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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    But the story is not awful, that's what I'm telling you. Sylvanas' story at least.

    Why are we talking about dwarves and Goldshire? The topic is Sylvanas and whether she's evil or not. The dwarf who wanted to kill troll children will face the Arbiter's judgement when he dies. But we are talking about Sylvanas. Why this sudden shift?
    Because making Sylvanas a villain (or pretending to) is a narrative choice in a larger context.

    It doesn't just affect her, but other characters in the Horde and story moments experienced by the player, such as Vol'jin and his choice to name her his successor (and the tone of the clip in which he does that), or the repeat, at an accelerated pace, of the arc we experienced with Garrosh.

    It presents choices that strain credibility, such as the Horde at large going through with an unprovoked attack on the Night Elves - considering that most of the Orcs, the most violent of the tribal Horde races, were the ones who sided with Vol'jin in MoP and fought against their own (uncorrupted) kind to defend Azeroth in WoD, and that the newly joined Nightborne, while favoring the Blood Elves, probably weren't expecting a war with the people who helped them out in Legion - only to revert their stance over the much smaller issue of Baine being imprisoned for treason. Or the Forsaken siding with the Horde over Sylvanas, without a real explanation except for the opinions of characters presented as being in the minority... or the other Horde races believing that they would, for that matter, when they used to be mistrusted by many.

    It also presents the Alliance in an excessively idyllic light, which makes one ask why do the factions even exist, why doesn't everyone just join Anduin and his endless human potential.

    So you see, it's not just about Sylvanas. Just like Garrosh's story was partially responsible for destroying Thrall's character, turning Sylvanas into a villain upsets a lot of things within the Horde that you, as an Alliance player, probably don't care about.

  2. #122
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
    2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
    3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
    Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.
    1. illidan is doing so to save the universe, sylvanas is doing it to better herself and end the universe, aswell as doing it much worse then illidan
    2. illidan did not have direct control of them
    3. those were kaelthas's attacks on them, not illidans, and kaelthas had betrayed illidan, working with kiljaden
    4. LOLOL yeah no she aint, shall we look to some examples?
    *Sylvanas blows the horn for the meeting to end*
    *Some undead run back to sylvanas as they should, while others run away to try and get to their families.*
    *SYLVANAS KILLS ALL OF THEM, EVEN THOSE THAT OBEYED HER.*
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
    2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
    3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
    Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.
    Not exactly what Sylvanas is doing, she's straight up killing them. She committed the Burning of Teldrassil because she knew all those innocent souls would be automatically directed to the Maw (because the engine of death has been broken since Legion) and both she and the Jailer would grow much more powerful as a result.

    Are you really saying that attacking the decrepit Honor Hold or two outposts equals to Sylvanas nuking Gilneas, Southshore, and Teldrassil? Obviously Illidan can be blamed for having been hostile towards Alliance and Horde, but he hasn't caused nearly as much damage to civilian targets as Sylvanas has. Even the broken he enslaved if I'm not mistaken were mostly warriors whom he needed to bolster his defences.

    Sylvanas isn't really kind to those who obey her though, is she? The loyalist player followed her every command, and yet she was still willing to let Azshara kill them as she had no plan to save her loyalists from what was to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Because making Sylvanas a villain (or pretending to) is a narrative choice in a larger context.

    It doesn't just affect her, but other characters in the Horde and story moments experienced by the player, such as Vol'jin and his choice to name her his successor (and the tone of the clip in which he does that), or the repeat, at an accelerated pace, of the arc we experienced with Garrosh.

    It presents choices that strain credibility, such as the Horde at large going through with an unprovoked attack on the Night Elves - considering that most of the Orcs, the most violent of the tribal Horde races, were the ones who sided with Vol'jin in MoP and fought against their own (uncorrupted) kind to defend Azeroth in WoD, and that the newly joined Nightborne, while favoring the Blood Elves, probably weren't expecting a war with the people who helped them out in Legion - only to revert their stance over the much smaller issue of Baine being imprisoned for treason. Or the Forsaken siding with the Horde over Sylvanas, without a real explanation except for the opinions of characters presented as being in the minority... or the other Horde races believing that they would, for that matter, when they used to be mistrusted by many.

    It also presents the Alliance in an excessively idyllic light, which makes one ask why do the factions even exist, why doesn't everyone just join Anduin and his endless human potential.

    So you see, it's not just about Sylvanas. Just like Garrosh's story was partially responsible for destroying Thrall's character, turning Sylvanas into a villain upsets a lot of things within the Horde that you, as an Alliance player, probably don't care about.
    I think you're being melodramatic. She's been a villain since Classic and that alone in my opinion was not a problem for the story or the characters around her. I definitely would've preferred if she had remained dead at the end of WotLK though. Her story arc was done at that point and concluded in an actual sombre and interesting way. Here's a person who devoted her last years to getting revenge on one guy. And she arrived 10 minutes too late, losing her chance at revenge. It's a nice metaphor of how blindly following vengeance is not worth it.

    But of course they needed to bring her back in Edge of Night. Probably because they had not yet developed other Forsaken characters, so they needed to keep Sylvanas around. Now luckily that's no longer a problem. Voss is a developed character who already replaced Sylvanas as the de-facto leader of the Forsaken.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 09:28 PM.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I think you're being melodramatic. She's been a villain since Classic and that alone in my opinion was not a problem for the story or the characters around her. I definitely would've preferred if she had remained dead at the end of WotLK though. Her story arc was done at that point and concluded in an actual sombre and interesting way. Here's a person who devoted her last years to getting revenge on one guy. And she arrived 10 minutes too late, losing her chance at revenge. It's a nice metaphor of how blindly following vengeance is not worth it.

    But of course they needed to bring her back in Edge of Night. Probably because they had not yet developed other Forsaken characters, so they needed to keep Sylvanas around. Now luckily that's no longer a problem. Voss is a developed character who already replaced Sylvanas as the de-facto leader of the Forsaken.
    Voss replacing Sylvanas is like Matthias Shaw replacing Anduin... only worse, because Shaw is actually more interesting than the boy king

    The Horde is severely lacking first tier characters... we were lacking them since Legion. Only Baine, Lor'themar and Gallywix left as legit racial leaders, the rest core races left aimless or reverted to second tier chars... and Gallywix is presented as an antagonist too, especially to his own race (something that never really happened with Sylvanas). Meanwhile, the Alliance has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Genn, Moira, Muradin, Mekkatorque and Jaina, with her family in tow.

    Sure, you can count Thalysra and Talanji as newly introduced but heavily featured leaders, but then you have Turalyon and Alleria on the Alliance side, both major characters with deep, deep lore roots. You want to count Rexxar and Rokhan? Ok, but count Maiev, Shandris and Brann as well. And the Alliance has successors ready too, Genn has a daughter who was there from the start, and now we found Bolvar's kid as well. Even if we add Thrall returning from neutrality (he is a joke and a permanent mockery of a character now, but ok), the Alliance still has Magni and Khadgar waiting in the shadow.

    What Sylvanas actually needed was a resolution with Arthas. She should have been part of the encounter back in WotLk, instead of getting a failed attempt that didn't progress the story in any way, and made her look even worse after the Wrath Gate.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Voss replacing Sylvanas is like Matthias Shaw replacing Anduin... only worse, because Shaw is actually more interesting than the boy king

    The Horde is severely lacking first tier characters... we were lacking them since Legion. Only Baine, Lor'themar and Gallywix left as legit racial leaders, the rest core races left aimless or reverted to second tier chars... and Gallywix is presented as an antagonist too, especially to his own race (something that never really happened with Sylvanas). Meanwhile, the Alliance has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Genn, Moira, Muradin, Mekkatorque and Jaina, with her family in tow.

    Sure, you can count Thalysra and Talanji as newly introduced but heavily featured leaders, but then you have Turalyon and Alleria on the Alliance side, both major characters with deep, deep lore roots. You want to count Rexxar and Rokhan? Ok, but count Maiev, Shandris and Brann as well. And the Alliance has successors ready too, Genn has a daughter who was there from the start, and now we found Bolvar's kid as well. Even if we add Thrall returning from neutrality (he is a joke and a permanent mockery of a character now, but ok), the Alliance still has Magni and Khadgar waiting in the shadow.

    What Sylvanas actually needed was a resolution with Arthas. She should have been part of the encounter back in WotLk, instead of getting a failed attempt that didn't progress the story in any way, and made her look even worse after the Wrath Gate.
    No, her not even getting a spot in the Arthas fight in my opinion was poetic justice for her stupid monologue in WC3 which let Arthas get away.

    Also half of the Alliance leaders you mentioned didn't even appear in BfA beyond 10 minutes. I'm not really interested in crazy power levels if nothing is done with those characters.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, her not even getting a spot in the Arthas fight in my opinion was poetic justice for her stupid monologue in WC3 which let Arthas get away.

    Also half of the Alliance leaders you mentioned didn't even appear in BfA beyond 10 minutes. I'm not really interested in crazy power levels if nothing is done with those characters.
    It's not about appearance in BFA, but potential for the story going forward. The Horde was stretched between two identities without much explanation as it why it kept jumping between them, and with the current lack of characters it's left even more aimless.

    But I applaud your commitment to claiming every story choice that shits on Sylvanas is great just because it shits on her. You would make a great arch for her! I really hope they Kerrigan her, because it would be hilarious to see you wring your fingers about it on the forums...

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    It's not about appearance in BFA, but potential for the story going forward. The Horde was stretched between two identities without much explanation as it why it kept jumping between them, and with the current lack of characters it's left even more aimless.

    But I applaud your commitment to claiming every story choice that shits on Sylvanas is great just because it shits on her. You would make a great arch for her! I really hope they Kerrigan her, because it would be hilarious to see you wring your fingers about it on the forums...
    I never claimed that at all. Also, there's nothing wrong with supporting a negative character arc for a villain that was already established 15 years ago. Also, I gave reasons why I think it was poetic justice for Sylvanas to miss Arthas' death just by a few moments.

    Also, nah, I already said that if they Kerrigan her I'll just take the L and accept it. I don't really see the point in QQing on the forum, plus that'd mean that Sylvanas fucks off never to be seen again. In the end it would somewhat be worth it just for that.

    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    I guess I can see why you're not the best person to understand to Undead fans.

  9. #129
    Did OP just drop this turd of a thread on the carpet and then run off?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    I agree with that. Sylvanas should've just stayed dead at the end of WoTLK.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    I guess I can see why you're not the best person to understand to Undead fans.
    Actually I have talked with many undead fans in the past, and many of them agree that they would have preferred if Sylvanas remained dead in Cataclysm. Her story was done at that point. Also many undead fans did not like the new direction they had under Sylvanas in Cataclysm. Not all undead players enjoyed the "evil conquerors who use chemical weapons and valkyrs" narrative.

    You do not speak for anyone but yourself. Crazy, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Did OP just drop this turd of a thread on the carpet and then run off?
    Seems to be the case. A thread which basically asks whether Sylvanas is evil or not is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 10:46 PM.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Bael'dun is built on tauren village that contained children. Alliance also burn vulpera carriages, which likely contain children, as they are rarely depicted walking alongside adults.

    As for torture, it is not only Horde that uses prisoners for target practice.
    but are horde vermin even considered ''people''?

  13. #133
    The Lightbringer Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Avatar checks out.
    shes the best looking of the three sisters alleria is a close second... and vereesa isnt even that good looking at all.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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  14. #134
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.
    If illidan is your bar for not being a villain then wow doesn’t have any villains at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    which was well good guy but "greater good" guy
    The greater good is a meaningless concept when it comes to rather some one is a villain or not as most villains see them selfs as doing the right thing. Arthas was going after the “greater good” by making a united undead Azeroth so was Sargaras by stoping he void lords. Illidan hits every single possible bar for being a villain just like any one else the only different is his evil acts line up with what core players of Azeroth want so they turn a blind eye to them.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    shes the best looking of the three sisters alleria is a close second... and vereesa isnt even that good looking at all.
    how is a reanimated dead corpse better looking than a living, beautiful High Elven one

  16. #136
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.
    Illidan is a villain
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  17. #137
    Are there people that seriously still believe Sylvannas is doing the greater good by killing all of Azeroth? I can't wait to end her in Shadowlands along with her Jailer Master so we can finally close this chapter for good.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Are there people that seriously still believe Sylvannas is doing the greater good by killing all of Azeroth? I can't wait to end her in Shadowlands along with her Jailer Master so we can finally close this chapter for good.
    Yes.
    "She says and does awful things, but in her heart, I know she means well and does her best."

  19. #139
    High Overlord Lorde Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    Nothing Better than Sylvanas Fanboys Tears For Breakfast, keep it up guys.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-29 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  20. #140
    They're not done with her yet, we still have a whole expansion to go until her story is (presumably) closed.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

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