[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[TexasRules]

There was once a saying in comics:

"the only people that stay dead are Uncle Ben, Jason Todd, and Bucky Barnes"

Doesn't really work anymore.

Never heard that saying, but I am only 47 years old. I looked it up and it seems to be on Wikipedia, so no idea who said that or who says that.

[Egomaniac]

Never heard that saying, but I am only 47 years old. I looked it up and it seems to be on Wikipedia, so no idea who said that or who says that.

Well, enough people say it that it made it into the wikipedia entry on comic book death.

The idea is that those deaths were crucial to the development of those specific heroes. The prevailing wisdom at the time was that resurrecting them would diminish that impact.

[Immitis]

Well, enough people say it that it made it into the wikipedia entry on comic book death.

The idea is that those deaths were crucial to the development of those specific heroes. The prevailing wisdom at the time was that resurrecting them would diminish that impact.

wasnt captain marvel included in that list of unressurectables for a good while?

[Egomaniac]

wasnt captain marvel included in that list of unressurectables for a good while?

He probably should have been if he wasn't....though I think he might have been brought back at one point...just as like a temporary thing and then he was gone again.

[SavoirFaire]

wasnt captain marvel included in that list of unressurectables for a good while?

I always remember it as uncle Ben , Jean grey, and Barry Allen. I think it shifts each decade.

I always took it more along the lines of impactful deaths as a whole, not just to characters but to the way comics were. In fact I think I’ve heard Gwen Stacey thrown in the mix as well, but I’m old. Poor ol Uncle Ben, he’s the one constant.

[Shadowferal]

Jean Grey, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Captain Marvel...death used to be a done deal.
Hell, I recall one comic shop owner saying DC was taking a risk killing off Kara (Supergirl) and Barry (Flash) in the Crisis of Infinite Earths. (a risk that paid off then)
Comics were a serious business then. (Jim Shooter era was the best ever)

Nowadays death has zero impact to a story.

[Trassk]

Jean Grey, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Captain Marvel...death used to be a done deal.
Hell, I recall one comic shop owner saying DC was taking a risk killing off Kara (Supergirl) and Barry (Flash) in the Crisis of Infinite Earths. (a risk that paid off then)
Comics were a serious business then. (Jim Shooter era was the best ever)

Nowadays death has zero impact to a story.

Few years ago, when wolverine died, it had some meaning. With the popularity of hugh jackman in the x-men movies, it also had wolverine appearing in multiple comic, just about every book associated with mutants, spiderman books, avengers books, and people started to say it was over saturating and people wanted a break from wolverine.
So they killed him, encased in adamantium, and only focused on a few titles on the fallout with other characters like his children, the other x-men, his rivals. It was obvious he would be back one day, but it allowed the oversatutation to cease .

His return to life by way of the infinity stones seemed quite underplayed, like the characters were just 'oh your back, cool' kinda way. It gave his resurrection less of an impact and retroactively made his death seem even more meaningless.

And now in current x-men, their pulling some shit where they can kill off major characters, use clone bullshit (remember when clones had their own identity like Ben Reilly or magnetos clone joseph) and count it as 'bringing then back to life'. As far as I'm concerned the characters running around now that look like wolverine and nightcrawler are just imposters wearing their skin.

If you take it seriously that it's still wolverine and nightcrawler or whatever other character they did this with, then it makes the concept of death meaningless. But if you don't take it serious, it means your seeing clones of beloved comic characters running around claiming to be the real thing, which is just messed up.

[Zandalariprelate]

snip

I got pains in my back for just watching this

Please don't quote 5 giant images for such a short message.

[TexasRules]

Few years ago, when wolverine died, it had some meaning. With the popularity of hugh jackman in the x-men movies, it also had wolverine appearing in multiple comic, just about every book associated with mutants, spiderman books, avengers books, and people started to say it was over saturating and people wanted a break from wolverine.
So they killed him, encased in adamantium, and only focused on a few titles on the fallout with other characters like his children, the other x-men, his rivals. It was obvious he would be back one day, but it allowed the oversatutation to cease .

His return to life by way of the infinity stones seemed quite underplayed, like the characters were just 'oh your back, cool' kinda way. It gave his resurrection less of an impact and retroactively made his death seem even more meaningless.

And now in current x-men, their pulling some shit where they can kill off major characters, use clone bullshit (remember when clones had their own identity like Ben Reilly or magnetos clone joseph) and count it as 'bringing then back to life'. As far as I'm concerned the characters running around now that look like wolverine and nightcrawler are just imposters wearing their skin.

If you take it seriously that it's still wolverine and nightcrawler or whatever other character they did this with, then it makes the concept of death meaningless. But if you don't take it serious, it means your seeing clones of beloved comic characters running around claiming to be the real thing, which is just messed up.

Wolverine being killed off was pure business. Marvel wanted the rights back. That is why ff was cancelled also. I do not fault them as it led to us getting the movie Logan. I just don't see the next crop of movies being as engaging. RDJ was Tony Stark, he made the marvel universe. It can be argued that the avengers would not have happened if he had not knocked it out in the first movie. I do not really see any movie that would move the needle for me. Black Widow backstory movie? Eternals? Shang Chi? Female Thor, hell I am not even really interested in guardians of the big lebowski 3. I am more interested in the tv stuff , especially if done correctly Moon Knight. And I want the Crazy Moon Knight who talks to Bushwacker's face. Or Mr Knight.

I have another question, how do you think the cinemas not being open as much is going to affect the future of the Marvel franchise in particular? They delayed Black Widow and I think it will gross low, mainly because there really is no excitement behind it. It's filler back story so you know she is in no real danger.

[Trassk]

Wolverine being killed off was pure business. Marvel wanted the rights back. That is why ff was cancelled also. I do not fault them as it led to us getting the movie Logan. I just don't see the next crop of movies being as engaging. RDJ was Tony Stark, he made the marvel universe. It can be argued that the avengers would not have happened if he had not knocked it out in the first movie. I do not really see any movie that would move the needle for me. Black Widow backstory movie? Eternals? Shang Chi? Female Thor, hell I am not even really interested in guardians of the big lebowski 3. I am more interested in the tv stuff , especially if done correctly Moon Knight. And I want the Crazy Moon Knight who talks to Bushwacker's face. Or Mr Knight.

I have another question, how do you think the cinemas not being open as much is going to affect the future of the Marvel franchise in particular? They delayed Black Widow and I think it will gross low, mainly because there really is no excitement behind it. It's filler back story so you know she is in no real danger.

Fact is, marvel has blown it's load on everything big that can be made into movies. The most popular characters have had their stories told, Iron man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Spiderman. And even the movies owned by fox have told the best stories of the x-men, wolverine at the helm, the phoenix story, magneto, apocalypse, days of future past, Logan.
The marvel movie franchise has used up it's best stories, and ended the roles of popular characters, and just because it owns the rights to X-Men again doesn't mean anything, as they won't be able to retell the X-Men franchise everyone knows and loves now.
And whatever soy drinking drone will tell you, no, legacy characters will not ever replace the original characters, spider-gwen will never be as popular as Spiderman, iron-heart (/vomit) will never be as popular as iron man, and totally Asian Hulk will never be as popular as the real Hulk, it's just a matter of fact.

[Stormcall]

spider-gwen will never be as popular as Spiderman, iron-heart (/vomit) will never be as popular as iron man, and totally Asian Hulk will never be as popular as the real Hulk, it's just a matter of fact.

I'm not sure, I think the new Ms. Marvel actually did surpass the old Ms(now Captain) Marvel in popularity though you're right on the others. But then again, there's a lot of people who will never be as popular as Banner Hulk, or Spider-man, or Iron Man, legacy or not. Moon Knight will never be as popular as those characters either. Neither will Hercules. Or Morbius. Or Hawkeye. Or Captain Britain. Or Armor. Or lots of others. I'm not knocking those characters, I love Moon Knight. Hercules has had some great stuff. But they're not gonna be as popular as those characters either.

[Trassk]

I'm not sure, I think the new Ms. Marvel actually did surpass the old Ms(now Captain) Marvel in popularity though you're right on the others. But then again, there's a lot of people who will never be as popular as Banner Hulk, or Spider-man, or Iron Man, legacy or not. Moon Knight will never be as popular as those characters either. Neither will Hercules. Or Morbius. Or Hawkeye. Or Captain Britain. Or Armor. Or lots of others. I'm not knocking those characters, I love Moon Knight. Hercules has had some great stuff. But they're not gonna be as popular as those characters either.

I mean those ones you mentioned like moonknight, Hercules, Morbius, Captain British, they are their own thing, not legacy characters designed to replace original ones, their just not as popular or well known as front page heroes like Hulk and iron man. I do even have a marvel Hercules statue since I like his character in the comics, but I dunno if I'd see him being as popular as thor.. especially in today's market..

[Kiri]

And whatever soy drinking drone will tell you, no, legacy characters will not ever replace the original characters, spider-gwen will never be as popular as Spiderman, iron-heart (/vomit) will never be as popular as iron man, and totally Asian Hulk will never be as popular as the real Hulk, it's just a matter of fact.

I'd contest that. It depends on what you do with those legacy characters and how you use them. Marvel is just somewhat bad at it, but if you look over to DC, you can see a lot of very successful legacy characters, some even more 'ethnic' for lack of a better word, like Jaime Reyes. Blue Beetle, Flash, the Atom, Green Lantern, all characters where the legacy clearly surpassed the original. They have in the public conscious replaced their originals. That's why I used their hero names here, since most people who hear that instantly envision the legacy characters, not the originals.
There are probably a lot of factors as to why it doesn't really work for Marvel. But it's not just the fact that they are legacy characters. It's how they are used and written.

[Orby]

I mean those ones you mentioned like moonknight, Hercules, Morbius, Captain British, they are their own thing, not legacy characters designed to replace original ones, their just not as popular or well known as front page heroes like Hulk and iron man. I do even have a marvel Hercules statue since I like his character in the comics, but I dunno if I'd see him being as popular as thor.. especially in today's market..

Unpopular opinion but Hercules > Thor.

Also Hercules had a great run in the 2000.

[Immitis]

I'm not sure, I think the new Ms. Marvel actually did surpass the old Ms(now Captain) Marvel in popularity though you're right on the others. But then again, there's a lot of people who will never be as popular as Banner Hulk, or Spider-man, or Iron Man, legacy or not. Moon Knight will never be as popular as those characters either. Neither will Hercules. Or Morbius. Or Hawkeye. Or Captain Britain. Or Armor. Or lots of others. I'm not knocking those characters, I love Moon Knight. Hercules has had some great stuff. But they're not gonna be as popular as those characters either.

guardians kind of throws that whole statement out of wack. i'm one of the few people who knew who they were pre-movie and i can say moon knight is about as well known to the general public as they are. i talk to people all the time who LOVE the mcu and rave about it all the time and i bring up moon knight and theyre like who?

it all depends on how well they market his show, how well they write him, and how big of a role he will be in his first movie (all of the disney+ characters will show up in the movies unlike aos and the netflixverse with wandavision leading directly into the plotline of doctor strange 2)

marvel has become a brand like pixar, they can sell almost anything off name alone.

the comics at this point are literally just a churning melting pot of ideas for them

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as they won't be able to retell the X-Men franchise everyone knows and loves now.

deadpool 3 (or at least a ryan reynolds helmed mcu r rated deadpool movie) is still happening.

what character aside from hugh jackman is so known and loved? even though i personally have always disliked his wolverine aside from logan. hes too tall, hes too lean and he just doesnt really play the character well either. logan is the only movie he ever really felt like wolverine

the x-men movies have never even had them in their traditional outfits and almost every movie theyve made have been lambasted or met with mixed praise outside of a small handful of them.

if anything marvel has the same problem spider-man faced. all of the recent x-men movies have been fucking awful they have to distance themselves from that version of them, but considering how spider-man panned out id say theyre in good hands.

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I'd contest that. It depends on what you do with those legacy characters and how you use them. Marvel is just somewhat bad at it, but if you look over to DC, you can see a lot of very successful legacy characters, some even more 'ethnic' for lack of a better word, like Jaime Reyes. Blue Beetle, Flash, the Atom, Green Lantern, all characters where the legacy clearly surpassed the original. They have in the public conscious replaced their originals. That's why I used their hero names here, since most people who hear that instantly envision the legacy characters, not the originals.
There are probably a lot of factors as to why it doesn't really work for Marvel. But it's not just the fact that they are legacy characters. It's how they are used and written.

I was thinking perhaps the reason might be because dc has a much stronger rogues gallery than marvel heroes do. the only marvel character imo that has a rogues gallery as strong is spider-man.

i can think of many many dc villains for multiple different heroes but when it comes to marvel after spider-man very few stand out to me.

[Stormcall]

I mean those ones you mentioned like moonknight, Hercules, Morbius, Captain British, they are their own thing, not legacy characters designed to replace original ones, their just not as popular or well known as front page heroes like Hulk and iron man.

That was the point-not many characters are going to surpass those characters in popularity, it has nothing to do with legacy characters, it has to do with them being iconic characters who basically built the company and have literal decades of material and fans behind them. Very few characters will be as popular as them, a character being a "legacy" characters has nothing to do with that.

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guardians kind of throws that whole statement out of wack..

No it doesn't, cause if Marvel does a Spider-Gwen or Amadeus Cho movie those characters could very well surpass Spider-man and Banner Hulk in popularity too if they movies went over well. We're not talking about that, we're talking about rather them being a legacy character is why they're not currently as popular as the originals.

[Trassk]

Unpopular opinion but Hercules > Thor.

Also Hercules had a great run in the 2000.

Dam yeah, loved hercules in the 00s, such a fun and misused character

[Gallahadd]

Unpopular opinion but Hercules > Thor.

Also Hercules had a great run in the 2000.

Aaron Thor > Herc > Pre Aaron Thor.

Herc's big problem is that he hasn't had a decent run since Chaos War. I'm hoping that his current work with the GoTG will fix that, though.

[Immitis]

That was the point-not many characters are going to surpass those characters in popularity, it has nothing to do with legacy characters, it has to do with them being iconic characters who basically built the company and have literal decades of material and fans behind them. Very few characters will be as popular as them, a character being a "legacy" characters has nothing to do with that.

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No it doesn't, cause if Marvel does a Spider-Gwen or Amadeus Cho movie those characters could very well surpass Spider-man and Banner Hulk in popularity too if they movies went over well. We're not talking about that, we're talking about rather them being a legacy character is why they're not currently as popular as the originals.

sorry i think i misunderstood what you were saying in the first post.

i thought you were trying to say characters like moon knight will never make for popular movies or have a resurgence in popularity if disney adapts them.

[JDL49]

I am mystified by those of you who think you can have a Wolverine appear as close to comic accurate as possible and still sell tickets. It simply won't fly in real life. He is fugly. It needs to be left in the comics along with the female stripper costumes and the yellow spandex. Remember the first impression of a character in a movie is telling. 99% of the movie audience has never seen the comic versions of these characters and bring no nostalgia into the theater with them. Given time like in a TV series you might sell it but not in a movie barring an oscar worthy performance.