even with China doctoring the numbers, likely to a staggering extent.

Italy is a nightmare scenario outright and there are 2 more countries going fast forward towards that, so it's not just perception and appearances.

Yea, but theres a difference between "its bad because its the nature of these things to be bad" or "its bad because its been handled with zero competence"

I'd argue for the former. Lets be honest here. Rewind 2 months, who saw this coming to this extent? On 23 Feb Italy had 157 cases, now its ballooned to 59k+ in just one month. If, based on that information you'd have said, close the borders, stop life as we know it etc etc you'd have been written off as alarmist or a crackpot, but how quickly things change...

It's easy to criticise but I think its being handled well if I'm honest. Real life is messy and complicated, this isn't a textbook with decisions being made on perfect information.

[ati87]

China's criminal negligence aside, I do think Europe fell prey to its open borders policy this time around.

I think Europe's vision is how things should be, but currently it breaks down every time when fast actions needed to be taken EU-wide. They just don't seem to have any sort of effective emergency mechanism and it's something that keeps biting EU in its ass every time last decade.

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There is little doubt that just about every country got caught with their pants down. I am quite sure that governments know about this shit faster and sooner than general populace, that's what intelligence agencies are for.

Yet despite that fact almost everyone got caught off guard. Guess much of it was about trying to save $$ while hoping to wing it, after all it's not first time this happens this century, but this time it was much more severe than usual.

Iran, US and every other non European country does have not have an open border policy but they still got hit hard. Italy got hit hard because it's a populair destination for tourist, and frankly just banning Chinese tourist would not have worked anyway.

Only real solution we have is improve/increase testing so that we know who has minor symptoms (they are the deal danger) and get a vaccine out there ASAP.

[JohnBrown1917]

You just can't wrap your mind around what the EU is and how it works, do you? When the EU closed its outer borders it was actually the respective heads of state who decided to do that.

You're accusing the EU of being something it is not and then not doing everything it can when it simply does not have the authority to do those things.

Same old same old with these folk, probably don't even get that most of the spread is due to stuff like business trips and tourism.


..And how the open borders are between Shengen countries, not EU countries. Not to mention Shengen countries can still lock down borders if they wish too.

[ati87]

Same old same old with these folk, probably don't even get that most of the spread is due to stuff like business trips and tourism.


..And how the open borders are between Shengen countries, not EU countries. Not to mention Shengen countries can still lock down borders if they wish too.

Silly suggestion tbh.
So you ''closed'' the physical border but that is not how this disease has spread across the entire world. It spread mostly because of air travel and unless countries where willing to stop there own citizens in entering the country closing that method of travel is still pointless. Restrictions in travel only work if you prevent everybody and everything, Trumps EU ban was for example undermined by allowing the UK and it's own citizens to still enter the country.

Germany has the best response so far if you look at how many people have been infected and how many people have died.

[Mihalik]

No there isn't, Churchill envisioned a European Union as something to bring France/Germany together. He was fundamentally opposed to the idea of the UK ever being part of it.

Really? Let's see shall we?

So let's start with the most ambivalent part.

https://www.cvce.eu/en/obj/address_g...da974f42c.html

Move on to

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/23/eu.past - a varied collection of statements and first hand accounts.

and a big picture.

http://theconversation.com/what-chur...n-europe-36613

You might not like the fact that Churchill was very much pro EU and pro Britain in the EU, but he was. Eurosceptics trying to claim Churchill as one of their own is akin to modern Republicans trying to claim Abraham Lincoln as one of their own.

You drifted away from Churchill, he is still where he always was.

[Skroe]

The United States response, for all the shit they've done is still miles better. The mainstream media has focused on the US, because hey that's popular but Europe is at the center of the pandemic.

Over half of all known cases world wide in Europe, over 7.000 deaths ( out of just over 13.000 in the world ), but by all means tell me how "wrong" I am when the handling of this crisis has been nothing short of cataclysmic.

Those numbers are from the ECDC: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/geogra...019-ncov-cases

All of this while various countries have closed their borders, seized medical supplies that were merely transiting, and refused to aid those countries that so desperately need it.

This is horseshit and you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading it around.

The saving Grace of the United States is that around half the population live in suburban areas. About 25 percent live in urban and 25 percent in rural areas. Large portions of the country are infra-structurally social distanced already. For example I live in Massachusetts, in a cul-du-sac on about 2 acres of property. My town of about 20,000-ish is largely homes on .5 - 2 acres. In fact there was a major local protest incident in just the past year about building multi-story, multi family homes in the community. People don't want that around here. They want one family, one home, one plot of land.

By contrast the urban population of Italy is 70%. In Germany it's 77%. In the UK it's 83%. France is about 80%. Spain is about 80%.

The very thing that Europeans have decried about us for decades and American progressives have lamented - our sprawl, our large properties, our car culture and lack of use and investment mass transit - is going to be the thing that saves us.

Make no mistake, from a domestic angle, this is the death sentence for encouraging Americans to embrace those things. You're going to see mass city-flight after this.

But let's be clear, the US has done basically nothing right in this entire affair. This richest and most technologically advanced country in the history of the world didn't have a stockpile suitable to support only one of the most foreseen scenarios laid out. We can't produce the active ingredients to a host of medicines domestically. In our epic harlotry, we have to turn to domestic clothes makers to fabricate things that we outsourced to the likes of Communist China.

But worst of all is the testing. Donald Trump knew from US intelligence in January, and he did nothing. My brother and his 6 week old infant are self isolating right now, unable to get tested for exposure even though he may have been. In the most powerful country in the world. Because Donald Trump meantweeted rather than did his job.

I have to to a supermarket two towns over to get meat. Hand sanitizer and rubber gloves? Forget it. All because people are terrified to work and stockpiling because Donald Trump's government didn't roll out mass testing in February. When he could have.

I have to help my partially immune-compromised father go do errands, constantly disinfecting the car every-time he enters and exits, because Donald Trump didn't roll out mass testing and called it a hoax.

Today there are 400 dead and nearly 35,000 infected. In a few weeks time, it will probably larger than 9/11.

Most of them avoidable.

Next quarter, we are looking at a 30%-50% contracting in GDP and unemployment spiking to probably around 9% by December, but potentially as high as 15%. Small business, the bedrock of our economy, is going to face an epic liquidity crisis. That $350 billion small business rescue plan? It's too small by far. It should be $1 trillion alone, every three months.

All because the government of Donald Trump, the most powerful and technologically advanced nation the world has ever known, failed in its most basic duty, to protect its people. Instead he spent his time tweeting.

So I don't want to hear for a second there is one remotely redeemable thing about the job the US government has done. Our problems here only lag Italy, but the catastrophe we face will be lesser only in that we are a nation of suburbs unlike Europe which are nations of cities. And in the places very much like Europe in density - New York and San Francisco - the Wuhan Virus is ripping through them like wild fire.

I'm going to tell you how this ends. The American president you've spent 4 years giving credit to for one reason or another? He's going to be lucky to escape with this with his head attached to his body. The mass casualties are inbound, and Americans will blame him for it. And all you very clever people who spent years rationalizing why to give the Worst American alive the benefit of a doubt will have an ocean of blood on your conscience. Personally I'm increasingly of the opinion that if the American people are so corrupted by money and fear or risk that they don't ensure Donald Trump spends the rest of his life living in mortal terror an angry crowd will bust through his door and rip him limb from limb, that I don't want any part of whatever is going on here anymore. I'll take my talents to the highest bidder, wherever they are, live the best and most egotistic life I can, and not worry about if my grandchildren are living in the dilapidated ruins of a collapsed empire, fighting for the last scraps of bread before winter, or whatever happens in the thermopocalypse.

This is very much a "what's the point of the US Government anyway" moment. All I can say is thank god for the Government of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Wanna know what the sad part of this is? While it's very likely that the US will engage in retributive action against the greatest villains of this saga - the Chinese Communist Party - for years to come, I have little down we can count on the moral and economic harlotry of the European Union to bend over once more for the Communists hawking their cheap wares, and letting the likes of Huawei in, all to save a little money and to sell some consumer goods to the world's largest consumer market.

[CostinR]

@Skroe: I've said before on this very forum that one of the only reason the United States got away with it so far, and they are still in a better position then Europe right now despite what's being unleashed in New York at this very moment, is that they got very lucky in particular with a travel ban at the very end of January.

Does Trump deserve to be nailed to the wall for the fact he screwed around in the entire month of February? Yes that's become absolutely clear, especially with the recent intelligence reports that have laid it all clear how badly he screwed it up, and not just him: If I was an American at this stage I'd be demanding his head, and the heads of every single member of the gang of eight, if not all the people on House and Senate Intelligence committees who were all briefed on the seriousness of the matter and did precisely fuck all.

Europe still fucked it up worse, and that is not any kind of excuse or defense of Trump, it simply paints our dear leaders in a far worse light then I could have ever imagined. Europe has intelligence agencies, and they without a doubt told our leaders the same thing US intelligence told Trump, we don't just have a big flashy Washington Post like article to prove...yet.

You argue that because of our massive urban population that it's worse then the United States in Europe, true enough but that doesn't excuse the absolutely criminal incompetence on display from our leaders.

South Korea managed to contain the virus and their population is heavily concentrated in Seoul. Europe hasn't, they didn't even start trying until it was far too late, America hasn't and China is lying out of their ass when they claim they have.

When this over the following should be held accountable for their criminal handling of this entire affair:

- The Chinese Communist Party for what they unleashed in trying to cover up the virus, downplaying, holding back critical information about person to person transmission.
- Donald Trump especially and every single politician in the United States who was briefed by US intelligence on the seriousness of the matter and did nothing.
- The leaders of the European Union and leaders of individual European Countries who screwed around for the most part during the entire month of February.

Wanna know what the sad part of this is? While it's very likely that the US will engage in retributive action against the greatest villains of this saga - the Chinese Communist Party - for years to come, I have little down we can count on the moral and economic harlotry of the European Union to bend over once more for the Communists hawking their cheap wares, and letting the likes of Huawei in, all to save a little money and to sell some consumer goods to the world's largest consumer market.

If the way many people in Europe have responded to this crisis is any indication then you're quite correct about what's going to happen. Even assuming Europe survives this intact, a rather big bloody if that's getting more and more unlikely by the day considering how bad this is getting, then yes I'd expect Europe to bend over to China once again.

As far as I see there's pre-Wuhan Virus and post-Wuhan virus, and if in the post-Wuhan virus world you don't want to nail every single person responsible for this cataclysm to the wall then there's no negotiation. No one gets a free pass on this.

[Acidbaron]

Your "disgust" of EU leaders(hip) is based on so many assumptions @CostinR that your bias is clear as day. You find it being dealt worse because you hold the US government to some higher standard because it suits the rest of your political views, which is perverse that you try to capitalize on an epidemic to score some political points.

Actually hold up now it makes sense why you are a fan of Trump, you're part of the deplorable club as human decency is far to be found. As stated earlier you are not criticizing the EU based on what you know, you are doing it based on what you think you know.

Any poster can come in here and make dubious claims about the EU handling of the situation and you would not just buy it but accept it as an absolute truth. While the harsh reality is, if the EU was not there and you had to rely solely on the US you would be a living in a third world country, plundered by Russia once more without zero future prospects for you and those around you.

In all your whining over the last few days not once have you elaborated why the EU handling is worse, not once and by that i mean actual 1 to 1 examples in the time line this transpired and based on actual facts not fabrications that suit your perverted mind.

[CostinR]

In all your whining over the last few days not once have you elaborated why the EU handling is worse, not once and by that i mean actual 1 to 1 examples in the time line this transpired and based on actual facts not fabrications that suit your perverted mind.

You mean beyond the thousands of bodies accounting for over half the world wide deaths from the coronavirus?

But let's go with the clear and obvious: Travel bans and quarantine. At the end of January/Early February the United States, Italy, Australia, Japan and others instituted travels bans to and from China. Fortune has an article dated February 6th with these restrictions by non-EU countries:

https://fortune.com/2020/02/06/count...s-coronavirus/

That's from middle of February it is not a complete list but it does have many examples.

Australia:

Passengers who’ve transited through or have been in mainland China on or after Feb. 1 won’t be allowed to transit or enter Australia, though this doesn’t apply to airline crew. Australian nationals and residents who’ve transited through or have been in mainland China on or after Feb. 1 will be required to self-quarantine for 14 days from their arrival into Australia.

Japan:

Foreigners who have been in the Hubei Province in the past 14 days are not allowed to enter Japan. Chinese with passports issued in Hubei are not allowed to enter.

South Korea:

Foreigners or non-residents who have been in the Hubei Province in the past 14 days are not allowed to enter. Korean visas issued by the Wuhan Consulate in the Hubei Province are invalidated. Mainland Chinese with a passport issued in Hubei are not allowed to enter. Mainland Chinese nationals are also required to have a visa, even those only transiting through

It goes on. Fact is this isn't just about US vs EU because many countries imposed travel bans with Outside of Italy imposing as a country their own travel ban you don't have the situation of European countries doing it. You DO have airlines restricting or outright canceling their flights to and from China, but country wide or on a EU level? No. The best we had was that most countries in the Schengen area, with the notable exception of France, stopped issuing visas. Brilliant job there.

But no full on travel ban in Europe, no quarantine either. There is no assumption here. Many countries around the world, some of which like South Korea and Japan that have some of the biggest urban sprawls on the planet, took swift and effective measures to contain the outbreak and many of them have.

I made a mistake in using the US as a counter example, simply because it's convenient and well known what the US did and did not do to handle the crisis but the factual situation is that Europe didn't just handle this crisis worse then America, it handled it worse then many other countries including Russia*, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, Israel and many others.

* Russia could very well be lying about their numbers.

[Xarkan]

Your "disgust" of EU leaders(hip) is based on so many assumptions @CostinR that your bias is clear as day. You find it being dealt worse because you hold the US government to some higher standard because it suits the rest of your political views, which is perverse that you try to capitalize on an epidemic to score some political points.

Actually hold up now it makes sense why you are a fan of Trump, you're part of the deplorable club as human decency is far to be found. As stated earlier you are not criticizing the EU based on what you know, you are doing it based on what you think you know.

Any poster can come in here and make dubious claims about the EU handling of the situation and you would not just buy it but accept it as an absolute truth. While the harsh reality is, if the EU was not there and you had to rely solely on the US you would be a living in a third world country, plundered by Russia once more without zero future prospects for you and those around you.

In all your whining over the last few days not once have you elaborated why the EU handling is worse, not once and by that i mean actual 1 to 1 examples in the time line this transpired and based on actual facts not fabrications that suit your perverted mind.

I am not sure if things could not have been.. better?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/cor...orona-hotspot/

Springs to mind

[Mayhem]

I am not sure if things could not have been.. better?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/cor...orona-hotspot/

Springs to mind

And yet our great leader is praised by germans as some wonderboy who they'd love to have as their chancellor. I tell you when this is over we're going to have protests, not every week but every day, these fuckers in office don't see what's coming for them.

[Acidbaron]

You mean beyond the thousands of bodies accounting for over half the world wide deaths from the coronavirus?

But let's go with the clear and obvious: Travel bans and quarantine. At the end of January/Early February the United States, Italy, Australia, Japan and others instituted travels bans to and from China. Fortune has an article dated February 6th with these restrictions by non-EU countries:

https://fortune.com/2020/02/06/count...s-coronavirus/

That's from middle of February it is not a complete list but it does have many examples.

Australia:



Japan:



South Korea:



It goes on. Fact is this isn't just about US vs EU because many countries imposed travel bans with Outside of Italy imposing as a country their own travel ban you don't have the situation of European countries doing it. You DO have airlines restricting or outright canceling their flights to and from China, but country wide or on a EU level? No. The best we had was that most countries in the Schengen area, with the notable exception of France, stopped issuing visas. Brilliant job there.

But no full on travel ban in Europe, no quarantine either. There is no assumption here. Many countries around the world, some of which like South Korea and Japan that have some of the biggest urban sprawls on the planet, took swift and effective measures to contain the outbreak and many of them have.

I made a mistake in using the US as a counter example, simply because it's convenient and well known what the US did and did not do to handle the crisis but the factual situation is that Europe didn't just handle this crisis worse then America, it handled it worse then many other countries including Russia*, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, Israel and many others.

* Russia could very well be lying about their numbers.

Your point was the EU is doing a worse job than the US. Such a convenient mistake. Those countries have had previous experience with SARS and MERS.

[Pannonian]

And yet our great leader is praised by germans as some wonderboy who they'd love to have as their chancellor. I tell you when this is over we're going to have protests, not every week but every day, these fuckers in office don't see what's coming for them.

I hope these fuckers get crucified. They swept it under the rug so their hotels wouldn't loose tourists. Human trash.

[JohnBrown1917]

I am not sure if things could not have been.. better?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/cor...orona-hotspot/

Springs to mind

So nothing changed from how he handled most of the country being on fire?

[Slant]

In hindsight? Clearly Italy and the United States felt differently about it even back then as they did impose travel bans, and so did others. So no our "dear leaders" don't get to walk away and say they didn't know better, because they clearly did. They just didn't give a shit to act on it because they were afraid of how it would affect their economies. Well great job team Europe, you managed to infect large swathes of people, deeply damage the EU on an institutional level ( because closing our internal borders is a gigantic blow for the EU ) and effectively throw us all in a deep recession.

So, either they didn't know enough or they did know enough and acted as best as they could. Wtf is your problem, man? You won't get very far here with your silly attiude. Hating on leaders just because they're leaders basically translates into the response: How about you do it better?

Stop whinging.

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China's criminal negligence aside, I do think Europe fell prey to its open borders policy this time around.

It really did not. You lot have to understand how borders work. Every single person that has been abroad and got infected would have been abroad and get infected regardless. The only difference is, they'd have a visa in their pocket. "Close the borders!" is very, very seldom the correct solution to a problem.

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That's clearly the issue of EU on institutional level.

Lack of coherent response towards emergencies is EU's disease. On one hand open and free borders are demanded union-wise, but when shit hits the fan it's suddenly "whelp, it's all up to sovereign governments". But said governments clearly don't get enough guidance on how to act in such a situation, after all they can't do just whatever, because rules and treaties do exist.

This means that EU needs to come up with actual institutional guidance for emergencies instead of being EU when all is good and then suddenly every man for himself when things turn sour.

The EU acted coherently. Just because some countries jumped the gun and closed borders early doesn't mean the EU didn't act. This is how sovereign nations are permitted to act. And the EU only lagged behind 1-2 days. This is in comparison to the US STILL not implementing the proper measures. So wtf are you even talking about?

[Acidbaron]

I am not sure if things could not have been.. better?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/cor...orona-hotspot/

Springs to mind

Read about that giving in to lobby group wishes over that safety measures to contain the virus, they can claim they did everything right but the people won't see it that way. This will also come back onto that region as considering unsafe as people will remember where they got ill.