Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Ivanstone]

As for your other points, dude, I'm not re-litigating a thread that is locked. Dude, you kvetched I swiped at some kids, I didn't. How long do I have to play with this sea-lion?

Again and again. Because you'll eventually put your foot in your mouth again and again. Because you can't help yourself.

I just pulled one "gem" out of your post history. There's plenty more.

[Theodarzna]

I genuinely think you're a GOP supporter who posts a lot of shit at the Dems because they are the opposition. If that's not you, change the way you post.

What else is there to say about the GOP? It is a degenerate worthless party that mostly exists to unquestioning worship "The Market", which is not what I'm about. The major are of intersection is I am more conservative on cultural and social issues, but on economics I am a pretty standard boiler plate Socialist. More over, what is there novel or interesting to say? That Charlie Kirk is a weird crooked toothed troll creature with a shrunken face and shrunken soul? You can get that on any major news network other than Fox, and from an entire forum and many posters here.

The problem is that I identify the Democrats as a Neo-Liberal party. Basically the opposite of everything for me. If they at least were the real deal Socialists the GOP kvetches about I could easily vote for them even if I think Abortion is messed up and should be restricted except in a few circumstances because at least I could say the economic base was taken care of and abortion might go down but the Democrats aren't a Socialist party.

If anything I wish the Democrats could be the Leftist party; thus allowing me to have a "Whats the matter with Kansas" calculation and vote for at least Socialism. BUT alas, I am cursed with a Neo-Liberal party, and another Neo-Liberal party.

[Ivanstone]

BUT alas, I am cursed with a Neo-Liberal party, and another Neo-Liberal party.

You're not although I'm not too shocked that you're making a both sides do it argument. The Bold Independent Thinkers of this forum like to do that when the party they actually like (the GOP) does something stupid and they're embarrassed by it.

You have one party who might be somewhat capitalist but is at least willing to put a leash on it. Partially because that party contains some actual leftists who are either socialists or firm believers in a mixed economy. That same party also has members that don't believe that economic parity will fix societal problems like racism. Its almost like they have to compromise internally on issues!

The other party believes in unfettered capitalism. They're perfectly happy to use bigotry to further that agenda although some are actual bigots.

PS Abortion does go down if the Dems have more power. They do things like practice sex education which causes abortion to go down and improve economic outcomes which also helps abortion go down. Legal abortion isn't what causes abortions to happen.

[Doctor Amadeus]

What are you talking about? LOL

Man some of you all are so delusional in your hatred. Yet I'd probably struggle to find most of you saying a critical word about Joe Manchin.

It's clear you just fill in the blanks of what you know with a reason to hate Tulsi. Anything positive about her must just be a deceptive ploy. It's the kind of unhinged rambles I come to expect from Flat Earthers.

There isn't anything positive about crater face surfing barbie, and everything I said is true she campaigned against gay marriage with her family specifically, she is only sorry now because she got called out, then vowing never to end her delusional bid, Tulsi is a fucking an opportunistic tool and phony.

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What else is there to say about the GOP? It is a degenerate worthless party that mostly exists to unquestioning worship "The Market", which is not what I'm about. The major are of intersection is I am more conservative on cultural and social issues, but on economics I am a pretty standard boiler plate Socialist. More over, what is there novel or interesting to say? That Charlie Kirk is a weird crooked toothed troll creature with a shrunken face and shrunken soul? You can get that on any major news network other than Fox, and from an entire forum and many posters here.

The problem is that I identify the Democrats as a Neo-Liberal party. Basically the opposite of everything for me. If they at least were the real deal Socialists the GOP kvetches about I could easily vote for them even if I think Abortion is messed up and should be restricted except in a few circumstances because at least I could say the economic base was taken care of and abortion might go down but the Democrats aren't a Socialist party.

If anything I wish the Democrats could be the Leftist party; thus allowing me to have a "Whats the matter with Kansas" calculation and vote for at least Socialism. BUT alas, I am cursed with a Neo-Liberal party, and another Neo-Liberal party.

Well you could leave and simply admit you vote for Trump, and actually just vote for Trump again, nothing about any of your nonsense jives with reality or the Democratic party, which is exactly why the party is doing exactly what it's doing. Win or lose it doesn't matter. You will still be crying your alt-right bullshit talking points.

[Theodarzna]

Well you could leave and simply admit you vote for Trump, and actually just vote for Trump again, nothing about any of your nonsense jives with reality or the Democratic party, which is exactly why the party is doing exactly what it's doing. Win or lose it doesn't matter. You will still be crying your alt-right bullshit talking points.

Why would I leave and admit to something I didn't do?

[Doctor Amadeus]

You account for zero context because you know it wouldn't fit your narrow narrative of selective truth. You lose all credible for anything you hadto say when you have to go after someone's looks. It's clear your hatred isn't rooted anything but your own ignorance. The world isn't so black and white, and you trying to fit people into your preconceived notions only means you'll only ever believe your own insular view of how the world works.

Credibility because I am not going to prove something to you that you haven't bothered to learn yourself or have and simply choose to ignore. The world is very much black and white, and your flighty ass notions that it doesn't matter who says or does what as long as right now whatever they claim seems good.

This kind of bullshit is exactly why as I said the party is getting stronger and your flat out nonsense is being shown the door. Yes you are either with us or against us, and if you're fucking on the side lines preaching that bullshit of "Well it's just another 4 more years of Trump" by all means please do.

Right now you are either part of the solution or part of the problem either you vote Biden or You Vote Trump.

[Theodarzna]

You're not although I'm not too shocked that you're making a both sides do it argument. The Bold Independent Thinkers of this forum like to do that when the party they actually like (the GOP) does something stupid and they're embarrassed by it.

You have one party who might be somewhat capitalist but is at least willing to put a leash on it. Partially because that party contains some actual leftists who are either socialists or firm believers in a mixed economy. That same party also has members that don't believe that economic parity will fix societal problems like racism. Its almost like they have to compromise internally on issues!

The other party believes in unfettered capitalism. They're perfectly happy to use bigotry to further that agenda although some are actual bigots.

PS Abortion does go down if the Dems have more power. They do things like practice sex education which causes abortion to go down and improve economic outcomes which also helps abortion go down. Legal abortion isn't what causes abortions to happen.

First, It's not necessarily a both sides, as sure, both parties are distinct, but that distinction for me isn't meaningful as the things I care for aren't represented. Sure if someone offers me say a choice between a grilled marinated chicken and sushi I have choices that are for sure different in some way, but neither are what I wanted or asked for. I asked for baked salmon slathered in pesto. So while I acknowledge there is some difference between the two parties, the differences lack distinction. Though when it comes to warfare, cutting back on social programs that are broadly appealing, trade deals, and really even the borders/immigration question they are similar from MY vantage point but that is the point, from my vantage point neither are distinct enough to matter. I am speaking from the vantage point I stand at, not that you stand at. Maybe for you there is a tangible difference, and that is fine.

You could argue "But THEO! You have to make a choice!" and I balk, because that isn't really freedom. I'm not a child to be fed by "adults" or whatever, to really have power I should be able to decide what is a choice on offer, and if I can't have a say in making that choice, than I'm not really free in any real sense. This is were I chide Liberals (Who aren't Leftists, Liberal might as well mean Centrist) in that their view of freedom is "Ability to chose among options", where as I'd say its more important that greater numbers of people have the power to decide and create the choices on offer. Fundamentally this isn't what say either the Democratic or Republican party is about. So where it counts? Will I get a National Health Service? No. Will I get universal debt cancellations? No. Will we get VAT taxes and wealth taxes? No. Will we get nationalization of various industries? No. Will Unions be empowered? Given the embrace of Open Borders and Free Trade as well as the example of the Virginia Democratic controlled legislature? No.

I don't personally go for Neo-Liberal Progressivism, it doesn't accomplish what I'd say is the goal worth achieving. The socialists get muted, or in the case of Sanders absolutely hated. And since the New Deal the Democratic party has become more enamored with the ideology of Neo-Liberalism so the reformists and Entryists haven't achieved these goals. They have managed to sacrifice broad based social programs and class politics for wokescolding and adopting positions also promoted by large multinational corporations HR departments.

This primary is indeed exhibit Z+1000 of how one cannot really achieve the goals of Socialism through the Democratic Party, at least not peacefully or through "the process". The Party had the choice of rather moderate low grade DemSoc FDR'ism. Mild stuff, what I'd even consider moderation on the economics. And the donors, the establishment, the Professional Managerial Class came together to utterly crush it and now debates with the GOP about how to means test low interest loans for the proles during a pandemic. I again state, the problem is that from my vantage point, I'm not ever going to see the policies I want and thus will critique that, because people claiming say the Bill Clinton era was some Left-Wing government is insane, Nixon governed more to the Left than Clinton. If anything you can distill almost my entire point being "This isn't actually Socialism so why does anyone pretend this is radical or revolutionary?"

[Doctor Amadeus]

Why would I leave and admit to something I didn't do?

For the same reason you admit to a lot of things you claim you are being accused of but aren't true, except when they are lulz or no

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No one is ever owed a vote, and it was no one fault for the 2016 loss but Hillary. If Biden or Bernie were to lose to Trump that'd be their fault too.

I am not with DOMA, Iraq War Vote, NAFTA, Segregated Busing and the rank nepotism of 'not illegal' corruption. That isn't just rhetoric, it's policy Biden fully supported, and the history of his family. If Biden wants to get my vote, he's going to have prove he won't cut social security in some grand bargain scheme as they did not too long ago.

Honestly your nonsense means nothing, if you can't get what you want, then fuck everyone else, isn't exactly being a grown up, sometimes you make the best decision with the choices available, that is what adults do.

Biden doesn't have to prove shit, the DNC doesn't have to prove shit, and I am actually pretty glad we are seeing the final days of that bullshit, win or lose enough is enough of that bullshit, catering to fucking children who think life being pandered to is enough, especially when none of them ever have to be consistent or credible.

As I said Tulsi is a fucking stooge, she is far worse than any Democrat running and hell she is worst than Trump in may ways.

The point is drawing a fine line between the stupid and corrupt, between those that are adults and those that live in a world of alternative facts. Biden might be many things, but the man is consistent and a better option than Trump period, so the only question before you provided Bernie doesn't make a come back is if you will support stupid or you will support someone you simply don't like.


By the way he isn't going to cut Social Security, he simply suggested it was up for negotiation because that is how it works, However Trump for sure is if he gets the chance, or flat out end it like some of the GOP have wanted.

So if taking the issue like Social Security for example is something you care about and you are being truthful than Trump isn't even an option, which means not voting for the Democratic Nominee isn't either.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If I were to choose not to vote, than I'd be with Majority of Americans who are fine with the current social economic system being broken.

You honestly think Trump is the problem???

How impossible blind do you have to be to see Trump is a result of our Corrupt System? Most of Congress and the Senate is bought and paid for, and choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

No people like you are the problem Trump is the symptom and not voting and pretending you aren't responsible is a big part of the problem. None of the issues you suggest you care about are important when you do nothing, and refuse to be an adult and do what you can and push forward.

And evil isn't some fucking fictional TV movie plot, evil is not acting and doing what you can, instead of sitting on your hands to do SOMETHING to make the world and more importantly your own back yard better, even if it's just a little bit.

[Ivanstone]

Fundamentally this isn't what say either the Democratic or Republican party is about. So where it counts?
Will I get a National Health Service? No.
Will I get universal debt cancellations? No.
Will we get VAT taxes and wealth taxes? No.
Will we get nationalization of various industries? No.
Will Unions be empowered? Given the embrace of Open Borders and Free Trade as well as the example of the Virginia Democratic controlled legislature? No.

More both sides bullshit.
One sides moving in that direction. The other isn't.
One sides moving in that direction. The other has Betsy DeVos.
Both already exist. The former punishes the poor mostly. A certain poster was already admitted to shirking the latter.
Not really necessary for most industries but it would be nice if certain ones get clawed back ie prisons.
Yes for one side. No for the other. Globalization can be reined in somewhat with regulations. Which one side will do, the other won't.

In the absence of a genuine left wing, you pick the centrist party over the right wing party. Unless of course you actually like things the right wing party does like racism, homophobia and women bleeding to death in a hotel room from a botched abortion.

[Theodarzna]

More both sides bullshit.
One sides moving in that direction. The other isn't.
One sides moving in that direction. The other has Betsy DeVos.
Both already exist. The former punishes the poor mostly. A certain poster was already admitted to shirking the latter.
Not really necessary for most industries but it would be nice if certain ones get clawed back ie prisons.
Yes for one side. No for the other. Globalization can be reined in somewhat with regulations. Which one side will do, the other won't.

In the absence of a genuine left wing, you pick the centrist party over the right wing party. Unless of course you actually like things the right wing party does like racism, homophobia and women bleeding to death in a hotel room from a botched abortion.

Neither side is moving in that direction, and in terms of "moving in that direction" hell, will they move in my lifetime? In my daughters? As I asked of -Edge, will National Health Services exist before my daughter is 18? Will I live to see this?

Given I see no proof that either side intends to ever do any of this in any time frame other than "Someday" I'll say NONE of this is going to happen. Heck the Dems have just vowed to nominate and with the acclaim of many of its core voters a mind melted Free Trade, previous segregationist, Anti-Universal Health Care (He'd veto it), rejects the entire Sanders platform guy as their champion. Face it, this party is a fraud on those issues.

[Ivanstone]

Neither side is moving in that direction, and in terms of "moving in that direction" hell, will they move in my lifetime? In my daughters? As I asked of -Edge, will National Health Services exist before my daughter is 18? Will I live to see this?

Given I see no proof that either side intends to ever do any of this in any time frame other than "Someday" I'll say NONE of this is going to happen. Heck the Dems have just vowed to nominate and with the acclaim of many of its core voters a mind melted Free Trade, previous segregationist, Anti-Universal Health Care (He'd veto it), rejects the entire Sanders platform guy as their champion. Face it, this party is a fraud on those issues.

You don't see it that way because you choose not to see it that way. However, one side keeps on gaining members that want it. Even the corporatists want it because the insurance they provide for their employees is getting more and more expensive.

Biden's only in because they feel he's more likely to defeat Trump which is vastly more important. Biden's not perfect but he wouldn't put a wingnut like Gorsuch or a sycophant like Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court either. You of course don't see that because you choose not to.

[Theodarzna]

You don't see it that way because you choose not to see it that way. However, one side keeps on gaining members that want it. Even the corporatists want it because the insurance they provide for their employees is getting more and more expensive.

Biden's only in because they feel he's more likely to defeat Trump which is vastly more important. Biden's not perfect but he wouldn't put a wingnut like Gorsuch or a sycophant like Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court either. You of course don't see that because you choose not to.

Dude, first, are we really going to litigate this entire schtick over and over and over? Like we are now so far removed from your claim that I "swiped at kids" that this is becoming a really tedious sea-lion to play with.

I've stated my case about Biden, and my position on the whole "We just have to get rid of Trump" belief before, I see that as utterly fruitless because its predicated on a sincere belief that Trump alone is the core of all problems, when removing him is unlikely to achieve anything if the kind of structural and material changes needed are not met immediately. Biden would essential ensure a much worse Trump, or a much worse Democratic party doing things that are objectively awful to avoid ever losing power. Thus negating the whole point.

But again, how much of this must I re-litigate ad-infinitum? I appreciate Doctor Amadeus being blunt and just demanding I say I voted for Trump and I'm really some secret psyop to cause otherwise loyal and faithful Democrats to lose faith; despite me essentially saying what such relatively moderate figures as Krystal Ball, and Kyle Kulinski and Jimmy Dore or Micheal Brooks all say as well. Or hell, such Centrists as Thomas Frank who is someone with a lot more sentimentality for the DNC and he wrote a whole book about the Democratic Parties abandonment of rather non-revolutionary FDR DemSoc'ism called Listen Liberal. Honestly I should say that I am a secret psyop since it would add to my mystique here on MMO-OC, but then caring about that would be very cringe.

Hell, I'll let Thomas Frank speak directly if you have the time:

[gobio]

The system discourages voting. It has always limited those who can vote and you still see it today. People scoff at the idea of a Felon voting. Well maybe if a felon could vote more people would vote as well. I never said i wasn't voting, bit I don't subscribe to the childish team red vs team blue. I get enough of that with video games.

I'll never vote for Trump, but Biden doesn't get my vote by virtue of being less awful. He has to earn it and if he doesn't that's his fault.

What kind of election would felon be involved in? Federal? State? Local? Town?
What is considered home state for the felon? The town that hosted the prison?

Democracy in a local Prison town with "all residents" voting, what can go wrong! Holy shit, no!

[Masark]

What is considered home state for the felon?

Up here, they vote as if they lived at their "place of ordinary residence". Here's the precise definition:

For electoral purposes, the incarcerated elector's place of ordinary residence is not the institution in which he or she is serving a sentence. It is the first of the following places for which the elector knows the civic and mailing addresses:

1. his or her residence before being incarcerated; or
2. the residence of the spouse, the common-law partner, a relative or dependant of the elector, a relative of his or her spouse or common-law partner or a person with whom the elector would live if not incarcerated; or
3. the place of his or her arrest; or
4. the last court where the elector was convicted and sentenced.

https://www.elections.ca/content.asp...ec90545&lang=e

[Levelfive]

Does that really even matter? If that person already perfectly wrote down her thoughts on a topic, then why not copy it? This is an obscure subforum on the internet. It’s not like she’s a paid professional writing an op-ed

That's actually what makes it so pathetic. And we have a super handy system already in place in the event someone perfectly captures your thoughts on a given subject--quotation marks and a citation of the name of the original author, instead of stealing someone else's work and pretending it's your own because you're just that insecure, dishonest, and phony.

[Bodakane]

I'll never vote for Trump, but Biden doesn't get my vote by virtue of being less awful. He has to earn it and if he doesn't that's his fault.

I hope people read this it and understand it.

I am extremely anti-Trump and would vote for a crackhead's used condom over the orange shitgibbon, but there is nothing unreasonable about the above stance at all. It is even commendable to hold compromising your ideals to the same degree of disdain as supporting Trump.

Props.

[Machismo]

Does that really even matter? If that person already perfectly wrote down her thoughts on a topic, then why not copy it? This is an obscure subforum on the internet. It’s not like she’s a paid professional writing an op-ed

It simply proves she's a liar, and a disingenuous poster. So yes, it does matter. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

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If a professor makes a giant point on an anonymous non-school location about being some Lefty, and then when read Karl Marx verbatim but rejects it because of who said it; than I'd know that professor was a fake.

Second, is this forum a school? Do you actually take this place so seriously as to look at the *checks notes* World of Warcraft off topic message board as this serious clearing house if dissertations? Like Skroe's posts are going to be compiled for posterity and the lengthy discussions you all had in "The Trump Shitshow" thread form some serious important academic dialog of the *looks at more notes* Brilliant Minds of the World of Warcraft offtopic forum?

The unfounded narcissism of some of you is amazing. There is nothing say as profoundly narcissistic and delusional as believing the body of posts on MMO-OC is worth anything, like say unironically thinking people aught to be well aware of some grand "Doctrine" or theme and position of ones posts by studiously reading ones entire catalog of posts here. Then again, given the lore and legend of Theo on this forum, maybe you lot really do keep studious track of every post and treat this place as your classroom and main forum of engagement.

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The hell are you talking about?

Except, you are a proven fake...

Oh, the irony.

[Ivanstone]

But again, how much of this must I re-litigate ad-infinitum?

Because you ignore things like polling and history. Ten years ago I wouldn't have thought that M4A would ever be a thing within the US even though its the right thing to do. Now? The majority of Americans want it because the for profit system within the US isn't working. Biden is a minor setback to that, Trump would kill it dead. Opinions are shifting but you don't care about that. You only care about your precious beliefs and smears.

Pick just about any major societal change. It often takes time because the US can be aggressively regressive but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

[Lenonis]

there’s no problem with the presumptive nominee clearly displaying dementia every 5 seconds.

Not when the other person to vote for displays dementia every 3 seconds.

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there is nothing unreasonable about the above stance at all. It is even commendable to hold compromising your ideals to the same degree of disdain as supporting Trump.

There is everything in the universe unreasonable about not being willing to vote for the candidate that gives you 30% of what you want vs the candidate that give you -300% of what you want. It's irrational, spiteful, myopic, and comes from a place of ignorance as to how your choices impact you.

That being said there is absolutely nothing wrong with being reluctant to do so. Or feeling gross about it. Or being very sad your more ideologically aligned candidate didn't make it. That's normal and healthy.

But opting out because you didn't get everything you wanted? That doesn't ever deserve props.