Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Makabreska]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

[omeomorfismo]

BFA did not change Sylvanas.

Protect her people? No. Protect her control over her people? Yes.

We've wanted to think differently for a long time, and brushed these little incidents under the rug, but the point of her Warbringers short is that she's been like this since the moment she was raised as a banshee.

"The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her Val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul." -Legion character summary

We finally found out. They were not. From what I've heard of Shadowlands, she's gone, and she took the val'kyr with her.

are you really using kolthira for something other than a (should be) rightful execution of a incompetent traitor that let tons of forsaken die for his friendship with an enemy?

[Ardenaso]

Alright, what war crimes are the Alliance guilty of, specifically?

Umm.... muh Taurajo, Stonespire, Dark Irons terrorizing Zandalari civilians, Void Elves sending Hordes inside Void Portals (worse than death) and diddling Horde corpses with void shits.

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Also to the OP: did you miss the part in WC3 where Sylvanas massacred two entire Troll villages who were just minding their own business, and then sending both the Stonemaul and the Alteraci to a suicide charge against Varimathras? Don't even get me started on the New Alliance

[Varodoc]

Umm.... muh Taurajo, Stonespire, Dark Irons terrorizing Zandalari civilians, Void Elves sending Hordes inside Void Portals (worse than death) and diddling Horde corpses with void shits.

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Also to the OP: did you miss the part in WC3 where Sylvanas massacred two entire Troll villages who were just minding their own business, and then sending both the Stonemaul and the Alteraci to a suicide charge against Varimathras? Don't even get me started on the New Alliance

Didn't Varimathras also say that Sylvanas was becoming more and more similar to the nathrezim (so a conniving asshole)?

[Mirishka]

Nope its an opinion, a dumb one in your eyes but not wrong in any means.

PSA: opinions can, in fact, be wrong.

[Ardenaso]

Didn't Varimathras also say that Sylvanas was becoming more and more similar to the nathrezim (so a conniving asshole)?

Yep. I forgot where I saw it but I think it's where they finished killing Detheroc and Sylvanas intended to betray the New Alliance at the end

[Varodoc]

Yep. I forgot where I saw it but I think it's where they finished killing Detheroc and Sylvanas intended to betray the New Alliance at the end

Yeah. It goes like this:

Varimathras: Come now, you don't intend to honor your deal with him, do you?
Sylvanas: Of course not. The humans are merely a means to an end.
Varimathras: You're starting to sound more and more like us, my lady.
Sylvanas: Cut it dreadlord.

And the dreadlords aren't exactly good people. So even in WC3 Sylvanas was going down a twisted and dark path.

[Ehrenpanzer]

She has been a villain for a long time, look you like her and that is up to you but open your eyes and stop trying to pretend she was something that she wasn't. She has been dark and villainous in WoW for a long time.

Dark? Yes. Ruthless? Yes. An "the ends justify the means" character? Yes. Full blown psychopathically evil? Not until the trainwreck that constitutes the "lore" of BFA

[Varodoc]

Dark? Yes. Ruthless? Yes. An "the ends justify the means" character? Yes. Full blown psychopathically evil? Not until the trainwreck that constitutes the "lore" of BFA

Full blown psychopathically evil? Yes.

- Ordered Varimathras to wipe out the "human infestation" in Hillsbrad (i.e. mostly refugees fleeing from the Scourge);
- Sadistically smiled when two people melted due to the blight;
- Vowed to exterminate the gilnean people;
- Blamed the fucking Lich King for creating "weak death knights" and vowed to correct his mistakes by "perfecting" Koltira.

[Aucald]

Yeah, because everything is either black or white.
No, both sides has been guilty of war-crimes.

Trying to strike up equivalence, false or otherwise, doesn't change that Sylvanas' hands might as well be dripping with blood and ash. The Alliance being guilty of crimes neither ameliorates nor absolves Sylvanas of her many evils.

[Eggroll]

Killing Warsong peons without warning, destruction of Stonard, massacre of Stonespire Tribe, burning Camp Taurajo, attack on civilian goblin ships during Cataclysm, Dalaran massacre, killing goblins in Silithus and destroying Horde's source of immortality. And I skip all things done by previous leaders of Alliance races.

Stop chopping up nelven ancient forests maybe. It's what invaders usually get because natives want to defend their territory which is totally legit in my book. Also, please don't compare the destruction of Theramore and Teldrassil with the destruction of some mudhuts, please.

[Kelathos]

Why were Forsaken allowed into the Horde?

Because they were the anti-scourge. Why / How? Sylvanas. She defied Arthas and forged a new path for "her" people. Against death. Sure, over the years some of the undead betrayed this heroism, and Sylvanas was still written as being edgy. But she was still a hero to me, she fought for the Horde. She won battles for the Horde. She rushed to the defense of Azeroth along side a sworn enemy to defeat the Legion. She became our Warchief... after a string of failed Warchiefs.

Sylvanas became my hope for a new chapter in the Horde. To finally honor and show us the promise of Thrall's Horde, the same path Sylvanas started as she defied Arthas all those years ago.

Blizzard killed both Sylvanas and my Horde the day she massacred the Night Elves after Legion. It is unforgivable writing to betray a character and a faction so deeply.

[Varodoc]

Why were Forsaken allowed into the Horde?

Because they were the anti-scourge. Why / How? Sylvanas. She defied Arthas and forged a new path for "her" people. Against death. Sure, over the years some of the undead betrayed this heroism, and Sylvanas was still written as being edgy. But she was still a hero to me, she fought for the Horde. She won battles for the Horde. She rushed to the defense of Azeroth along side a sworn enemy to defeat the Legion. She became our Warchief... after a string of failed Warchiefs.

Sylvanas became my hope for a new chapter in the Horde. To finally honor and show us the promise of Thrall's Horde, the same path Sylvanas started as she defied Arthas all those years ago.

Blizzard killed both Sylvanas and my Horde the day she massacred the Night Elves after Legion. It is unforgivable writing to betray a character and a faction so deeply.

They didn't assassinate anyone and if you thought she'd be any different than Garrosh you were not paying attention to the story. In fact, even Garrosh was appaled by the shit she was doing in Cataclysm and even pointed out how there was hardly any difference between her and the Lich King.

I really don't understand why you people were surprised by the Burning of Teldrassil. Were you by any chance sleeping when she nuked Gilneas, Hillsbrad, and Southshore, used Val'kyrs and mass-resurrection to conquer Andorhal, and turned the entire population of Ambermill? It was obvious that she'd abuse her powers as Warchief to continue her campaign of evil.

[Mehrunes]

BFA did not change Sylvanas.

Protect her people? No. Protect her control over her people? Yes.

We've wanted to think differently for a long time, and brushed these little incidents under the rug, but the point of her Warbringers short is that she's been like this since the moment she was raised as a banshee.

"The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her Val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul." -Legion character summary

We finally found out. They were not. From what I've heard of Shadowlands, she's gone, and she took the val'kyr with her.

Holy shit, is using Sylvanas punishing a traitor that cost Forsaken lives because of his incompetence really the best to got to support your argument here? Never mind that your entire argument is one giant false dichotomy. Sylvanas deciding that in the end her soul (and that is you merely assuming things, which is a particularly weak assumption given how Shadowlands cinematic showed that Sylvanas is thinking that what she's doing is "for the greater good") is more important to her than the Forsaken doesn't mean that prior to this she wasn't protecting the Forsaken. She went out of her way to achieve immortality for the entire race and not just herself and felt personally wounded when she learned some didn't want it.

Yes she is, she has been torturing prisoners, men, women, children, soldier, and innocent since vanilla.
she has also gone out of her way to get you the player to murder civilians, and then raise them into servitude (Fenris isle)
Cataclysm she was told
1. not to raise people (She did, to which she compared herself to the lich king)
2. not to use the plague (Which she did)
3. not to use the full powered plague (She was given a weaker version to only use for defense, and she ignored both parts of the order)
she tortured one of her own death knights for "acting neutral" which she did not like.
you say this is included in legion when she was "good", but she ditched her people to go make herself immortal.

These are all over a decade ago, this is not "Her suddenly being made a villian" she has always been a villain.

Can you please stop finally peddling this falsehood? Garrosh never forbade Sylvanas from raising more people. He was disgusted by it but that was it. And it was Garrosh that compared her to the Lich King, not her. Sylvanas only rolled with it. Which she did to annoy him. Which even Garrosh, a rather thickheaded individual, realized immediately and told her to watch her mouth in response. It's almost as if the tone Sylvanas said that in couldn't have been more mocking if she tried. The fact that you are still trying to push your argument of treating this seriously a decade after that questline hit live is flat out ridiculous.

And as your own post indicates, Sylvanas was told not to use the Blight at all only in specific place, elsewhere she was allowed to use a weaker strain (the part about her being able to do so only for defense is something you pulled out of the Nether though). I.e. in Gilneas. Where Garrosh wanted the Forsaken to die. That's why he gave that order and that's why he was pissed when Sylvanas took control of the Gilnean invasion and pulled her forces out of the meatgrinder at Greymane Wall that he threw the Forsaken into.

As for Koltira, she tortured him for making an unauthorized truce with the enemy he was explicitly ordered to destroy. Which, you know, is treason. Which bit the Forsaken in the ass when Alliance broke that truce and suddenly attacked the Forsaken.

Finally, Sylvanas didn't "ditch" anyone. She went on a different mission while leaving almost all available resources to the player so they could find the Aegis. And she did that to make all the Forsaken immortal, not just herself.

Garrosh didn't want the forsaken wiped out and if Gilneas could be taken then blight and plague would've fucked up all the resources gained from the land that could've been used by the whole as a whole. Also Koltira and Varian wouldn't blow up a peace of their kingdom to win a war or battle, that is not even in their moral compass in any form. Gen anger had nothing to do with that bitch blighting her territory she was going to do that anyway.

Except for the part where he did and Sylvanas saw it while she was going to the afterlife. The very fact that Garrosh forbade the use of the Blight while he allowed them to use an accepted strain elsewhere should have been enough of a hint. And not only can the Forsaken clean the Blight afterwards (as evidenced by the fact that they later moved in there and still controlled the zone as recently as Before the Storm), Garrosh didn't invade Gilneas for resources, he invaded it to have a harbor to stage more attacks from. And the Forsaken don't usually Blight the sea. And I'm not sure what BfA's siege of Lordaeron has to do with the Koltira situation.

2) was ordered not to use it cause it was evil, and you seem to forget of a thing called the wrathgate.
3) was ordered not to use it cause it was evil, and you seem to forget of a thing called the wrathgate.

But previously your point #3 was that she was allowed to use it. You're moving the goalposts. And the fact that she was allowed to use it outside of Gilneas showcases that it had nothing to do with it being evil. Garrosh was enslaving Molten Giants despite knowing it could cause another Cataclysm and was leaving young Magnataurs (that he kidnapped to blackmail their parents) to die to the Naga. And then wanted to empower the Orcs with the heart of a dead Old God. He didn't exactly have a moral compass.

No, varian would not have tortured him though
she was still the leader, and she ditches the horde, to go try to enslave an ally, and become immortal.

He still would have executed him. And Eyir wasn't our ally at that point in time. Even Odyn wasn't as he only revealed himself to us in the last quest of the zone.

[Isilrien]

Insisting something doesn't make it true.

[Mehrunes]

Yes cause we all know only alliance fan boys think torturing and experimenting on captured soldiers and civilians. Men, woman, and children is evil. Pfft. Alliance fanboys

What civilians and what children? The most we've ever got was a captured militia member, who at that point was no longer a civilian because of the whole militia bit. Who was very much not a child.

That seems to be quite the comprehensive list!

Now, would you be capable of doing the same for the Horde?

Except @matrix123mko's list isn't comprehensive even when it comes to Alliance's unjustified attacks on the Goblins alone (they seem not to like green short folks), let alone all of their things.

The alliance is atleast trying to do better. that Genn got of with a light scolding for stomheim is wrong ill grant you, how ever we never get this type of internal conflict because the spotlight is always on the fucking horde. if the alliance wins a decisive batttle we are told never shown. Da'zar a lor included. this also has the side effect that every alliance worth their salt always waits for the other shoe to drop when the devs decide to throw us a bone.

The horde Never tried to do better up untill recently when they revoked the Warchief title. you can notice that in the way NPC's speak. and i mean the soldiers and plebs in the ranks. Alliance NPC's almost always talk in a defensive or reactive manner. IE we are eather Defending or reacting to something.

The Alliance isn't trying anything. It pulls the act of instigating conflict with the Horde again and again and again and the story doesn't even address it. You don't get such internal conflict because the writers constantly brush everything questionable the Alliance has done under the carpet while continuing to write stories with the Alliance doing questionable things (instead of doing the logical choice in light of their desire to pretend the Alliance is morally flawless and not write them doing questionable things in the first place).

Just look at what you said. The Horde did "try to be better" by revoking the Warchief title. When has the Alliance done anything of the sorts? What protective measures has it taken to prevent another idiot like Genn from bending the shit out of Anduin's orders and bombarding Horde forces while hidden from the view in the clouds? What protective measures did it take to prevent Tyrande from acting out when she has already given Anduin more than enough reasons to suspect she will try to do so?

Horde NPC's allways talk Alliance dog this Alliance pigs that. im gonna go over there to that land that doesn't belong to me and take it splitting as mutch skulls to do so. The Horde is the Instigator every F'fing time.

The Dwarves alone crawled over to three different Horde zones because they felt entitled to dig for artifacts in there. One of those areas was right on the doorstep of the goddamn Horde capital city of Thunder Bluff. There are Alliance forces in Durotar as well. Meanwhile you have zero Horde presence in any Alliance starting zone. Chronicle v3 flat out states that Alliance declared the previous faction war, which they did because Varian hated the Orcs as per his declaration of war (and they attacked the Forsaken in Howling Fjords even before that). The Alliance restarted that war as Theramore's invasion of the Barrens happened prior to the Horde's invasion of Ashenvale. Alliance started the most recent conflict in Stormheim (the faction fighting continued throughout Legion and the factions needed a ceasefire to even make the Gathering happen even though it was happening on neutral territory).

The stale old tale of Alliance being this poor, oppressed and victimized reacting force has been nothing more than a myth since as early as Vanilla. And Alliance fans constantly complaining about that while they are deliberately ignoring Alliance's own story that shows how it's not the case is all sorts of weird. It's almost as if you were complaining just for the sake of complaining and deliberately ignoring everything that could get in the way of said complaining. Don't want to be the reactive force? All you need to do is to start paying attention. You don't even need to wait for a new expansion or petition Blizzard to write different stories. They already wrote the stories that you supposedly want.

[Powerogue]

are you really using kolthira for something other than a (should be) rightful execution of a incompetent traitor that let tons of forsaken die for his friendship with an enemy?

Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat; that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

BFA did not change Sylvanas.

[Mehrunes]

Didn't read the whole thread (because who does that?) but it just seems like you're just making excuses for Sylvanas. She's been a villain since Classic, but it really became prominent in Cata, when she killed the humans of Silverpine and forcefully turned them into forsaken. She's literally the Lich King 2.0, heck she even admitted that.

That "admission" was her trolling Garrosh. Which somehow even he was able to get.

Dalaran was not a massacre, Jaina just imprisoned the majority of the Sunreavers (for a very good reason) and killed the ones that resisted.

Jaina's reason was everything but good and the Purge of Dalaran was portrayed as rather messy in the later novels.

When Sargeras stabbed Silithus, the Alliance's response was to send Druids and Priestesses to investigate and possible heal the area, while the Horde only thought of how it could benefit them (surprise, surprise).

Which is Horde's prerogative as Alliance is not its boss and has zero authority to tell them how the Horde should react to giant swords.

- Vowed to exterminate the gilnean people;

She vowed to exterminate the Gilneans so much she led them flee with the Night Elves and then when she had GLF on its knees instead of wiping them out she merely forced their surrender. In other words, not really.

- Blamed the fucking Lich King for creating "weak death knights" and vowed to correct his mistakes by "perfecting" Koltira.

Even other Death Knights were not exactly favorable towards Koltira in their starting questline.

Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat, that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

BFA did not change Sylvanas.

Zelling was indeed a traitor and Sylvanas had an agent helping Baine and Zelling out, making a confession absolutely redundant. Stellar point you got here. And BfA alone couldn't stay consistent on something as crucial to a character as Sylvanas' motivations, so your claim that BfA did not change Sylvanas remains unconvincing.

[omeomorfismo]

Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat; that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

BFA did not change Sylvanas.

uhm yes? isnt like i hadnt reported him after that disgusting questline

[darkoms]

I am very amused when someone tries to justify Sylvanas, although even before the Cataclysm she was so vicious that the Arbiter sent her to the Maw. I mean, not even Revendreth, but in the Maw. And this was BEFORE the Cataclysm, before the Forsaken began to massively use blight, before she committed war for her own benefit, before she committed genocide.