Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[sam86]

what changed was the central point of power, it changed from lordaeron to Stormwind. the others didn't appear in wc3 because it was a shortgame with a short spawn of time and no one followed Medivh only Jaina and the survivors

they didn't appear in the frozen throne because also short spawn of time, the distance was big, and stormwind didn't seems to care much about lordaeron either. Kul'tiras only arrived after and they were more busy hunting the orcs

We have official lore answer
Varian (back when he was still a88hole) was busy killing orcs to care about saving world, he prefer to kill orcs over saving the world, Lordearon sent official request of help when the plague started to appear, expecting same help as they did to stormwind in wc1
Well they actually did get 'same exact help', even if wc1 Stormwind (back then was named Azeroth) didn't ask for help from orcs in first place and were stubborn sure of their victory alone until their end
Stormwind did offer same help, ie accept refugee, but didn't answer the call for help against the cult of the damned and the plague invasion, Varian had 2 priorities, killing orcs and attacking the defias brotherhood for dare to ask their hard-deserve-earned work payment
Also Metzen said clearly that wow alliance is continue of wc2 alliance, while wow horde is not related to wc2 horde, in fact they are enemies (until Garrosh recruited them... and basically formed his own horde)

[Mehrunes]

the byzantines were literally the roman empire

Hell, Justinian even reconquered Rome itself and good chunk of Italian peninsula from the Ostrogoths because he considered his divine mission to restore the ancient borders of the Roman Empire.

[sam86]

Yeah, because in that case, the Thrall's Horde would be the same than the first Horde.

except the old horde is literally a faction in wow, it exist in Blackrock, led by Rend and Maim Blackhand, and consider Thrall's horde (also sometimes called new horde) their enemy
Just log in-game and check UBRS monster guide or something, if u too lazy to check wowpedia
Unlike alliance, there are many factions called horde, old horde (wc2, still exist in classic wow), new horde (the playable one), fel horde (part of illidari forces), iron horde (AU bullsh8t), and i think there is 5th but can't remember it

[Minikin]

im saying that BOTH also have blame in the story, because they did stupid things or wrong decisions, is not my fault that people are too focused on remove all draenei blame and put everything on the horde back

yea and im saying that has not always been your tune.

this is the problem with you guys, things are not just 8 or 80, its not "don't have any blame" or "have all the blame", there is no use to have a small thinking and pick one side

problem with whom? you are the one constantly saying how the draenei are to blame for not sending love letters to their local orcish shaman. now all of a sudden you are like "but but they are both bad!". The draenei just like the orcs got corrupted by the legion, just on different planets. The draenei are to blame for their foolishness. the orcs are to blame for theirs. but all you have been running about with is "well no the draenei owe their neighbors a cosmological pamphlet on the big baddies out there". And we have been over this before. Would it have been ideal, that they told the orcs? heck yea (As stated before). Do they owe it to them to do so? No they do not (Also as stated before).

answering the derailing is also derailing yes, but is not me who started.

this must be some sort of trend. everytime a discussion reaches a point either becomes
1. YOU alliance people
2. I am not the one one derailing first, YOU are

are you even serious right now? we are talking about the first time, in draenor, jesus Christ, stay on task if you want to drop by, of course he knew later who said he didn't in the second time? no one, because there was not the subject, that was low now lets see you trying with the actual events discussed, go on

Do you not get it? the example is, time and time again orcs have chosen to drink the blood and found some reason to do so (or your case, find every excuse under the sun). That is the reason for the problem. the first time in draenor. the second time in ashenvale. and again in WoD. This is their arc. Orcs are meant to be misunderstood, but have a code of honor. Their tragedy is that due to their savagery they are used and abused. But they rise up and come out stronger, they survive, rebuild and carry on. yet here you come along and start assigning piece meal blame. You think the events in ashevale do not relate to the ones in draenor? Even though the orc in the vid says openly that the warchief forbids? Why would he forbid eh? He got an email from an earth spirit? Because he knows the past, thats why. It is all related and all relevant.

And if you want to excuse them for drinking the blood just so they could defeat cenarius, then you might as well excuse Arthas for what he did to Silvermoon.

[sam86]

are you even serious right now? we are talking about the first time, in draenor, jesus Christ, stay on task if you want to drop by, of course he knew later who said he didn't in the second time? no one, because there was not the subject, that was low

did they change it in the 0.0 rated reforge game or something? in the original wc3, he only knew that the fountain was cursed, nothing else, and cursed can mean many things
heck we cure a curse at least once in a quest in wc3 itself during the orc campaign prior (the crappy one in the lost isles when we save the trolls from the humans, who as usual attack them for dare to exist doing their fav hobby of genocide weaker races), a curse really mean a very wide variety of danger, can be small can be major, and facing 100% death from someone who decided to kill them for existing it will be weird to blame him for cursing himself to survive, and i bet if he knew it was Manaroth he would pick death instead of drink it again (there is zero mention about it being blood of Manaroth, he only knew the trick after he killed Cenarious in the cutscene)

[Mehrunes]

yea and im saying that has not always been your tune.

Since you're quire clearly referring to the other recent thread in which this tangent popped up, I already pointed out to you that you accusing @Syegfryed of that relies on you thinking that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. While ignoring the context of the discussion to boot. Because Syegfryed joined the topic (in that other thread) way after the subject of whether the Draenei had a hand in what happened to the Orcs or not. And them addressing the posts excusing the Draenei says nothing about whether or not Syegfryed considers the Orcs to also be in the wrong or not.

problem with whom? you are the one constantly saying how the draenei are to blame for not sending love letters to their local orcish shaman. now all of a sudden you are like "but but they are both bad!". The draenei just like the orcs got corrupted by the legion, just on different planets. The draenei are to blame for their foolishness. the orcs are to blame for theirs. but all you have been running about with is "well no the draenei owe their neighbors a cosmological pamphlet on the big baddies out there". And we have been over this before. Would it have been ideal, that they told the orcs? heck yea (As stated before). Do they owe it to them to do so? No they do not (Also as stated before).

I'm sorry, is there supposed to be some kind of mutual exclusion between Orcs being bad for the things they did and Draenei being bad for doing nothing to inform the inhabitants of the world they visited that they are actively hunted by Satan? And the Draenei were guests on their world. While your mileage quite obviously varies here, I'd wager most people would agree that one of the obligations of a guest is to inform the host that you put them in the crosshair of a demon army, just like it's the obligation of a guest not to fuck the host's wife. Add to that the part where you're making a straw-man because no one said anything about the Draenei being obligated to warn the Orcs about any and all cosmological threat, only the one they were personally hunted by.

[Minikin]

did they change it in the 0.0 rated reforge game or something? in the original wc3, he only knew that the fountain was cursed, nothing else, and cursed can mean many things
heck we cure a curse at least once in a quest in wc3 itself during the orc campaign prior (the crappy one in the lost isles when we save the trolls from the humans, who as usual attack them for dare to exist doing their fav hobby of genocide weaker races), a curse really mean a very wide variety of danger, can be small can be major, and facing 100% death from someone who decided to kill them for existing it will be weird to blame him for cursing himself to survive, and i bet if he knew it was Manaroth he would pick death instead of drink it again (there is zero mention about it being blood of Manaroth, he only knew the trick after he killed Cenarious in the cutscene)

they were going to make bigger changes apparently as per https://www.polygon.com/2019/11/1/20...f-warcraft-wow, but they didnt.

they have however added some extra flairs.

[Feanoro]

they were going to make bigger changes apparently as per https://www.polygon.com/2019/11/1/20...f-warcraft-wow, but they didnt.

they have however added some extra flairs.

Thank God some sanity prevailed, although it's more likely they just wanted to play the nostalgia card to sell more units. Not like WC3 was literature for the ages, but at least it's not BfA level.

[Minikin]

Thank God some sanity prevailed, although it's more likely they just wanted to play the nostalgia card to sell more units. Not like WC3 was literature for the ages, but at least it's not BfA level.

at risk of sending this thread into a red raged overdrive....

some of the flairs were suggested by Christie Golden, as per another polygon article.

[Specialka]

Stop making things up. Metzen still said no such thing and you won't magically alter reality if you repeat your blatant falsehood multiple times. And Byzantine Empire is a term used by historians. It didn't even exist prior to it collapsing. You know what that country called itself? The Roman Empire. And to continue the exploration of the theme of your unique relationship with the truth, WoW's website doesn't say what you pretend it does either. This is what it actually says:


Would you look at that. It calls the Alliance reinvigorated. And to be reinvigorated something must have existed prior to that and merely fallen on hard times because that's what the word means. Likewise, it doesn't say Stormwind formed it but that it took the guiding role. Meanwhile, contrary to your attempts at pretending otherwise, there is nothing preventing someone from repeating their pledge. Ever heard of renewing one's vows to their spouse? Or hell, let's not even stray from the topic of WoW factions. Everyone in the Horde pledged themselves to Sylvanas at Vol'jin's BBQ. By your logic that means the Horde stopped existing after Vol'jin's death and Sylvanas formed a new one.

As usual, you adjust reality to fit your argument xD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

And why would they pledge their loyalty to something they already did in the past? You pledge yourself to a new king and you do it once.

[Mehrunes]

As usual, you adjust reality to fit your argument xD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

And why would they pledge their loyalty to something they already did in the past? You pledge yourself to a new king and you do it once.

From your link:

"Byzantine Empire" is a term created after the end of the realm; its citizens continued to refer to their empire simply as the Roman Empire (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων, tr. Basileia Rhōmaiōn; Latin: Imperium Romanum),[2] or Romania (Greek: Ῥωμανία, tr. Rhōmania), and to themselves as "Romans".

Top notch ability to read your own sources.

And why would they pledge their loyalty to something they already did in the past? You pledge yourself to a new king and you do it once.

I literally quoted the source @Varodoc was blatantly misrepresenting and showed how in actuality it says that the Alliance was merely reinvigorated, not recreated or anything of the sort. So what are you even trying to achieve here? And have you ever heard about the pledge of allegiance? In most US states students have to make it routinely. By yours and Varodoc's logic that means US routinely ceases to exist and is then recreated. But given how some states don't require that, only partially or something.

[Varodoc]

As usual, you adjust reality to fit your argument xD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

And why would they pledge their loyalty to something they already did in the past? You pledge yourself to a new king and you do it once.

Yep. It's just like the Byzantine Empire. Their people considered themselves romans but it's clear that the Byzantine Empire was an entirely different state from the Roman Empire. Same thing with the Grand Alliance and Alliance of Lordaeron. The Grand Alliance is no longer the Alliance of Lordaeron. Hint: The reason is in the name. There's nothing left "of Lordaeron" in the Grand Alliance.

Arthas destroyed the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why Garithos and his forces called themselves either New Alliance or Alliance Remnants, but never Alliance of Lordaeron.

But as usual Horde players take that statement from Metzen at face value without actually analyzing its meaning in-depth.

[Specialka]

From your link:


Top notch ability to read your own sources.

Obv, and you still fail at understanding the whole link xD Top notch reading comprehension right there xD

The Roman Empire had Rome at its capital. That "Roman Empire" also called Eastern Roman Empire had Constantinople. Sure, they were the same xD

As usual, you only take what fits your argument.

[Syegfryed]

yea and im saying that has not always been your tune.

it always have been, if you have actually followed the discussion

problem with whom? you are the one constantly saying how the draenei are to blame for not sending love letters to their local orcish shaman now all of a sudden you are like "but but they are both bad!".

just because im making a statement about a thing don't equal im against the other, just because i said the draeneis are ALSO to blame, don't imply that im also saying the orcs are not to blame, the problem that i talked showing off

Your satirical exaggeration of the case isn't going to help or making more believable

but all you have been running about with is "well no the draenei owe their neighbors a cosmological pamphlet on the big baddies out there".

if the central point of discussion is about draenei blame, i see literally no reason to keep emphasizing that the orcs also had to blame, in every comment of mine when its common knowledge and nowhere i said orcs are devoid of blame

this must be some sort of trend. everytime a discussion reaches a point either becomes
1. YOU alliance people
2. I am not the one one derailing first, YOU are

the derail started with another user who like to extrapolate and bring other things in the discussion, you just came in the middle of it

Do you not get it? the example is, time and time again orcs have chosen to drink the blood and found some reason to do so

thats bullshit, first you talk "the orcs did" as the whole race did, thats completely preposterous

The first time only a few chieftains did, the others got corrupted without their consent, they never knew it was demon blood and did only to deliver the final blow in shattrath

The second time ONLY ONE CLAN(and SOME individuals, grom and the orcs in the fountain) and grom was already suffering bloodlust by Manoroth presence, Grom did to save the clan.

The third time is just a joke of history because blizzard is incompetent, and surprise, this time Grom didn't and most of the horde was against it

yet here you come along and start assigning piece meal blame.

Again, saying draenei had blame doesn't equal im saying the orcs don't have any

You think the events in ashevale do not relate to the ones in draenor?

they are completely different yet similar events with completely different circumstances

Even though the orc in the vid says openly that the warchief forbids? Why would he forbid eh? He got an email from an earth spirit? Because he knows the past, thats why. It is all related and all relevant.

who said he didn't?

And if you want to excuse them for drinking the blood just so they could defeat cenarius, then you might as well excuse Arthas for what he did to Silvermoon.

now you are comparing apples to oranges, those events are not related, Attacking silvermoon was never by arthas survival and his genocide was by pure spite against the elven race, Grom was already affected by the bloodlust and drink to survive.

of course i never said i want to excuse a thing, you are implying things i never said, im saying the first time Grom drink it(the one who was actually being discussed) its not the same to arthas getting frostmourne.

[Mehrunes]

Obv, and you still fail at understanding the whole link xD Top notch reading comprehension right there xD

The Roman Empire had Rome at its capital. That "Roman Empire" also called Eastern Roman Empire had Constantinople. Sure, they were the same xD

As usual, you only take what fits your argument.

Instead of making the hole you dug yourself into even deeper reread what I actually said about the Byzantine Empire. Hint: it's precisely what I then requoted from your link. Who'd have thunk.

And you don't even know Roman history it seems. The division into Western and Eastern Empire was seen as an administrative split by the Romans themselves. And Rome remained the de jure capital of both parts. While in de facto terms the Western Empire used Ravenna as the capital for nearly a century prior to its fall so here goes "it's the Roman Empire so the Rome had to be capital, duh. Pay no attention to the Roman people" thought. And when Ostrogoths captured Ravenna the western emperor sent the imperial regalia to Constantinople.

And since you made my reply to your edit to your previous post:

And why would they pledge their loyalty to something they already did in the past? You pledge yourself to a new king and you do it once.

I literally quoted the source @Varodoc was blatantly misrepresenting and showed how in actuality it says that the Alliance was merely reinvigorated, not recreated or anything of the sort. So what are you even trying to achieve here? And have you ever heard about the pledge of allegiance? In most US states students have to make it routinely. By yours and Varodoc's logic that means US routinely ceases to exist and is then recreated. But given how some states don't require that, only partially or something.

[Syegfryed]

did they change it in the 0.0 rated reforge game or something? in the original wc3, he only knew that the fountain was cursed, nothing else, and cursed can mean many things

he knew the pool was cursed by some demon magic, only thing he knew, and again, he was already affected by the bloodlust.

he even was surprised when manoroth shows up later, thinking he was free.

- - - Updated - - -

Since you're quire clearly referring to the other recent thread in which this tangent popped up, I already pointed out to you that you accusing @Syegfryed of that relies on you thinking that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. While ignoring the context of the discussion to boot. Because Syegfryed joined the topic (in that other thread) way after the subject of whether the Draenei had a hand in what happened to the Orcs or not. And them addressing the posts excusing the Draenei says nothing about whether or not Syegfryed considers the Orcs to also be in the wrong or not..

Dude think every single time i say the draneis are also to blame, i have to put an announcement that the orcs are to blame too, or im automatically saying orcs don't have any blame and in the same time i imply is ALL draenei fault

[Specialka]

Instead of making the hole you dug yourself into even deeper reread what I actually said about the Byzantine Empire. Hint: it's precisely what I then requoted from your link. Who'd have thunk.

And you don't even know Roman history it seems. The division into Western and Eastern Empire was seen as an administrative split by the Romans themselves. And Rome remained the de jure capital of both parts. While in de facto terms the Western Empire used Ravenna as the capital for nearly a century prior to its fall so here goes "it's the Roman Empire so the Rome had to be capital, duh. Pay no attention to the Roman people" thought. And when Ostrogoths captured Ravenna the western emperor sent the imperial regalia to Constantinople.

And since you made my reply to your edit to your previous post:


I literally quoted the source @Varodoc was blatantly misrepresenting and showed how in actuality it says that the Alliance was merely reinvigorated, not recreated or anything of the sort. So what are you even trying to achieve here? And have you ever heard about the pledge of allegiance? In most US states students have to make it routinely. By yours and Varodoc's logic that means US routinely ceases to exist and is then recreated. But given how some states don't require that, only partially or something.

And they pledged themselves to it, meaning it is a new alliance. Stop digging your hole xD

[Mehrunes]

Yep. It's just like the Byzantine Empire. Their people considered themselves romans but it's clear that the Byzantine Empire was an entirely different state from the Roman Empire. Same thing with the Grand Alliance and Alliance of Lordaeron. The Grand Alliance is no longer the Alliance of Lordaeron. Hint: The reason is in the name. There's nothing left "of Lordaeron" in the Grand Alliance.

Arthas destroyed the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why Garithos and his forces called themselves either New Alliance or Alliance Remnants, but never Alliance of Lordaeron.

But as usual Horde players take that statement from Metzen at face value without actually analyzing its meaning in-depth.

Oh, it's Horde players taking that statement at face value now? How quaint. Prior to this post you repeatedly tried to pretend that Metzen "never even alluded" to them being the same. But hey, if you accuse Horde posters of "not actually analyzing its meaning in-depth" (read: you projecting whatever you want onto it) maybe people won't notice your goalpost movement! Brilliant strategy

Never mind that even putting all of that aside your whole Byzantium comparison here falls completely flat because the Alliance isn't a state. There's nothing left of Lordaeron in the Grand Alliance? So what? The EU didn't cease being the EU just because UK is no longer a member. International organizations work by different rules than states. And your argument won't become valid through some mystical means just because you're either not aware of that or are deliberately conflating the two.

And they pledged themselves to it, meaning it is a new alliance. Stop digging your hole xD

Which part of the WoW's official website flat out contradicting that did you not understand? Which part of an example of a pledge that is made repeatedly without the subject of the pledge magically ceasing to exist because of that did you not understand either? Just parroting a phrase from what you were replying to won't randomly your argument +50 to validity.

[Specialka]

Oh, it's Horde players taking that statement at face value now? How quaint. Prior to this post you repeatedly tried to pretend that Metzen "never even alluded" to them being the same. But hey, if you accuse Horde posters of "not actually analyzing its meaning in-depth" (read: you projecting whatever you want onto it) maybe people won't notice your goalpost movement! Brilliant strategy

Never mind that even putting all of that aside your whole Byzantium comparison here falls completely flat because the Alliance isn't a state. There's nothing left of Lordaeron in the Grand Alliance? So what? The EU didn't cease being the EU just because UK is no longer a member. International organizations work by different rules than states. And your argument won't become valid through some mystical means just because you're either not aware of that or are deliberately conflating the two.

- - - Updated - - -



Which part of the WoW's official website flat out contradicting that did you not understand? Which part of an example of a pledge that is made repeatedly without the subject of the pledge magically ceasing to exist because of that did you not understand either? Just parroting a phrase from what you were replying to won't randomly your argument +50 to validity.

Oh and now, we compare wow to international law and such? And we can't do it for the definition of genocide? xD Again you only pick what you need to "win" some silly argument on Internet xD

[Feanoro]

But as usual Horde players take that statement from Metzen at face value without actually analyzing its meaning in-depth.

Seems to be a common problem for them: everything taken literally, face value, no subtlety, if it isn't explicitly spelled out it's not there. Any attempt to suggest otherwise, and you get screeching that you're lying and predictable insults. (I even know exactly what replies this post will get, and from whom.) God knows why anyone would bother to lie about this, but maybe they think there's a vast Alliance conspiracy?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and now, we compare wow to international law and such? And we can't do it for the definition of genocide? xD Again you only pick what you need to "win" some silly argument on Internet xD

You're surprised? Also, aren't those some beautiful cherries?