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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    not this is a big headcanon but Grom was being affected by the bloodhaze what the mere presence of Manoroth was clouding his judgment, he saw in the campaign.

    Arthas did choose sacrifice muradin and get the cursed weapon, and he already did bad things before, there was no mindcontrol
    there is some evidence that frostmourne and nerzhul had been "speaking" to arthas.
    When the weapon broke free, Muradin was struck by a rogue shard of ice. Arthas moved to help Muradin, but was dissuaded by the call of Frostmourne in his mind.
    and
    there was definitely something happening in his head, but in the end he is to blame for falling to it.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    It was Constantinople. Dude, you can't even read some wiki.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And countries have pledged themselves only one time to NATO and such. You are wrong, period.
    Except for the part where the WoW's site that I already quoted says something else. Also, you are conflating two different tangents that appeared in the discussion now, i.e. whether Alliance is a an alliance like NATO (if only we had a hint in its name) or not and whether pledging yourself to a nation again means it ceased to exist and you are actually creating a new one (where the example of the pledge of allegiance I also already made clearly shows that it doesn't).
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-03-25 at 09:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    there is some evidence that frostmourne and nerzhul had been "speaking" to arthas.

    and


    there was definitely something happening in his head, but in the end he is to blame for falling to it.
    he was being influenced yes, not mind controlled

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Right.





    Except for the part where the WoW's site that I already quoted says something else. Also, you are conflating two different tangents that appeared in the discussion now, i.e. whether Alliance is a an alliance like NATO (if only we had a hint in its name) or not and whether pledging yourself to a nation again means it ceased to exist and you are actually creating a new one (where the example of the pledge of allegiance I also already made clearly shows that it doesn't).
    So after 476 AD, it was more than an administration trick. Kthxbye

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-25 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So after 476 AD, it was more than an administration trick. Kthxbye
    Yes, once a country loses its capital city that city ceases to be the capital city. Which is... rather obvious. And doesn't make the country cease to exist. Or do you think that France ceased to exist in 1420 when the English conquered Paris and the France that existed afterwards was a completely new entity made up on the spot by the French, with its only link to the France that fell being a spiritual connection?
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-03-25 at 09:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, once a country loses its capital city that city ceases to be the capital city. Which is... rather obvious. And doesn't make the country cease to exist. Or do you think that France ceased to exist in 1420 when the English conquered Paris and the France that existed afterwards was a completely new entity made up on the spot by the French?
    It is not like the Eastern Roman Empire had its own Emperor after all.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    if we don't assume, then the only orc who rly did drink is kil'rog, then falls the argument of "the orchish race as a whole did, and the whole race are demonsucking monsters"
    not entirely because the raid has demon crazed orcs. so we know some orcs did. the only thing we dont know is, how many did and how many didnt.

    we are going in what see in previous events

    In the first time only a few chieftains did, and was enough to put the entire horde corrupted in a bloodlust bound by the Legion will, the only ones safe were the ones far away in quarentene.

    The second time only Grom and some soldiers with him drank it, and the clan with him got corrupted, even the beasts were affected by fel energies like the Kodo.

    With those events, and they only showing kil'rog drinking, we can expect the same scenario, only a few drinking and fucking everyone else, only the ones with "iron will" were able to resist, like Grom and Ariok(again completely bullshit from the wod writers, they don't even put their colors right, they should be green, or if the demon blood was more potent, it should be red, nothing make much sense anyway.)
    well this is why i am saying its tough to assume because of retcons or additions. they didnt have Ariok or w.e in the original story. but it is important to remember that the previous games didnt really allow for deeper side stories and characters. Now we are in an actual world rather than a 2d map. so it allows them to add items. Which isnt a bad thing. the issue happens when based on the older story we have made assumptions, then new layers are added and some of those assumptions fail. The only safe way to deal with that is to simply get that now we are in a game were both sides are playable as factions. before it was just a linear story. So things will not be as clear. no one wants to be branded a monster. it just gets excessive if one side keeps being made to look like the evil savages and the other side the wonderful civilized healers.


    i know the reason they went to the sunwell, im saying it was not necessary killing 90% of their race, arthas did because he was pissed.
    well that was to be expected no?
    1. Blood elves wont just give up their power source, they need it
    2. Arthas wont just stop and being a deathknight this is just a good excuse to add to his army

    we cannot say he did it because he was pissed because we have no proof of it. the only proof of him being pissed at someone was sylvanas due to her constant defense strategy. which is why he went out of his way to torture her. he if you look at the dead scar, it makes a straight line towards quel danas and the sunwell. the capital city is aside it. sure some zombies might have made it in and caused havoc who knows. but what we do know is that when tichondrius tells him to go to QT he has to ask why there? He has no specific agenda against the elves. only sylvanas.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    It is not like the Eastern Roman Empire had its own Emperor after all.
    And during Diocletian there were four emperors. That was before the split into the Western and Eastern Empire. So what's your point here? Also, as I already pointed out, the eastern emperor received the imperial regalia from the western one. And it's not something you do with another nation for safekeeping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    well that was to be expected no?
    1. Blood elves wont just give up their power source, they need it
    2. Arthas wont just stop and being a deathknight this is just a good excuse to add to his army

    we cannot say he did it because he was pissed because we have no proof of it. the only proof of him being pissed at someone was sylvanas due to her constant defense strategy. which is why he went out of his way to torture her. he if you look at the dead scar, it makes a straight line towards quel danas and the sunwell. the capital city is aside it. sure some zombies might have made it in and caused havoc who knows. but what we do know is that when tichondrius tells him to go to QT he has to ask why there? He has no specific agenda against the elves. only sylvanas.
    His words aren't proof? Telling her the reasons why he decided to genocide the High Elves is one of the things he tortured her with. From Rise of the Lich King:
    “It did not have to be this way. Know that your fate, theirs, and that of your people, rests upon your choices. But I must press on to the Sunwell. And you will assist me.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he was being influenced yes, not mind controlled
    didnt say he was. just saying that there was something happening behind the scenes. similarly with the orcs, all we know of the control is the blood haze mentioned by grom. they dont really explain how does Mannoroth exercise control over them.

    as in, is it because it reduces their inhibitions and gives them a ton of physical strength, like when they come under threat they lose all control and exercise that power. But if that is the case then how do kodos become affected. Which would mean its more than just pissing them off and watching orcs lose control, probably magical. but magical how? voices? control? who knows.

    Same with the lich king. we dont know how he would control arthas with just words. perhaps there was more, its dangerous to assume. because in the original game we didnt even know that frostmourne and nerzhul talked to him. that was revealed much later. And hopefully more will be explained about it in SL.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    we have no real proof of that though. and assuming so is unfair to the orcs because we dont really know the concept of their control, beyond crazed rage.
    Mal'Ganis says Frostmourne stole Arthas' soul, and we know that he's under the Lich King's control. Maybe mind control isn't quite right, but Arthas effectively ceased to be himself when he picked it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Arthas did choose sacrifice muradin and get the cursed weapon, and he already did bad things before, there was no mindcontrol
    I said after he picked up Frostmourne. He was absolutely responsible for everything he did before that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    not entirely because the raid has demon crazed orcs. so we know some orcs did. the only thing we dont know is, how many did and how many didnt.
    like i said, you don't need to drink the blood to be demon crazed, after they got corrupted they could very well just drink after it, but thats not the point since they were not in their right minds anymore.

    well this is why i am saying its tough to assume because of retcons or additions. they didnt have Ariok or w.e in the original story. but it is important to remember that the previous games didnt really allow for deeper side stories and characters.
    the only problem here is Wod and how they added bullshit for the rule of cool while ignoring the factors already established, like orcs+fel=green not that sick gray

    well that was to be expected no?
    1. Blood elves wont just give up their power source, they need it
    2. Arthas wont just stop and being a deathknight this is just a good excuse to add to his army

    we cannot say he did it because he was pissed because we have no proof of it. the only proof of him being pissed at someone was sylvanas due to her constant defense strategy. which is why he went out of his way to torture her. he if you look at the dead scar, it makes a straight line towards quel danas and the sunwell. the capital city is aside it. sure some zombies might have made it in and caused havoc who knows. but what we do know is that when tichondrius tells him to go to QT he has to ask why there? He has no specific agenda against the elves. only sylvanas.
    after they deal with kel'thuzand they still hunt and kill every elf there, was not necessary but he did because he wanted, at least is what i remember from chronicles, just like sylvanas

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Mal'Ganis says Frostmourne stole Arthas' soul, and we know that he's under the Lich King's control. Maybe mind control isn't quite right, but Arthas effectively ceased to be himself when he picked it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I said after he picked up Frostmourne. He was absolutely responsible for everything he did before that point.
    for sure he was being influenced, but don't look like mind control since arthas himself later killed Ner'zhul to be the only lich king

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    like i said, you don't need to drink the blood to be demon crazed, after they got corrupted they could very well just drink after it, but thats not the point since they were not in their right minds anymore.
    Yea but then how did the kodos and all get affected. And why was there a line up initially when it was done the first time in draenor.


    the only problem here is Wod and how they added bullshit for the rule of cool while ignoring the factors already established, like orcs+fel=green not that sick gray
    Eh I tend to stay away from the whole "rule of cool" cool thing. The story definitely has issues but sometimes people go completely overboard if it doesn't go their way using that term and others.

    after they deal with kel'thuzand they still hunt and kill every elf there, was not necessary but he did because he wanted, at least is what i remember from chronicles, just like sylvanas
    I know but he is a deathknight after all. It would be kind of odd if he just goes for the sunwell and nothing else. His army is comprised of the undead. You know what they say "gotta break a few eggs to make an omlete".

    My point is, he didn't proceed to QT with hate for the blood elves in mind. That doesn't mean he won't genocide them anyway (he's a deathknight he most probably would). He went for the sunwell. As in if the sunwell was in arathi then he wouldn't have gone to QT and the elf mainlands until he needed more bodies. Yea afterwards he kills them cuz he got pissed but not initially.

    As thanos says "In all my years of conquest, violence, slaughter, it was never personal. But I'll tell you now, what I'm about to do to your stubborn, annoying little planet... I'm going to enjoy it. Very, very much."
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    If only we had more sources on Velen's stance prior to Cataclysm than just this story. Like, I dunno, the pre-event of Cataclysm or the Shattering book. And if only both of these showed him explicitly expressing the desire to GTFO because in his mind nothing could be done about the Cataclysm and he already saw it on Draenor so he wanted to jump ship before it happened. And please do tell me more about this mysterious world of yours where the Draenei leaving Azeroth either to fight the Legion or to settle on Draenor again as being somehow mutually exclusive with them abandoning Azerothians to die. Then please scorn me for how wrong my reading of things is when you are the one that completely ignores the reason why they were trying to leave in the first place and instead focused exclusively on what they wanted to do after leaving.
    I'd reckon any world where it's weird to say that someone is abandoning another to die by the hand of an enemy, when they set out to try and defeat that enemy before they even get to you. That one. Or the one where them going somewhere doesn't mean they are not able to come back. Maraad specifically wanted to leave in order to stop the Legion from destroying more worlds and to help those that suffered under them. He was the one pushing to leave in that story. It's all in the story, really.

  14. #554
    It's extremely simple, really. Those factions were set up during Warcraft, when the lore wasn't running in an MMO but rather an RTS. Now that there are two sides that have to be satisfied, Blizzard made classically known factions as neutral in order to help bring older players back.

    If you're wondering why Warcraft storytelling sucks under an MMO faction system, this is one of the reasons why. The story making sense won't keep the game afloat, not unless the lore STARTS out within an MMO.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Yea but then how did the kodos and all get affected. And why was there a line up initially when it was done the first time in draenor.
    because the fel energies around then affected the kodos just like the orcs, fel energy spreads and corrupt like radiation, everyone was fucked, and when grom drank it, it just reinvigorated the pact once more, it was what they call law of sympathy

    Eh I tend to stay away from the whole "rule of cool" cool thing. The story definitely has issues but sometimes people go completely overboard if it doesn't go their way using that term and others.
    but wod was a shitshow, its common sense, like i said, they didn't even got the color right, they just wanted to stay away from the past, and do something unique on their own, not realizing they were making a mistake.


    As thanos says "In all my years of conquest, violence, slaughter, it was never personal. But I'll tell you now, what I'm about to do to your stubborn, annoying little planet... I'm going to enjoy it. Very, very much."
    is basically what i was tying to say, he was pissed with then by their resistance, so he savored it.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    for sure he was being influenced, but don't look like mind control since arthas himself later killed Ner'zhul to be the only lich king
    After he had merged with him. Little bit different than when he was serving as a DK champion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    because the fel energies around then affected the kodos just like the orcs, fel energy spreads and corrupt like radiation, everyone was fucked, and when grom drank it, it just reinvigorated the pact once more, it was what they call law of sympathy
    they havent associated the law of sympathy to the blood haze. specifically it is applied to arcane magic, rather than fel energy as far as wow is concerned. we can assume (problem) that blood haze might be arcane in nature as demons have indeed used arcane, but the evidence is more that it is felbased due to it being called felblood at times and it is quite literally from the blood of a demon.


    but wod was a shitshow, its common sense, like i said, they didn't even got the color right, they just wanted to stay away from the past, and do something unique on their own, not realizing they were making a mistake.
    iam not saying WoD is a work of art. I am saying that since they made the game part of the story, whether we as players like it or not, it is now canon.

    is basically what i was tying to say, he was pissed with then by their resistance, so he savored it.
    my point is slightly different. its that, since over time we are being told that arthas was being spoken to and such we dont really have much of an idea how he was being controlled or influenced or even if they are two different things. in the initial game we had no idea that frostmourne was talking to him. or that nerzhul spoke to him. we got that bit of info in the last expac. similarly we do not know how specifically manoroth controlled or compelled the orcs. we can assume, but you already know my misgivings on assumptions. which is why the only thing i can say with surety is that both are at fault for falling to tricks/schemes or w.e.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    Because outside from faction conflict expansions the Horde is utterly irrelevant for the story and Blizzard can't even be bothered to use or create proper factions for them.

    That is why i have to constantly follow fucking Brann Bronzebeard from the Explorers League around with my Horde characters, instead of following Highwatcher Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher from the Reliquary. Or why i have to follow Khadgar through WoD as a Horde character, instead of some Horde mage/warlock/shaman whatever doing his job. As, again, Blizzard can't even be arsed to build up a proper Horde mage like Rommath for example.
    Probably this XD

    Blizzard can't be bothered with building new characters/factions so they use the ones they can borrow from the original Warcraft games.

  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    After he had merged with him. Little bit different than when he was serving as a DK champion.
    but still was him inside him, and he killed Ner'zhul, meaning he was the only one, if he was being mindcontrolled all along pretty sure he would have said that in his monologue, or his decisions would be lot different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    they havent associated the law of sympathy to the blood haze. specifically it is applied to arcane magic, rather than fel energy as far as wow is concerned. we can assume (problem) that blood haze might be arcane in nature as demons have indeed used arcane, but the evidence is more that it is felbased due to it being called felblood at times and it is quite literally from the blood of a demon.
    Fel magic is very similar to arcane magic and sometimes even better to do some things like portals, why it would not be the same thing just in different magic source?? and its canon fact, only few orcs drink it, Grom and varok were exemjples, Ogrin didn't, yet, every one of the orcs got corrupted and not just corrupted, but bounded to the Legion and Manoroth

    Mannoroth:"The orcs are mine by right, and I will claim them
    Tichondrius says the blood pact bind all orcs, not just the ones who drink it., law of sympathy

    Tichondrius: Yes, but so are yours. The blood pact that you made with the orcs long ago still binds them to you. You need only recharge their energies.
    iam not saying WoD is a work of art. I am saying that since they made the game part of the story, whether we as players like it or not, it is now canon.
    even as a clusterfuck didn't changed much, by wod we can only gather is that some orcs evena round could resist by "iron will" and sometimes by some reason they just go gray instead of green, and when you drink demon blood, a skull in your beard suddenly transform into 3

    my point is slightly different. its that, since over time we are being told that arthas was being spoken to and such we dont really have much of an idea how he was being controlled or influenced or even if they are two different things. in the initial game we had no idea that frostmourne was talking to him. or that nerzhul spoke to him. we got that bit of info in the last expac. similarly we do not know how specifically manoroth controlled or compelled the orcs. we can assume, but you already know my misgivings on assumptions. which is why the only thing i can say with surety is that both are at fault for falling to tricks/schemes or w.e.
    without ner'zhul and his influence arthas still did what he wanted anyway, and frostmourne were mere whispers, and when the LK lost control of the powerful undead, arthas would also be "free" like sylvanas, but he did it anyway.

    Manoroth and the legion presence induced the orcs with bloodlust, we see with Grom in the campaign where He fight humans against thrall order, where he said the demons were coming, then he come to his senses

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    without ner'zhul and his influence arthas still did what he wanted anyway, and frostmourne were mere whispers, and when the LK lost control of the powerful undead, arthas would also be "free" like sylvanas, but he did it anyway.
    Alternately, the LK used his remaining power to summon his champion to come and save him from Illidan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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