Mythic+ without timer

[Ragnarohk]

This is literally already how it works. You get the gear either way. What are you bitching about?

Keys don't upgrade

- - - Updated - - -

You have this, its called m0 which is none timed mythic dungeons.

Keys don't upgrade

[Zephire]

Death count. Key advances only with 0 deaths.

People would still leave after the first pull then, if someone died.

Optional timer (for leaderboards), let people invite replacements, have keys go +2/+3 based on deaths and maybe something reasonable for loot. Maybe just a normal dungeon run but with scaling difficulty, aka, loot chance from every boss? Like, why not?

I have no problem with a timer but I can understand that others want at least an option to not use it.

You have this, its called m0 which is none timed mythic dungeons.

Then you miss the part where you can challenge yourself with higher difficulty.

[Ragnarohk]

Forgive my insolence, this sounds like 'Its too hard, but we want our participation trophies.'

It's so that they can be enjoyed in some other way.

I loved Mechagon when it got introduced. It took us like 4 ours to clear. But every time we killed a boss it felt rewarding.

This would create a different (and optional) approach to how you tackle mythic+

[Revamp Man]

You can replace people in TW though, and TW doesn't require keys. Also the gear from TW is garbage (compared to M+ level).

You want big gear then do big content

[Evilmoo]

intermittent objectives can be used to make M+ less timer reliant.
For example You kill boss A, boss A drops a single use item that gives "fragile" debuff to the player who clicks it, the debuff will instakill a player if he or she takes more than 10% of HP in one hit from non-environmental effects (not affixes). Debuff is removed upon death, the objective is to make sure this player survives until the next boss so he or she can use this debuff (via action button) to transfer debuff to boss and this will significantly decrease the difficulty of boss B.
There are many options how can M+ become less gogogogofest and more a skillfest.

[Tradu]

Then you miss the part where you can challenge yourself with higher difficulty.

The timer is a big part of the difficulty. Without the timer you'd just wait for CDs every pull and never need to pull multiple packs together.

[erifwodahs]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

you still get the rewards at the end of the dungeon. There is no time out for rewards. You get increased rewards for making it in time. That's how world works, you get to have silver medals for losing because golden ones are for winners

[Tradu]

intermittent objectives can be used to make M+ less timer reliant.
For example You kill boss A, boss A drops a single use item that gives "fragile" debuff to the player who clicks it, the debuff will instakill a player if he or she takes more than 10% of HP in one hit from non-environmental effects (not affixes). Debuff is removed upon death, the objective is to make sure this player survives until the next boss so he or she can use this debuff (via action button) to transfer debuff to boss and this will significantly decrease the difficulty of boss B.
There are many options how can M+ become less gogogogofest and more a skillfest.

So that player just stays back and the other 4 kill everything towards the next boss. Or you use some class to cheese it.

[Ragnarohk]

you still get the rewards at the end of the dungeon. There is no time out for rewards. You get increased rewards for making it in time. That's how world works, you get to have silver medals for losing because golden ones are for winners

Keys don't upgrade

[Tradu]

Keys don't upgrade

And they shouldn't. There needs to be something gating you from upgrading if you can't successfully clear a dungeon. Being able to push higher forever by just waiting for CDs for every pull/boss is poor design, not skillful and boring.

[Evilmoo]

So that player just stays back and the other 4 kill everything towards the next boss. Or you use some class to cheese it.

Good luck doing that on high mythic. Cheesing it is an actual strategy and use of knowledge so its more or less ok.
Its not to be necessarily the scenario i described, it can be many and different.
it can instakill the person if he/she is not in within 20(30)(40) yards of a tank for example.
There can be many creative solutions.

[Ragnarohk]

And they shouldn't. There needs to be something gating you from upgrading if you can't successfully clear a dungeon. Being able to push higher forever by just waiting for CDs for every pull/boss is poor design, not skillful and boring.

What defines successfully clearing a dungeon?

Both the groups that took 30 mins and 5 hours, but killed all the bosses, successfully cleared the dungeon.

[erifwodahs]

Keys don't upgrade

So? It's like wanting to qualify for Olympics in 100m sprint but saying that you will jog it. Non timed scaling mode might be fun and might produce some interesting content from very high skilled min maxers, but it would turn into a snooze fest to watch it after a while as every pack would need BL and ppl going out to respec every pull. I don't see too much trouble for it being there, but rewards should not be the same or at least +5 key levels for same level of rewards, 465 from 19s and 475 from 20s in the weekly chest. Which, if not timed, is really easy to complete on non tyra weeks. On the other hand, timed or not, on tyra weeks those most of non timed pushers would crumble. I have seen people doing 2hrs shrines because of the 2nd boss.

[Tradu]

Good luck doing that on high mythic. Cheesing it is an actual strategy and use of knowledge so its more or less ok.
Its not to be necessarily the scenario i described, it can be many and different.
it can instakill the person if he/she is not in within 20(30)(40) yards of a tank for example.
There can be many creative solutions.

Obnoxious solutions, yeah. If they're not within those X yards of the tank, you get a new loss condition of "tank died". It also means mechanics that knock the tank unavoidably(think Freehold) are a loss condition.
You said your objectives would make M+ "less timer reliant", but I guess that's not it? You're just describing Junkyard, which is basically already doing exactly what you're describing and is A: the easiest dungeon by far if nobody dies during the run and B: super obnoxious if you ever wipe.

- - - Updated - - -

What defines successfully clearing a dungeon?

Both the groups that took 30 mins and 5 hours, but killed all the bosses, successfully cleared the dungeon.

If a 30 minute dungeon takes you 5 hours, you failed. It's really that simple. The timer exists to prevent people from wasting their time on content that's clearly too hard for them. If anything the punishment for not timing currently is too minor.

[callipygoustp]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

Not seeing how this would make the community less toxic.

[qactuar]

I agree with not having timers. No timers means that players are probably able to go higher 'successfully' than is currently done with a timer present, but eventually you're still going to get to a point where even waiting for CDs every pull isn't going to be enough for you because of the enemy scaling. It might be a different kind of wall, but it's still a wall and I think no timer allows for a lot more flexibility in group composition compared to not having one. Some specs struggle with being expected to rush.

That being said, you can clear 15s in time no matter what the group composition looks like and since that's where the loot stops upgrading, I don't know if anything really needs to be changed.

[Sinx]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

PUG M+ is toxic
LFR is toxic
PUG raids are toxic
PUG PVP is toxic

You see the common denominator here ? Hint: It's not m+

Mythic+ is literally the only new major gameplay addition during the 15 years after launch that has been really successful (as opposed to things like scenarios and islands, which turned out to be failures. Even the predecessor, challenge mode, had a very limited audience). So why on earth would they want to ruin it ? If you have time for 5 hour dungeon crawls, you have time to get to know some people you can play with regulary, and avoid having to do pugs entirely. This is an MMO afterall. And if you absolutely insist on doing pugs, a good tip is also to install the raider.io addon and group with people that are at your own level. In my experience, people generally leave because A) They have significantly higher m+ rating and think the group sucks or B) The group is held back by someone not pulling their weight.

As for the timers themselves, it's really not as extreme as some try to make it seem, unless you go for pushing 20+ keys. You can easily clear a +15 without doing anything extraordinary on the pulls. It does require a certain level of gear of course, but so does most of the content. Removing the timers would simply make the runs take a ridiculous amount of time, cause you'd reach levels where you'd need heroism for every single pull. Few people have the time to dedicate 3, 4, 5 hours in an evening to do a 5-man dungeon. And no it has nothing to do with being elitist. I'm a retired high end raider that does 3 hours of heroic raiding a week, and 2-6 mythic+ runs with some RL buddies.

[potis]

Not seeing how this would make the community less toxic.

In their magical world its the timer thats the problem.

Not the fact they are playing their character at 1% of its potential.

So the game has to change because Little Billy cant Interrupt while pressing his offensive ability.

[Ghostile]

Or.. or.. hear me out.. or Make your own groups that state you will run without caring about the timer

[crusadernero]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

Yes I would enjoy it. In fact, I would start doing them again. I did it when it was first introduced but quickly stopped doing them alot and ended up with doing just a few m+ a week and it was usally never a really high key.

These days I dont bother at all. Only if a friend/guildmate ask.

For me, personally, it ruined dungeons in wow. But thats just me, it might be better overall for the game for all I know.

and I know I can just do lower m+ keys, m0 or just normal/hc dungeons. Because thats what I do if I bother with dungeons.

It would be nice with hard dungeons, hard difficulties that didnt require the group to "gogoogogogogo".