How the European Union may not survive the Coronavirus

[Acidbaron]

wrong thread

[caervek]

Really?

Yup, you see many refer to Churchill as "the father of Europe" and in many ways it's true, it was Churchill who called in 1946 for a United States of Europe and for reconciliation between France and Germany (“the re-creation of the European family”), which arguably was the catalyst for what became the EU movement.

However what a lot of people unfamiliar with the history often miss without proper context is that he intended for the UK/USA/USSR to be friends/allies of this united Europe but he never wanted the UK to be involved with it, his priorities were the strengthening of the UK/US relationship and for the rebuilding or relations with the colonies.

To quote the man himself:

We are with Europe, but not of it, We are linked but not comprised.

We help, we dedicate, we play a part, but we are not merged with and do not forfeit our insular or Commonwealth character.... It is only when plans for uniting Europe take a federal form that we ourselves cannot take part, because we cannot subordinate ourselves or the control of British policy to federal authorities.

We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition ‘with’ but not ‘of’ — we are with them, but not of them.

To put it in perspective, if Churchill had known the British empire and the commonwealth were doomed to fall into irrelevance then he would have campaigned for the UK to join the USA before he would have campaigned for it to join the EU (random fact, Churchill actually drew up a plan for the UK to enter a currency union with the US dollar but it never came to anything).

[Mihalik]

To put it in perspective, if Churchill had known the British empire and the commonwealth were doomed to fall into irrelevance then he would have campaigned for the UK to join the USA before he would have campaigned for it to join the EU (random fact, Churchill actually drew up a plan for the UK to enter a currency union with the US dollar but it never came to anything).

Those quotes you just put in, they are discussed in 2 of the 3 links I provided which explain how they are all taken out of context for the purpose of trying to frame Churchill as having views he never actually held. You are literally doing the very selective out of context quoting I'm talking about.

Churchill also had plans for federalizing Britain and France. Tho this is literally the first time I've heard about a British American Churchillian currency union. Sources? I have a vague suspicion it might be either a, wartime proposal b, a post war economic stabilization proposal, but I'd like to see sources.

But my point remains. You are taking Churchill out of context aka quote mining, to try to get him to fit your politics.

[Shadowferal]

On a related note; German cathedral prepares showcase for relics of Saint Corona, patron of epidemics

Reuters reported that the Aachen Cathedral in Germany had already been planning to showcase relics and a shrine of St. Corona as part of an exhibition of gold craftsmanship, but has now accelerated those plans after the coincidentally-named outbreak began.

“We have brought the shrine out a bit earlier than planned and now we expect more interest due to the virus,” said a cathedral spokeswoman.

“Like many other saints, Saint Corona may be a source of hope in these difficult times,” added the head of the cathedral's relics trove in a statement to Reuters.

It is unclear when the exhibition will go on display due to the ongoing epidemic and related restrictions on public gatherings.

Germany has confirmed more than 35,000 cases of coronavirus, though it lags behind other European countries such as Italy and Spain which have become the hardest-hit worldwide by the virus.

The Aachen Cathedral is one of the oldest churches in Europe, and was built in the 9th century. The relics of St. Corona have reportedly rested there since the year 997 A.D.

[Slant]

When you've been given a country with artificial borders and forced cohabitation of peoples that are openly hostile to each other and any attempt to separate is given no support not just by the regional powers but by the global powers as well, including those who created the mess in the first place, the latter maintain a relevant level of responsibility imo. At least until they at least make a minimal effort to fix the mess they made.

Oh, boo-hoo, cry me a river. Sorry, which country in its past hasn't had to overcome difficulties like that? Israel isn't the problem. The problem is everyone else in the region not being able to get their shit together. Israel is there to stay, end of story. Israel isn't causing any of the madness happening down there. Israel is acting very, VERY restrained outside of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Nah man, this is on the people in the Middle East. Not all of them, but enough of them to cause trouble.

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Maybe but in allot of cases the former colonial power never really left and still has allot of influence (ME countries often).
Furthermore what time frame do you think it's appropriate for what may be in certain cases centuries of ''mismanagement''. Some of these countries are technically 80 years old and some of there leaders took control and kept control because of outside influence.

Lets take Egypte as an example. The army was de facto in power in Egypte pre Arab spring and after the Arab spring they technically lost there power, however a few short years leader they are back in power and the democratically elected leader was imprisoned after a year.
The coup that happend in Egypte in 2013 could only happen if the military had enough outside support once they got into power, as to avoid total collapse of the Economy.

Germany is 80 years old. And we've been bombed to hell and back. So no, I won't say any ridiculous number. They have got to duke it out or find a solution. They keep causing trouble and looking to the West for help. It's time they learn to swim. I'll give them the latest interference by the US as an excuse, and if they want to go whinge at the door of the US, be my guest. But that's not what's going on now, is it... No, everyone and their fucking dog looks to Europe for solutions.

Well, we have solutions for these issues... but I'm not so sure they'd like being colonies again...

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On a related note; German cathedral prepares showcase for relics of Saint Corona, patron of epidemics

Reuters reported that the Aachen Cathedral in Germany had already been planning to showcase relics and a shrine of St. Corona as part of an exhibition of gold craftsmanship, but has now accelerated those plans after the coincidentally-named outbreak began.

“We have brought the shrine out a bit earlier than planned and now we expect more interest due to the virus,” said a cathedral spokeswoman.

“Like many other saints, Saint Corona may be a source of hope in these difficult times,” added the head of the cathedral's relics trove in a statement to Reuters.

It is unclear when the exhibition will go on display due to the ongoing epidemic and related restrictions on public gatherings.

Germany has confirmed more than 35,000 cases of coronavirus, though it lags behind other European countries such as Italy and Spain which have become the hardest-hit worldwide by the virus.

The Aachen Cathedral is one of the oldest churches in Europe, and was built in the 9th century. The relics of St. Corona have reportedly rested there since the year 997 A.D.

To what is this related, exactly? Or are we just going to list everyone random article with "corona" in the headline now?

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh, boo-hoo, cry me a river. Sorry, which country in its past hasn't had to overcome difficulties like that? Israel isn't the problem. The problem is everyone else in the region not being able to get their shit together. Israel is there to stay, end of story. Israel isn't causing any of the madness happening down there. Israel is acting very, VERY restrained outside of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Keeping an enitre country in a indoor prison, shooting anybody that tries to leave and building settlements on the little land they have not taken yet is restrained? The fuck is this bullshit? Its a fucking genocide, that is what it is.


The Israeli government are fascist scum.

[Mihalik]

Oh, boo-hoo, cry me a river. Sorry, which country in its past hasn't had to overcome difficulties like that? Israel isn't the problem. The problem is everyone else in the region not being able to get their shit together. Israel is there to stay, end of story. Israel isn't causing any of the madness happening down there. Israel is acting very, VERY restrained outside of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Nah man, this is on the people in the Middle East. Not all of them, but enough of them to cause trouble.

I rarely disagree with you, but you are missing the point on Israel.

Ignoring the fact Israel isn't exactly as you put it "restrained" in its interactions with Iran, Syria or Lebanon (regular military or special operations incursions and hostile political maneuvering while playing up on the Sunni/Shia conflict and actively supporting the Saudi regime with intelligence, military training, cyber warfare etc)...ignoring all that...ya can't really say a country has "its shit together" while being a defacto apartheid state and while operating the worlds largest open air concentration camp/ghetto.

All that while ignoring the lowkey terrorism in which Orthodox Jews are targeting Reform Jewish women, and local Arab Christians for the sin of...existing, all the while the Israeli state mostly looks the other way to avoid upsetting its Orthodox community. Ignoring the forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jews etc.

I am 100% for the existence of a Jewish state within the framework of a two-state solution, and will not deny that Hamas carries a fair fucking share of the blame for the impossibility of it, but one wrong doesn't erase the other, and Israel in its current incarnation is a fucked up, whackado, dysotopian fucking shitshow that makes a fair share of other Middle Eastern countries look like a beacon of civility and sanity in comparison.

[skarnpire]

Those quotes you just put in, they are discussed in 2 of the 3 links I provided which explain how they are all taken out of context for the purpose of trying to frame Churchill as having views he never actually held. You are literally doing the very selective out of context quoting I'm talking about.

Churchill also had plans for federalizing Britain and France. Tho this is literally the first time I've heard about a British American Churchillian currency union. Sources? I have a vague suspicion it might be either a, wartime proposal b, a post war economic stabilization proposal, but I'd like to see sources.

But my point remains. You are taking Churchill out of context aka quote mining, to try to get him to fit your politics.

My favourite Churchill quote "In the future people will fabricate asinine statements unworthy of my intellect and viewpoints, and ascribe them to me for their own purpose". How wise was that man?

[ati87]

Oh, boo-hoo, cry me a river. Sorry, which country in its past hasn't had to overcome difficulties like that? Israel isn't the problem. The problem is everyone else in the region not being able to get their shit together. Israel is there to stay, end of story. Israel isn't causing any of the madness happening down there. Israel is acting very, VERY restrained outside of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Nah man, this is on the people in the Middle East. Not all of them, but enough of them to cause trouble.

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Germany is 80 years old. And we've been bombed to hell and back. So no, I won't say any ridiculous number. They have got to duke it out or find a solution. They keep causing trouble and looking to the West for help. It's time they learn to swim. I'll give them the latest interference by the US as an excuse, and if they want to go whinge at the door of the US, be my guest. But that's not what's going on now, is it... No, everyone and their fucking dog looks to Europe for solutions.

Well, we have solutions for these issues... but I'm not so sure they'd like being colonies again...

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To what is this related, exactly? Or are we just going to list everyone random article with "corona" in the headline now?

Oh come on, the destruction germany faced during WW2 is hardly a comparison to what happend in Africa, Asia, ME, South-America. Hell, my high-school history teacher once argued that from an economical perspective WW2 was actually beneficial to Europe because it forced Europe to rebuild infrastructure. You are comparing apples to oranges.

You can not compare 5 year of war vs, in some cases, centuries of oppression, mismanagement by puppet governments and corruption. It takes more time to clean up a mess then to create a mess, this was the lessons I learned when I saw Bush JR create a mess in just a few short years and Obama spending 8 years cleaning up.

[d00mGuArD]

Oh come on, the destruction germany faced during WW2 is hardly a comparison to what happend in Africa, Asia, ME, South-America. Hell, my high-school history teacher once argued that from an economical perspective WW2 was actually beneficial to Europe because it forced Europe to rebuild infrastructure. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Yeah I can clearly see all the amazing benefits in Syria, and anywhere else there is war and destruction.
They will be forced to rebuild infrastructure. Sure. Sounds great....
There is simply no logic to what you are saying. Go say that to a syrian and see if he will agree about this great benefit you describe.

[ati87]

Yeah I can clearly see all the amazing benefits in Syria, and anywhere else there is war and destruction.
They will be forced to rebuild infrastructure. Sure. Sounds great....
There is simply no logic to what you are saying. Go say that to a syrian and see if he will agree about this great benefit you describe.

Apples and oranges must be populair today.

[d00mGuArD]

Apples and oranges must be populair today.

There is simply no way to sell that war and destruction is beneficial.
It is not.
You can compare any war and destruction if you don't like my example. It will still not be beneficial.

[ati87]

There is simply no way to sell that war and destruction is beneficial.
It is not.
You can compare any war and destruction if you don't like my example. It will still not be beneficial.

Ok lets bite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E...omic_expansion
Read it was not that hard to find, there are multiply factors that allowed a long term economical growth that lasted 30 years.

But then again, your kind of missing the point of what I wrote previously. Germany recovered from WW2 is again not comparable to the damage caused by colonialism. WW2 as horrible as it was did not create did create an environment that allowed the economical growth to happen. Roads had to be rebuild and houses has to be rebuild, stuff that wouldn't have happend otherwise.

You don't need a war for this scenario, China for example has been fueling there economical growth like this for decades. Just google Chinese ghost cities, entire cities where build that ended up having a fraction of there intended population.

[FAILoZOFF]

The sooner that satanist/marxist PoS organization will bite the dust the better

[Slant]

Keeping an enitre country in a indoor prison, shooting anybody that tries to leave and building settlements on the little land they have not taken yet is restrained? The fuck is this bullshit? Its a fucking genocide, that is what it is.


The Israeli government are fascist scum.

Is not reading part of your strategy?

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I don't at all mean Israel. Iraq is a much better example.

Well, I'll give you that the shitshow in Iraq was caused by the US. But it is also a good example of everything wrong in the Middle East, cos they can't get their shit together still, it's almost been 20 years. When do you stop granting them the excuse? At this point in Germany's recovery, we've already had the economic miracle going strong, were part of the EEC and well on our way into a better future.

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I rarely disagree with you, but you are missing the point on Israel.

Ignoring the fact Israel isn't exactly as you put it "restrained" in its interactions with Iran, Syria or Lebanon (regular military or special operations incursions and hostile political maneuvering while playing up on the Sunni/Shia conflict and actively supporting the Saudi regime with intelligence, military training, cyber warfare etc)...ignoring all that...ya can't really say a country has "its shit together" while being a defacto apartheid state and while operating the worlds largest open air concentration camp/ghetto.

All that while ignoring the lowkey terrorism in which Orthodox Jews are targeting Reform Jewish women, and local Arab Christians for the sin of...existing, all the while the Israeli state mostly looks the other way to avoid upsetting its Orthodox community. Ignoring the forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jews etc.

I am 100% for the existence of a Jewish state within the framework of a two-state solution, and will not deny that Hamas carries a fair fucking share of the blame for the impossibility of it, but one wrong doesn't erase the other, and Israel in its current incarnation is a fucked up, whackado, dysotopian fucking shitshow that makes a fair share of other Middle Eastern countries look like a beacon of civility and sanity in comparison.

Oh, I agree with all of that. But I will say Israel isn't causing refugee streams. And they keep their territory under control. We can argue all day long about who did what and who's worse, but really my main focus is that everyone around Israel is very unstable. With the exception of Jordan, for some reason.

[Mihalik]

Oh, I agree with all of that. But I will say Israel isn't causing refugee streams. And they keep their territory under control. We can argue all day long about who did what and who's worse, but really my main focus is that everyone around Israel is very unstable. With the exception of Jordan, for some reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

It's just not as recent as the other things in the news these days.

Also, I would say that while Israel isn't to blame for the current various refuge crises, they are at least complicit.

But yeah, the region is a shitshow...albeit one could argue that Israel plays a significant role in the instability of his neighbors, stable and strong neighbors is not something Israel considers "a good thing" for its security, and they have a long and illustrious track record with nudging the right levers to keep those neighbors focused on their internal affairs.

[JohnBrown1917]

The sooner that satanist/marxist PoS organization will bite the dust the better

I wish it was marxist.

[ati87]

Is not reading part of your strategy?

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Well, I'll give you that the shitshow in Iraq was caused by the US. But it is also a good example of everything wrong in the Middle East, cos they can't get their shit together still, it's almost been 20 years. When do you stop granting them the excuse? At this point in Germany's recovery, we've already had the economic miracle going strong, were part of the EEC and well on our way into a better future.

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Oh, I agree with all of that. But I will say Israel isn't causing refugee streams. And they keep their territory under control. We can argue all day long about who did what and who's worse, but really my main focus is that everyone around Israel is very unstable. With the exception of Jordan, for some reason.

Maybe a better comparison between Germany and Iraq would be looking at how things went post WW1.
The Allies took a much more long term approach during WW2 when it came to Germany, actually focusing on rebuilding the country instead trying to profit of it (Iraq).

[Mihalik]

The sooner that satanist/marxist PoS organization will bite the dust the better

Off your meds again I see.

[nonameelf]

Maybe but in allot of cases the former colonial power never really left and still has allot of influence (ME countries often).
Furthermore what time frame do you think it's appropriate for what may be in certain cases centuries of ''mismanagement''. Some of these countries are technically 80 years old and some of there leaders took control and kept control because of outside influence.

Lets take Egypte as an example. The army was de facto in power in Egypte pre Arab spring and after the Arab spring they technically lost there power, however a few short years leader they are back in power and the democratically elected leader was imprisoned after a year.
The coup that happend in Egypte in 2013 could only happen if the military had enough outside support once they got into power, as to avoid total collapse of the Economy.

All 3 baltic states were oppressed and colonized for centuries and all 3 of them got independence and became developed nations in under 30 years. They still bear the scars of Russian colonization that cause some problems, but that didn't keep them back from becoming modern, developed nations.

Ireland likewise was a complete backwater of a nation when they finally broke free of British colonial rule after 800 years. They're now one of the highest development nations in the world. Pretty consistently up there just behind Nordic countries.

Yes, England, France, Turkey, and the US really fucked over the Middle East, but they've had nearly as long as Ireland had and 3 times as long as the Baltic states had to pull their shit together.

At a certain point it just starts to feel like we're letting them slide because we don't think they can do any better.