Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Mehrunes]

Tell me, are you even remotely aware of sarcasm and humor?

I am. But I am also aware of your whole litany of nonsensical accusations against Horde posters that you make in thread after thread (hell, you levied some accusations against Horde fanbase in this very thread where your subsequent reply when someone questioned you on that wasn't "was a joke lol"). Many of which weirdly enough corresponded with that "humor" of yours I replied to. So either you were engaging in humor at your own expense or you are hiding behind "humor" as if it was a shield to protect you and your posts from criticism. Both of which are more of a you problem.

Not everything here is required or meant to be an argument. You do understand this forum is not meant to be a formal debate where you "win", right? You do understand further that your constant hostility isn't winning you any converts?

Pointing out your bunch of fallacies (I'm sorry, your humor) does not constitute hostility. And it not being a formal debate does not magically make fallacies any less invalid as arguments. And I don't exactly desire you as my "convert". Sorry.

Goodness me, why ever would you feel targeted by that term? Your outrage is funny.

Goodness me, absolutely squat in that post said I felt targeted by anything. Your attempts at flinging shit to discredit other posters are what is funny here. Also, funny how Minikin not only did not take your comment as a joke but you also didn't correct them (unlike me). How tricksy of you, leading them on like that.

[Varodoc]

that's weird, I always thought it's different given that the old one was centralized on Lordaeron and in WC3 it's active participants was just Lordaeron, some High Elf volunteers, Ironforge and Stormpike, and Dalaran - with Kul Tiras only joining in too late to cause more trouble than they're worth. And at least 30-50% of its members are Horde now; compared to what we have now. But I guess same Alliance it is then

But the point is - the Alliance still mostly gets only slight punishments with little accountability

It's the same Alliance only because it's the spiritual successor. It's not the same organization, and Metzen never alluded to anything of the sort.

[Syegfryed]

that's weird, I always thought it's different given that the old one was centralized on Lordaeron and in WC3 it's active participants was just Lordaeron, some High Elf volunteers, Ironforge and Stormpike, and Dalaran - with Kul Tiras only joining in too late to cause more trouble than they're worth. And at least 30-50% of its members are Horde now; compared to what we have now. But I guess same Alliance it is then

But the point is - the Alliance still mostly gets only slight punishments with little accountability

what changed was the central point of power, it changed from lordaeron to Stormwind. the others didn't appear in wc3 because it was a shortgame with a short spawn of time and no one followed Medivh only Jaina and the survivors

they didn't appear in the frozen throne because also short spawn of time, the distance was big, and stormwind didn't seems to care much about lordaeron either. Kul'tiras only arrived after and they were more busy hunting the orcs

[Feanoro]

I am. But I am also aware of your whole litany of nonsensical accusations against Horde posters that you make in thread after thread (hell, you levied some accusations against Horde fanbase in this very thread where your subsequent reply when someone questioned you on that wasn't "was a joke lol"). Many of which weirdly enough corresponded with that "humor" of yours I replied to.

You refusing to acknowledge those arguments are made by Horde posters (obviously I'm sarcastically exaggerating them, or I had thought obviously) doesn't make them "nonsensical accusations". Also, since your replies (and post history) in no way suggest you understand sarcasm, humor, or ANYTHING but flat literalness (because defending imaginary rotting corpses and green men is SERIOUS BUSINESS, I guess?), I suppose I should have known better than to ask you a rhetorical question.

So either you were engaging in humor at your own expense or you are hiding behind "humor" as if it was a shield to protect you and your posts from criticism. Both of which are more of a you problem.

Or I was exaggerating some of the claims Horde posters make in their desperate attempts to either justify the Horde's atrocity du jour or paint the Alliance as equally bad. Sorry that was lost on you.

Pointing out your bunch of fallacies (I'm sorry, your humor) does not constitute hostility.

True. However, comments like "nonsensical accusations" and "flinging shit" certainly don't seem like you're interested in making friends here, since you take that tone with everyone.

And it not being a formal debate does not magically make fallacies any less invalid as arguments.

So essentially, to you, everything is a formal debate and every statement is to be evaluated as an argument, regardless of me telling you my intent was not to make arguments. Got it. You may be aware of humor as a concept, but you're clearly incapable of understanding or engaging in it.

And I don't exactly desire you as my "convert". Sorry.

Right, I forget, you're here to win arguments against anyone and everyone.

Goodness me, absolutely squat in that post said I felt targeted by anything.

And yet you felt compelled to respond.

Your attempts at flinging shit to discredit other posters are what is funny here. Also, funny how Minikin not only did not take your comment as a joke but you also didn't correct them (unlike me). How tricksy of you, leading them on like that.

It's almost like he seems capable of understanding context, like a normal human being!

[Aucald]

Sargeras was very dangerous as he already killed the Pantheon once. I think he knows what is to come. His only mistake is the way of saving the universe. I am sure Azeroth will be able to save herself without Sargeras' help.

Even if you wanted to accede to that argument, Sargeras' "only mistake" in this context is indescribably huge - since it entails the annihilation of all life in the current universe. Sargeras wasn't really interested in saving anything, as his rationale includes the ominous admission that it's only a possibility that life could flower in a new universe devoid of Titan World-Souls and previously living civilizations.

--- snip ---

--- snip ---

This personal aside has nothing to do with the subject of the thread - drop it, or take to PM's to avoid derailing the thread.

[Nerovar]

that is with, rise of the horde, chronicles, and others. The legion only came for the draenei 25.000 years after they set on draenor.

As other posters have already pointed out, this is false.

i know that, and im saying without external force and being fooled they would do nothing with the draenei.

Without the demon's blood or the highly developed warmachines Garrosh brought they most likely wouldn't have been able to. But to claim that their aggression towards the Draenei came out of nowhere after they were fooled by Garrosh/the Legion and is no way rooted in some sort of cultural dispostion towards warmongering is pretty unbelievable.

humans killed many other races and get their lands, their dominated most of the easter kingdoms, the only difference is scale of bloodshed, and intent, humans did without external forces, without being fooled, without being corrupted and enslaved to someone else will, they did to get lands, resources and because they didn't like other races,

I mean, there aren't exactly that many races in the Eastern Kingdoms that aren't hostile and highly aggressive like Gnolls. They didn't attempt to conquer the intelligent, peaceful races like Dwarves or Elves for example.

thats not true, they invaded trolls lands and push then away, its not like they were in no one land, they could have went anywhere who was not occupied, by the trolls, they slaughtered trolls, gnolls and others alike, they expanded and conquered.

Again, Humans didn't choose to settle in the Eastern Kingdoms. They were brought there as malformed Vrykul who would have been killed otherwise. The lore documents we have on the Troll Wars state that the Humans only aided the High Elves because Quel Thalas was about to be destroyed by the trolls and they were convinced the Trolls would attack the Human nation after they were done with the Elves. And even then, they didn't exterminate the Trolls or anything. They simply weakened their very aggressive empire.

but like i said, why they would do that if they already paid for it? living in inhumans conditions in the concentration camps then living in durotar by someone else crime isn't enough? and they did change their ways yes, but the alliance hunt then down even in the other continent, and there was elves who want to kill then

The Lordamere internment camps were an injustice in itself but that doesn't mean the Horde isn't still responsible for their actions and they have done very little to change or atone for it. Also tt wasn't exactly the Alliance who hunted them down but a small faction in the Alliance under Daelin Proudmoore. And itt was also a member of the Alliance (Jaina Proudmoore) who stopped him, saved the Orcs and sacrificed her own father in the process.

its always the alliance who keep starting the "war", the only time horde did the advance first was in teldrassil, because the alliance attacked sylvanas before.

I don't know where you get this from. The Horde invaded Azeroth unprovoked, they attacked Gilneas unprovoked, they ravaged Pandaria unprovoked, Ashenvale in Cata was also started by the Horde...

[Mehrunes]

that's weird, I always thought it's different given that the old one was centralized on Lordaeron and in WC3 it's active participants was just Lordaeron, some High Elf volunteers, Ironforge and Stormpike, and Dalaran - with Kul Tiras only joining in too late to cause more trouble than they're worth. And at least 30-50% of its members are Horde now; compared to what we have now. But I guess same Alliance it is then

But the point is - the Alliance still mostly gets only slight punishments with little accountability

Yeah, and what the Alliance was centralized around was pretty much the only change caused by external factors of Lordaeron going out in flames. Also, all Alliance members except maybe Stormwind (not 100% sure on that) sent help to Lordaeron. Even Gnomes sent help and they were going through their own issues at the time.

It's the same Alliance only because it's the spiritual successor. It's not the same organization, and Metzen never alluded to anything of the sort.

Except you made the spiritual successor nonsense up. He flat out said it's the same Alliance. That's the full content of what he said. There was nothing about spirituality in there.

[Ardenaso]

I don't know where you get this from. The Horde invaded Azeroth unprovoked, they attacked Gilneas unprovoked, they ravaged Pandaria unprovoked, Ashenvale in Cata was also started by the Horde...

Brennadam...

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Yeah, and what the Alliance was centralized around was pretty much the only change caused by external factors of Lordaeron going out in flames. Also, all Alliance members except maybe Stormwind (not 100% sure on that) sent help to Lordaeron. Even Gnomes sent help and they were going through their own issues at the time.

So far the only Stormwindian I've seen was Gavinrad the Dire. Not sure about the gnomes though, people are still debating with WC3 purists if the Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks were dwarves/gnomes

[Mehrunes]

Without the demon's blood or the highly developed warmachines Garrosh brought they most likely wouldn't have been able to. But to claim that their aggression towards the Draenei came out of nowhere after they were fooled by Garrosh/the Legion and is no way rooted in some sort of cultural dispostion towards warmongering is pretty unbelievable.

Most of Orcs' war against the Draenei precluded them drinking the blood. They drank the blood only prior to their attack on Shattrath, which was the last holdout of the Draenei.

Again, Humans didn't choose to settle in the Eastern Kingdoms. They were brought there as malformed Vrykul who would have been killed otherwise. The lore documents we have on the Troll Wars state that the Humans only aided the High Elves because Quel Thalas was about to be destroyed by the trolls and they were convinced the Trolls would attack the Human nation after they were done with the Elves. And even then, they didn't exterminate the Trolls or anything. They simply weakened their very aggressive empire.

Just because they didn't outright exterminate them doesn't mean it was some kind of a picnic. This is what the humans unleashed on the Trolls when High Elves taught them magic: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll_Wars..._Wars_magi.jpg

The Lordamere internment camps were an injustice in itself but that doesn't mean the Horde isn't still responsible for their actions and they have done very little to change or atone for it. Also tt wasn't exactly the Alliance who hunted them down but a small faction in the Alliance under Daelin Proudmoore. And itt was also a member of the Alliance (Jaina Proudmoore) who stopped him, saved the Orcs and sacrificed her own father in the process.

Jaina didn't stop him. She merely stood aside and let Horde duke it out with him. And Thrall did reform the Horde in many ways. He brought back focus on shamanism and crashed down on remnants of the Shadow Council, he engaged in diplomacy with the Alliance (to the point of outright appeasement by the end of his reign) and so on. He also forced atonement upon Orcs by deliberately settling them in a shithole. Though the fact that he forced it upon them is the very reason why many Orcs resented him and rallied around Garrosh.

I don't know where you get this from. The Horde invaded Azeroth unprovoked, they attacked Gilneas unprovoked, they ravaged Pandaria unprovoked, Ashenvale in Cata was also started by the Horde...

The "its always the alliance who keep starting the "war"" of what @Syegfryed said put a quite clear Alliance vs Horde confine on that. Neither the "ravaging" of Pandaria nor the attack on Gilneas were cases of Horde starting war with the Alliance (in Pandaria the Alliance arrived at the same time as the humans and expanded just like them).

And while you're right about the First War (though at the time neither side was really aware of each other so arguably the concept of provocations doesn't fully apply here), the invasion of Ashenvale was simply one front of the WotLK-MoP faction war that was started by the Alliance. And while the factions had a ceasefire between WotLK and Cata, Garrosh wasn't even the one to break it first as Northwatch's incursion into Barrens that culminated in humans capturing the Horde outpost of Honor's Stand predates Garrosh's attack on Ashenvale.

[matrix123mko]

Even if you wanted to accede to that argument, Sargeras' "only mistake" in this context is indescribably huge - since it entails the annihilation of all life in the current universe. Sargeras wasn't really interested in saving anything, as his rationale includes the ominous admission that it's only a possibility that life could flower in a new universe devoid of Titan World-Souls and previously living civilizations.

It is one mistake that he thinks that this world is doomed. However, I agree it is huge mistake.

[Combatbutler]

So far the only Stormwindian I've seen was Gavinrad the Dire. Not sure about the gnomes though, people are still debating with WC3 purists if the Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks were dwarves/gnomes

Chronicle straighten it out a bit, the gnomes sent help while being overrun by troggs, because they considered the scourge a bigger threat the high elves of Quel'thalas sent some official help as well, it wasn't just volunteers, the specific kingdoms that did not lift a finger to help were stormwind, because it was still weak according to Varian in Wolfheart and Gilneas, which flat out told them they don't care when Lordaeron sent desperate pleas for help.

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Just because they didn't outright exterminate them doesn't mean it was some kind of a picnic. This is what the humans unleashed on the Trolls when High Elves taught them magic: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll_Wars..._Wars_magi.jpg
.

That wasn't just the humans though

[Minikin]

its what im trying to say all the time, but people keep insisting is all orc fault and they are the only to blame, when both races did stupid things and wrong decisions to

the only thing i disagree is that the legion would went to draenor without the draeneis there, only god would know how many millennia the Legion would reach draenor, why they would waste time there when serious matters were more important, like searching world souls and since there is no race advanced or powerful enough like the eradar itself, the aldrachi or the netherzin to call their attention, it don't make sense

Err no. thats not what you are trying to say aLl tHe TimE. All you have been repeating is that the draenei are to blame for not telling the orcs about the big bad demons. And what @Aucald is saying is that both are the victims.

You start by saying "oh both are wrong they both did wrong", then flip to "i disagree the draenei are to blame cuz they went to draenor!"

pick one. and stick with it.

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im lost in mental gymnastic because im flipping the alliance hypocrite statements like blaming the entire orcish race as objective evil race while they withewash other races just because the scale wasn't the same? rofl

This whole thread stat derailing because alliance players can't stay on topic and start their mental gymnastics blaming the orcs and the horde

yes the bad bad alliance players. only they have derailed threads ever, so evil. you havent done that ever right? Lets take a glancing trip on the mental gymnastics.

If they ever knew it was demon blood, Grom would never drink that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77baYweLQk [25:02]
so;
1. Grom knew
2. another orc tried to convince him
3. still drank again and got others to drink.

I guess since now there were no draenei within the biosphere youll blame the stones and the grass surrounding the well for not pre warning Grom?

Arthas knew all along the sword was cursed, and he would do anything to get revenge, even sacrificing muradin and anyone in his path to archive that

thats completely different

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YmzgY9rbvk 3:26
so;
1. Arthas knew
2. another hero tried to convince him
3. still grabbed sword and went on a killing spree


but nooooooo thats

thats completely different

[FelPlague]

You can say that the capital was blighted by Sylvanas(which was a part of the defence anyway)

Yeah no, thats not how it works, you cant say to the police "well the robers broke in, so to defend my property i burnt the house to the ground with them inside!"

that is not defence, that is martyrdom, or called a demolition trap

[Syegfryed]

As other posters have already pointed out, this is false.

just the spawn of time was wrong, they still were in peace with the draenei.

Without the demon's blood or the highly developed warmachines Garrosh brought they most likely wouldn't have been able to.

they didn't even have the intent or the desire to, neither they would do if they wanted. You are forgetting they attack the draenei BEFORE the blood, and they only used for the final conflict

But to claim that their aggression towards the Draenei came out of nowhere after they were fooled by Garrosh/the Legion and is no way rooted in some sort of cultural dispostion towards warmongering is pretty unbelievable.

its literally what happened, they had nothing against then, they did NOTHING to then in all the time the draenei were in draenor, they even befriend and maintained some sort of little contact with then, again, there was not cultural disposition to attack others at random since they didn't even touch the draenei and didn't even fight against each other(unlike the humans) and mostly fought to defend themselves in draenor

I mean, there aren't exactly that many races in the Eastern Kingdoms that aren't hostile and highly aggressive like Gnolls. They didn't attempt to conquer the intelligent, peaceful races like Dwarves or Elves for example.

and the orcs were not hostile to races like taurens, trolls and goblins, this point is invalid.

those "hostile and highly aggressive races" like the trolls had no problem befriend orcs, maybe because orcs didn't invade their lands and push then away like the humans and elves did?

Again, Humans didn't choose to settle in the Eastern Kingdoms.

they did chose to spread and conquer the whole continent, conquering other races there, you can't deny that

They were brought there as malformed Vrykul who would have been killed otherwise.

this give then free pass to get other races lands?

The lore documents we have on the Troll Wars state that the Humans only aided the High Elves because Quel Thalas was about to be destroyed by the trolls and they were convinced the Trolls would attack the Human nation after they were done with the Elves. And even then, they didn't exterminate the Trolls or anything. They simply weakened their very aggressive empire.

They were already facing the trolls before that, thats the reason the Arathor empire came to exist, to unite the human tribes against the trolls

The Lordamere internment camps were an injustice in itself but that doesn't mean the Horde isn't still responsible for their actions and they have done very little to change or atone for it

again, why the sons should be responsible for their fathers crimes, when their fathers already have paid with their free will and their very souls?

Also tt wasn't exactly the Alliance who hunted them down but a small faction in the Alliance under Daelin Proudmoore. And itt was also a member of the Alliance (Jaina Proudmoore) who stopped him, saved the Orcs and sacrificed her own father in the process.

a small faction in the alliance still is the alliance, after daelin why do you think the war was still going on in vanilla? because the alliance went after the horde, allied with the night elves to seize it and Varian himself declared open war against the horde later

If jaina fought with her father, she and her people would die as well.

I don't know where you get this from. The Horde invaded Azeroth unprovoked, they attacked Gilneas unprovoked, they ravaged Pandaria unprovoked, Ashenvale in Cata was also started by the Horde...

the horde invaded azeroth by a portal a human open when they were still controlled by the legion, they like humans, were running from a bad place trying to take a place to live

The alliance went after the horde in the other continent, 2 times

Varian declared war against the horde in wtLK

they rage war trough all cataclysm

and the alliance also invaded pandaria

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Err no. thats not what you are trying to say aLl tHe TimE. All you have been repeating is that the draenei are to blame for not telling the orcs about the big bad demons. And what @Aucald is saying is that both are the victims.

im saying that BOTH also have blame in the story, because they did stupid things or wrong decisions, is not my fault that people are too focused on remove all draenei blame and put everything on the horde back

pick one. and stick with it.

this is the problem with you guys, things are not just 8 or 80, its not "don't have any blame" or "have all the blame", there is no use to have a small thinking and pick one side

yes the bad bad alliance players. only they have derailed threads ever, so evil. you havent done that ever right? Lets take a glancing trip on the mental gymnastics

.

answering the derailing is also derailing yes, but is not me who started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77baYweLQk [25:02]
so;
1. Grom knew
2. another orc tried to convince him
3. still drank again and got others to drink.

are you even serious right now? we are talking about the first time, in draenor, jesus Christ, stay on task if you want to drop by, of course he knew later who said he didn't in the second time? no one, because there was not the subject, that was low

but nooooooo thats

now lets see you trying with the actual events discussed, go on

[Specialka]

It's the same Alliance only because it's the spiritual successor. It's not the same organization, and Metzen never alluded to anything of the sort.

Yeah, because in that case, the Thrall's Horde would be the same than the first Horde.

[Mehrunes]

That wasn't just the humans though

This particular picture was, given the attire of people in it, hence why I used it. I know Elves participated in the war, but humans and their actions against the Trolls were the topic there.

Yeah no, thats not how it works, you cant say to the police "well the robers broke in, so to defend my property i burnt the house to the ground with them inside!"

that is not defence, that is martyrdom, or called a demolition trap

Criminal law has little applicability to war.

Yeah, because in that case, the Thrall's Horde would be the same than the first Horde.

Metzen was talking about the Alliance, not the Horde. And he said nothing about spirituality there. Or even successors. He flat out said they are the same Alliance. Thrall did get the mantle of Warchief from Orgrim though so there is some continuation between the two.

[matrix123mko]

Yeah no, thats not how it works, you cant say to the police "well the robers broke in, so to defend my property i burnt the house to the ground with them inside!"

that is not defence, that is martyrdom, or called a demolition trap

In my country you can't have conventional firearms but cannons are legal. Now you made me hesistant about buying one.

[Varodoc]

Yeah, because in that case, the Thrall's Horde would be the same than the first Horde.

Or the Roman Empire would be the same as the Byzantine Empire. That's what Metzen was referring to. The Grand Alliance is the Alliance of Lordaeron as its spiritual successor, which carries on its ideals and traditions, but it's very clearly not the same organization as it operates from a completely different base.

Plus it's even stated in the official story section in the official WoW website that the Grand Alliance was formed by Stormwind after the Third War, and that Ironforge and Gnomeregan pledged themselves to it (why would they need to do it again if the Alliance of Lordaeron never ceased to be?).

Also if I'm not mistaken Arthas at the end of the King Arthas mission in WC3 says something like "At last, the Alliance is no more."

[Mehrunes]

Or the Roman Empire would be the same as the Byzantine Empire. That's what Metzen was referring to. The Grand Alliance is the Alliance of Lordaeron as its spiritual successor, which carries on its ideals and traditions, but it's very clearly not the same organization as it operates from a completely different base.

Plus it's even stated in the official story section in the official WoW website that the Grand Alliance was formed by Stormwind after the Third War, and that Ironforge and Gnomeregan pledged themselves to it (why would they need to do it again if the Alliance of Lordaeron never ceased to be?).

Also if I'm not mistaken Arthas at the end of the King Arthas mission in WC3 says something like "At last, the Alliance is no more."

Stop making things up. Metzen still said no such thing and you won't magically alter reality if you repeat your blatant falsehood multiple times. And Byzantine Empire is a term used by historians. It didn't even exist prior to it collapsing. You know what that country called itself? The Roman Empire. And to continue the exploration of the theme of your unique relationship with the truth, WoW's website doesn't say what you pretend it does either. This is what it actually says:

Intent on settling the arid region of Durotar, Thrall's new Horde expanded its ranks, inviting the undead Forsaken to join orcs, tauren, and trolls. Meanwhile, dwarves, gnomes and the ancient night elves pledged their loyalties to a reinvigorated Alliance, guided by the human kingdom of Stormwind. After Stormwind's king, Varian Wrynn, mysteriously disappeared, Highlord Bolvar Fordragon served as Regent but his service was marred by the manipulations and mind control of the black dragon Onyxia, who ruled in disguise as a human noblewoman. As heroes investigated Onyxia's manipulations, ancient foes surfaced in lands throughout the world to menace Horde and Alliance alike.

Would you look at that. It calls the Alliance reinvigorated. And to be reinvigorated something must have existed prior to that and merely fallen on hard times because that's what the word means. Likewise, it doesn't say Stormwind formed it but that it took the guiding role. Meanwhile, contrary to your attempts at pretending otherwise, there is nothing preventing someone from repeating their pledge. Ever heard of renewing one's vows to their spouse? Or hell, let's not even stray from the topic of WoW factions. Everyone in the Horde pledged themselves to Sylvanas at Vol'jin's BBQ. By your logic that means the Horde stopped existing after Vol'jin's death and Sylvanas formed a new one.

[omeomorfismo]

Or the Roman Empire would be the same as the Byzantine Empire. That's what Metzen was referring to. The Grand Alliance is the Alliance of Lordaeron as its spiritual successor, which carries on its ideals and traditions, but it's very clearly not the same organization as it operates from a completely different base.

Plus it's even stated in the official story section in the official WoW website that the Grand Alliance was formed by Stormwind after the Third War, and that Ironforge and Gnomeregan pledged themselves to it (why would they need to do it again if the Alliance of Lordaeron never ceased to be?).

Also if I'm not mistaken Arthas at the end of the King Arthas mission in WC3 says something like "At last, the Alliance is no more."

the byzantines were literally the roman empire