Sylvanas Character Assassination

[FelPlague]

It's not shitty writing for a character to have simple motivations, no (as long as they make sense in context, ofc).

It's shitty writing to have a third party with no insight express those motives instead of the actual character, or someone close to them, just because you can't think of a better way to communicate them to the player. You quoted Delaryn as if her line was 100% positive proof of what Sylvanas is after, when if the writing is any good, it shouldn't be. That line only tells us what Delaryn thinks Sylvanas is after.

I mean sylvanas didnt deny it, she agreed with it.
and she has proven since then.
idk what world you live in, but its good writing that a villian does not just spout to the heavens their entire plan and motives.
but we can see from what they do, and what others think of her, what her motive is.
we know her motive is to end all life, cause that is what we have seen her do, and what others have guessed, and her confirming those things.

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she is immortal though.

she should just stop being a Warbringer so that she wouldn't be in any danger of being killed.

Sorry, invincible, not immortal, my mistake.
she wants to be unkillable, which requires no one to kill her, and an army of valkyr.

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I never said those things, now you're reaching.

Yes cause we all know only alliance fan boys think torturing and experimenting on captured soldiers and civilians. Men, woman, and children is evil. Pfft. Alliance fanboys
Me? I go out to my local supermarket and buy atleast 5 torture in a can. Dying mother and her childhood dog flavour!

Yeah, because everything is either black or white.
No, both sides has been guilty of war-crimes.

Yes, you did.

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We already know what her motives are. We've known that since Three Sisters comic:

yeah this too, i forgot about this.

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We know nothing about what that actually means. We have a whole expansion about Death, surely a lot more is to be revealed there, don't you think? I mean, if the overarching narrative of the expansion is that Sylvanas simply wants to rule that place and throws *insert new henchmen here* at everyone else until we kill her in a raid, it sounds pretty boring and not worth all the secrecy.

"In death they will all serve me" as in "if i kill everyone, they will all be forced to follow me"
that is literally what it actually means.

[Coconut]

We have direct word of Afrasiabi that confirms she ordered it. Already in the Chronicles it's mentioned how many suspected she played a part in it.

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here.

I am stepping out of the narrative to discuss creative intent and player perception at different times in Warcraft history, while you are doubling down on the current narrative and trying to make it work retroactively. Afrasiabi "confirming" it (I thought he went back on it, but won't die on this hill) doesn't mean it's not a retcon. And keep in mind there's a huge difference between her ordering the creation of the Blight and a surprise attack on Arthas at the Wrathgate, possibly unbeknownst to the Horde (which I don't think anyone is contesting?), and her ordering a betrayal on the Alliance and Horde forces there.

I get that you have a huge Sylvanas hate boner right now and you're... stroking it while it's hot, but you might want to consider that a retcon can just as easily turn against you. If they give Sylvanas a Kerrigan story and claim that was the plan all along and you misread the signs, will you be ready to accept it? Asking hypothetically.

The act aligns perfectly with her motivations. She almost succeeded in killing Arthas. As you said, she was planning to commit suicide anyway after Arthas died. So why would she care if the Wrathgate broke the truce between the two factions? She'd already be dead by that point, because Arthas would've been killed by the blight (and he indeed came very close to death).

She specifically didn't because barrels of Blight were wasted on friendly troops, and afterwards there was nobody to take advantage of Arthas's weakness. She literally had nothing to gain from the Wrathgate going the way it did.

Lmao, Garithos is as likeable as Hitler meanwhile Sylvanas is sympathetic? Lol? Unlike Sylvanas, Garithos never nuked several cities and committed genocide. You don't like Garithos because he was a racist, meanwhile you like Sylvanas who wants to commit literal mundicide. Okay.

I am speaking of my experience playing through Warcraft III (multiple times over) when I was a teen, and the way it informed my attitude towards Sylvanas through most of WoW. Again, you are reducing everything to the latest narrative... though I don't see how Sylvanas's recent atrocities could possibly whitewash Garithos.

Besides, she didn't kill him for any noble purpose anyway. She didn't give a shit about his racism. She made a deal with him and she broke it because she's powerhungry and doesn't want to share power with anyone. That's why Varimathras remarked how she was becoming more and more like a dreadlord. Because she was using people as mere tools and had no problem throwing them away after they had outlived their usefulness. And again, tell the full story. Yes, Garithos was a racist asshole, but he still reconquered Dalaran and was offering shelter to many refugees fleeing from the Scourge.

He was using her too and was going to break their deal just as easily, he was just too stupid and too arrogant to see it turned against him.

The irony in that story line was that he was about to genocide the Blood Elves for accepting help from the Naga, but he had no problem using a Banshee and her Undead army to fight for him. He was a racist, dimwitted hypocrite, hated even by the dwarven troops he didn't try to execute. Blizzard is turning every other Horde character into a villain, but would never make another Alliance character like this... which is ironic, because judging by this forum and how many ally players direct hatred and discrimination at their own faction (they hate and mock Gnomes and Mechagnomes, hate Kul'Tirans because they are fat, hate pretty much everything they get, take everything for granted and whine all the time), you'd think they'd feel right at home among some dumb xenophobic shitheads.

[Varodoc]

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here.

I am stepping out of the narrative to discuss creative intent and player perception at different times in Warcraft history, while you are doubling down on the current narrative and trying to make it work retroactively. Afrasiabi "confirming" it (I thought he went back on it, but won't die on this hill) doesn't mean it's not a retcon. And keep in mind there's a huge difference between her ordering the creation of the Blight and a surprise attack on Arthas at the Wrathgate, possibly unbeknownst to the Horde (which I don't think anyone is contesting?), and her ordering a betrayal on the Alliance and Horde forces there.

I get that you have a huge Sylvanas hate boner right now and you're... stroking it while it's hot, but you might want to consider that a retcon can just as easily turn against you. If they give Sylvanas a Kerrigan story and claim that was the plan all along and you misread the signs, will you be ready to accept it? Asking hypothetically.



She specifically didn't because barrels of Blight were wasted on friendly troops, and afterwards there was nobody to take advantage of Arthas's weakness. She literally had nothing to gain from the Wrathgate going the way it did.



I am speaking of my experience playing through Warcraft III (multiple times over) when I was a teen, and the way it informed my attitude towards Sylvanas through most of WoW. Again, you are reducing everything to the latest narrative... though I don't see how Sylvanas's recent atrocities could possibly whitewash Garithos.



He was using her too and was going to break their deal just as easily, he was just too stupid and too arrogant to see it turned against him.

The irony in that story line was that he was about to genocide the Blood Elves for accepting help from the Naga, but he had no problem using a Banshee and her Undead army to fight for him. He was a racist, dimwitted hypocrite, hated even by the dwarven troops he didn't try to execute. Blizzard is turning every other Horde character into a villain, but would never make another Alliance character like this... which is ironic, because judging by this forum and how many ally players direct hatred and discrimination at their own faction (they hate and mock Gnomes and Mechagnomes, hate Kul'Tirans because they are fat, hate pretty much everything they get, take everything for granted and whine all the time), you'd think they'd feel right at home among some dumb xenophobic shitheads.

It's not that I hate Sylvanas, it's that I paid attention to the story and knew this was the direction she was heading towards since Classic. Hence why it's not character assassination at all. And you keep insisting that she became evil in BfA, when she's been doing evil things for 15 years.

They won't redeem her. She's not like Kerrigan. She does not care about atoning for her actions. And she chose to commit those atrocities, she was not mind-controlled by anyone. It's clear that they are not setting up a redemption arc like the one Kerrigan got. She might have a change of heart at the end and realize all the evil she's done (though it'd be hard to write that because she's so twisted), but she won't have a happy ending like Kerrigan. And she doesn't deserve one.

It didn't matter if the blight hit Alliance and Horde troops too. Arthas would have died if he didn't quickly retreat into Angrathar. It was a gamble which almost paid off. And Sylvanas had no reason to care about the consequences because she planned to commit suicide anyway after Arthas died.

Also no, Garithos was not using Sylvanas. It was in his right to demand her and her forces to leave Lordaeron, since that was their deal.

Also, good job for calling Alliance players "dumb, xenophobic shitheads".

[DemonHunter18]

Sorry, invincible, not immortal, my mistake.
she wants to be unkillable, which requires no one to kill her, and an army of valkyr.

she should become a demon then.

she would be unkillable on Azeroth.

[Coconut]

"In death they will all serve me" as in "if i kill everyone, they will all be forced to follow me"
that is literally what it actually means.

She was never able to exercise full control over the Undead, as evidenced even in the current story. Let alone people in the Shadowlands.

And again, this "kill all things" narrative (as opposed to wanting more forsaken who are loyal and think like her) is only as recent as BFA, and I reserve the right to criticize it as a choice. A villain who "wants to kill everything" and "rule everything" is terribly over the top and bland no matter how you spin it, and trying to hide it behind a million fake mirrors isn't gonna make this cliche any better.

[Schattenlied]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Yeah, she is.

She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

Villians are generally characterized by extremely selfish actions taken in spite of consequences to anyone else. She is doing exactly that.

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself.

No, only herself... She's never had qualms about sacrificing her people to save her own skin... The only thing Cataclysm showed is she isn't willing to sacrifice them to serve anyone but herself (her defiance of Garrosh's orders to not use the Blight).

She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil

She was an elf, so... She'd still be alive right now if he didn't kill her and raise her into undeath, and would presumably continue to live for thousands more years... He has nothing to do with her choices post release from his control.

There are plenty of free undead who aren't selfish assholes like Sylvanas is, so this is no excuse.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

No it's not, she's always been a bad guy, you just weren't paying attention. She ordered the creation of the Blight all the way back in vanilla, with the intent on using it on "the rest of Azeroth", "plaguing an entire world" (direct quotes from related quests)

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

No, for the above reasons. You just don't know the lore.

[Varodoc]

She was never able to exercise full control over the Undead, as evidenced even in the current story. Let alone people in the Shadowlands.

And again, this "kill all things" narrative (as opposed to wanting more forsaken who are loyal and think like her) is only as recent as BFA, and I reserve the right to criticize it as a choice. A villain who "wants to kill everything" and "rule everything" is terribly over the top and bland no matter how you spin it, and trying to hide it behind a million fake mirrors isn't gonna make this cliche any better.

Not really. Already in Classic it was hinted that the Forsaken planned to unleash the plague on the living. In Arthas novel, Sylvansa was elated that the blight worked on both the living and the undead.

Also not really, many characters who seek world domination are very interesting villain. Sauron, Palpatine, Arthas, they're all interesting villains despite having generic motivations.

[BaumanKing]

Yes she is, she has been torturing prisoners, men, women, children, soldier, and innocent since vanilla.

So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.

[Schattenlied]

And again, this "kill all things" narrative (as opposed to wanting more forsaken who are loyal and think like her) is only as recent as BFA

Her ordering the creation of a new plague intended to be used on the rest of Azeroth all the way back in vanilla says otherwise.

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So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.

I sure as fuck still consider him a villain.

[Darknessvamp]

Not really. Sylvanas is just as much of a cartoony villain.

I mean yeah when you consider her "real" reasoning for the Burning, the joke of the Loyalists/Rebellion Story with Saurfang, the usage of Jaina's Brother and the end of the War Campaign which all comes from BfA then she comes off as pretty comical. Though getting killed in Silverpine for thinking someone hating Genn more than her made them a trustworthy ally was pretty funny.

Where did Sylvanas show remorse for any of her actions before BfA?

During TBC if you did the Locket quest she would pretend that it was worthless to her and deny what it represents whilst you're present to save face as the Banshee Queen then when you're "absent" she sings the Lament of the Highborne and recovers it from where she threw away as she regrets what she is now. Also I recall there being some remorse whilst speaking to her Sister in War Crimes as a result of being undead and leader of the Forsaken.

Umm, have you been living under a rock? Attraction can affect the way people look at someone

Or maybe those girls pining over the Boston Marathon Bomber saying he is too cute to be guilty just saw a light in him that the rest of us didn't?

Yes no doubt attraction can affect an individual's impression of another but his argument was literally that "No one defends Ashvane because she isn't hot" whilst purposely ignoring that all she has done is be indefensible. Heck it's like Azshara, there are some who find her hot for some reason, especially now that she is an Octopus thing, yet people still call her the monster that she is for all she's done and rarely defend her (unless they're a Elf enthusiast).

[Varodoc]

I mean yeah when you consider her "real" reasoning for the Burning, the joke of the Loyalists/Rebellion Story with Saurfang, the usage of Jaina's Brother and the end of the War Campaign which all comes from BfA then she comes off as pretty comical. Though getting killed in Silverpine for thinking someone hating Genn more than her made them a trustworthy ally was pretty funny.



During TBC if you did the Locket quest she would pretend that it was worthless to her and deny what it represents whilst you're present to save face as the Banshee Queen then when you're "absent" she sings the Lament of the Highborne and recovers it from where she threw away as she regrets what she is now. Also I recall there being some remorse whilst speaking to her Sister in War Crimes as a result of being undead and leader of the Forsaken.



Yes no doubt attraction can affect an individual's impression of another but his argument was literally that "No one defends Ashvane because she isn't hot" whilst purposely ignoring that all she has done is be indefensible. Heck it's like Azshara, there are some who find her hot for some reason, especially now that she is an Octopus thing, yet people still call her the monster that she is for all she's done and rarely defend her (unless they're a Elf enthusiast).

That wasn't a moment of remorse. She felt nostalgic about a more happier period of her life. But she didn't show any remorse for her actions as an undead.

War Crimes, so you mean the novel where Sylvanas wanted to kill Vereesa and her children so that they could be together? And who went on a rampage when she understandably refused, and vowed to never again feel love?

[FelPlague]

she should become a demon then.

she would be unkillable on Azeroth.

true but that aint easy, she would be sent to the nether for a LONG time. but i think her worry is, then people owuld track her down and kill her there.

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So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.

he didnt though.
if you could show me him torturing women children and innocent sure.
but atleast he had a reason, he was near defeatign the legion till we fucked it.
sylvanas only did it to well cause she wanted to.

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She was never able to exercise full control over the Undead, as evidenced even in the current story. Let alone people in the Shadowlands.

And again, this "kill all things" narrative (as opposed to wanting more forsaken who are loyal and think like her) is only as recent as BFA, and I reserve the right to criticize it as a choice. A villain who "wants to kill everything" and "rule everything" is terribly over the top and bland no matter how you spin it, and trying to hide it behind a million fake mirrors isn't gonna make this cliche any better.

fenris isle, you are wrong.

"Kill all things and raise them into undeath" and "kill most things and raise them into undeath" yes totally different. its not like we have seen her hunting down civilians in cataclysm, having you murder them, and then raise them into undeath to serve her, no totally not. again fenris isle

a villian who wants to rule evereything and wants to kill everything is over the top and bland? alright? and so is real life sometimes.

[Coconut]

It's not that I hate Sylvanas, it's that I paid attention to the story and knew this was the direction she was heading towards since Classic. Hence why it's not character assassination at all. And you keep insisting that she became evil in BfA, when she's been doing evil things for 15 years.

They won't redeem her. She's not like Kerrigan. She does not care about atoning for her actions. And she chose to commit those atrocities, she was not mind-controlled by anyone. It's clear that they are not setting up a redemption arc like the one Kerrigan got.

It didn't matter if the blight hit Alliance and Horde troops too. Arthas would have died if he didn't quickly retreat into Angrathar. It was a gamble which almost paid off. And Sylvanas had no reason to care about the consequences because she planned to commit suicide anyway after Arthas died.

Also no, Garithos was not using Sylvanas. It was in his right to demand her and her forces to leave Lordaeron, since that was their deal.

Also, good job for calling Alliance players "dumb, xenophobic shitheads".

Just admit that you are ok with an awful story as long as you get what you want in the end. ) The rest is just pedantry. I will admit myself that I wanted Sylvanas to become more integrated in the Horde throughout Legion and BFA, since we are sorely lacking first tier characters and our heroes turning into villains has gotten bloody old - and I don't appreciate the fact that Blizzard trolled us with it before going in the opposite direction.

And I stand by calling Alliance players "dumb, xenophobic shitheads".

It's funny how unaware they are of their own biases when they bring up the Forsaken's mistreatment of people in Hillsbrad and Gilneas. If you go in Alliance starting zones, you'll find plenty of similar quests. The Dwarves in Kharanos send you to cull the Frostmane trolls (a people that used to live in Dun Morogh before the dwarves took their land away from them), and local brewer even wants you to steal baskets of weeds from them, instead of growing them his own damn self. And they fight these stone age trolls with steam tanks, one of which is called "Trollplough".

In Goldshire, there are not one, but two people sending you to steal stuff from kobolds. What is a kobold's life worth for a human of Stormwind? A candle, or a bit of gold dust. Meanwhile, the gnolls are being hunted down because they are "brutish creatures, who have no honest business being on our lands". They are deemed an "infestation", and a bounty is put on them as soon as they are spotted. Stormwind doesn't even treat its own people well - a guard gives you a quest to kill a guy for stealing a pig, and you have to fight him and loot his head off his corpse in front of a couple children (presumable his own), and the destitute refugees crowding in Westfall are treated with disgust by the guards.

These things don't get noticed when the quest mobs are coded as ugly, poor, stupid or savage, or when they did the slightest thing wrong. It's business as usual, even though they're all sentient, maybe a bit slow (which in our world would demand compassion). But when the quest mobs are humans, with a West-coded culture no less, why, whatever faction kills them are the worst villains in WoW!

Infracted.

[DemonHunter18]

true but that aint easy, she would be sent to the nether for a LONG time. but i think her worry is, then people owuld track her down and kill her there.

true.

she would constantly regenerate because they would always kill her LFMAO

he didnt though.
if you could show me him torturing women children and innocent sure.
but atleast he had a reason, he was near defeatign the legion till we fucked it.
sylvanas only did it to well cause she wanted to.

technically Illidan killed thousands of innocents.

[BaumanKing]

he didnt though.
if you could show me him torturing women children and innocent sure.
but atleast he had a reason, he was near defeatign the legion till we fucked it.
sylvanas only did it to well cause she wanted to.

And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.

[Varodoc]

Just admit that you are ok with an awful story as long as you get what you want in the end. ) The rest is just pedantry. I will admit myself that I wanted Sylvanas to become more integrated in the Horde throughout Legion and BFA, since we are sorely lacking first tier characters and our heroes turning into villains has gotten bloody old - and I don't appreciate the fact that Blizzard trolled us with it before going in the opposite direction.

And I stand by calling Alliance players "dumb, xenophobic shitheads".

It's funny how unaware they are of their own biases when they bring up the Forsaken's mistreatment of people in Hillsbrad and Gilneas. If you go in Alliance starting zones, you'll find plenty of similar quests. The Dwarves in Kharanos send you to cull the Frostmane trolls (a people that used to live in Dun Morogh before the dwarves took their land away from them), and local brewer even wants you to steal baskets of weeds from them, instead of growing them his own damn self. And they fight these stone age trolls with steam tanks, one of which is called "Trollplough".

In Goldshire, there are not one, but two people sending you to steal stuff from kobolds. What is a kobold's life worth for a human of Stormwind? A candle, or a bit of gold dust. Meanwhile, the gnolls are being hunted down because they are "brutish creatures, who have no honest business being on our lands". They are deemed an "infestation", and a bounty is put on them as soon as they are spotted. Stormwind doesn't even treat its own people well - a guard gives you a quest to kill a guy for stealing a pig, and you have to fight him and loot his head off his corpse in front of a couple children (presumable his own), and the destitute refugees crowding in Westfall are treated with disgust by the guards.

These things don't get noticed when the quest mobs are coded as ugly, poor, stupid or savage, or when they did the slightest thing wrong. It's business as usual, even though they're all sentient, maybe a bit slow (which in our world would demand compassion). But when the quest mobs are humans, with a West-coded culture no less, why, whatever faction kills them are the worst villains in WoW!

But the story is not awful, that's what I'm telling you. Sylvanas' story at least.

Why are we talking about dwarves and Goldshire? The topic is Sylvanas and whether she's evil or not. The dwarf who wanted to kill troll children will face the Arbiter's judgement when he dies. But we are talking about Sylvanas. Why this sudden shift?

And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.

Not really an entire planet. Outlands consist of one continent (Draenor has several), and only fractions of said continent.

Also don't downplay Sylvanas' feats. Starting a world war and committing genocide right at the beginning of it is noteworthy.

1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
2. killing sons of lotahr?
3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
"whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.

To be honest Illidan always felt like a tame villain. If I'm not mistaken Blizzard even lamented how passive Illidan felt, he didn't seem like a real threat, hence why they eventually wrote the Lich King and Deathwing as more proactive and "in your face" villains. If I'm not mistaken he didn't even threaten all of Outland. The Legion was a bigger threat in Blade's Edge, Netherstorm, and of course Hellfire (where they cause the expansion to happen by reopening the portal).

[FelPlague]

And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.

1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
2. killing sons of lotahr?
3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
"whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.

[Eazy]

They raided Forsaken territory.

Although that wasn't pointed at me, I'll give a question:
Does that mean they had right and weren't evil for doing such a thing?

If someone raid some place, does that mean other people can experiment on their prey?

Do homeowners have right to experiment on burglars(if they catch them) and they wouldn't be labeled as someone evil?

[FelPlague]

To be honest Illidan always felt like a tame villain. If I'm not mistaken Blizzard even lamented how passive Illidan felt, he didn't seem like a real threat, hence why they eventually wrote the Lich King and Deathwing as more proactive and "in your face" villains.

^^^
They did so because illidan was not a villian in warcraft, he was chaotic good. so when tbc came out and they needed some good villians they just chose him cause he was a good figurehead, he wasnt even the final boss of the expac.
they tried their best to make him a villian who we kinda agreed with, but their shitty writing back then... well yeah... didnt work, but hey with legion they took those ends and tied them together to point out what they wanted to do, which was well good guy but "greater good" guy

[BaumanKing]

1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
2. killing sons of lotahr?
3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
"whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.

1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.