Alliance and Horde = good and evil ?

[Hottage]

Something, something, shades of grey.

[Venziir]

I never addressed the lore chronologically... And my facts are quite sorted: Illidan originated from one of the ever so noble races that ended up in the alliance.

Point is: every race can produce evil characters, despite of the chosen faction.



Mostly the same comment I gave to the guy above. The chronology of events is not the thing that matters here. Medivh, Arthas and Illidan are representatives of races that are part of the Alliance, so the Alliance is perfectly capable of producing evil characters as well. In this case why must the horde be labelled as evil?



I appreciate your chronological clearance. But I'm not messing with chronological events here. Please check my comments to the 2 other guys above.

Bullshit - just admit you were wrong instead of trying to act as if you are right. Your entire point was that both factions can be regarded as good and evil, then when people point out that your examples of this aren't tied to any factions - you end up claiming that the factions were never important - nonsense.
Illidan was a night elf that did bad things - yes. Medivh was a human that did bad things - yes. Neither were members of the Alliance, despite their races LATER joining a faction called The Alliance.

[Greengrim]

Why does it matter if they originated from Alliance races? Saying that the Alliance is good does not mean that their races cannot produce evil people, since you will never find a race comprised only of good individuals. You have no point and aren't proving anything that people didn't already know.

I'm not here to prove anything to anybody else but to my friends with whom we constantly argue if Alliance/Horde are good/evil or neither.

But finally, just as you wrote (and thank you for agreeing with me) all representatives, from all races, and both factions, can indeed produce evil characters... That right there, was my point, and not the chronological structure of the events concerning Medivh, Arthas and Illidan...

Bullshit - just admit you were wrong instead of trying to act as if you are right. Your entire point was that both factions can be regarded as good and evil, then when people point out that your examples of this aren't tied to any factions - you end up claiming that the factions were never important - nonsense.
Illidan was a night elf that did bad things - yes. Medivh was a human that did bad things - yes. Neither were members of the Alliance, despite their races LATER joining a faction called The Alliance.

My entire point was that Alliance/Horde should not be labeled good/evil as members from all races, despite faction choice, can produce evil characters. To my understanding you agree with that. I just don't understand why you're trying to convince me what my own point was, but then again, I don't really care either...

[Varodoc]

I'm not here to prove anything to anybody else but to my friends with whom we constantly argue if Alliance/Horde are good/evil or neither.

But finally, just as you wrote (and thank you for agreeing with me) all representatives, from all races, and both factions, can indeed produce evil characters... That right there, was my point, and not the chronological structure of the events concerning Medivh, Arthas and Illidan...



My entire point was that Alliance/Horde should not be labeled good/evil as members from all races, despite faction choice, can produce evil characters. To my understanding you agree with that. I just don't understand why you're trying to convince me what my own point was, but then again, I don't really care either...

I mean, no, that still wasn't your point, because you literally claimed Illidan, Medivh, and Arthas were Alliance material. Then after you were told you were wrong, you switched points.

[Kyphael]

Neither should be evil, but bad writing = Garrosh + Sylvanas = Alliance good and Horde evil.

[Greengrim]

I mean, no, that still wasn't your point, because you literally claimed Illidan, Medivh, and Arthas were Alliance material. Then after you were told you were wrong, you switched points.

No? I said "...kinda Alliance material..." which is in no way a concrete claim, and it was in no way connected to Arthas or Illidan, it was exclusively in regards to Medivh...

[Varodoc]

No? I said "...kinda Alliance material..." which is in no way a concrete claim, and it was in no way connected to Arthas or Illidan, it was exclusively in regards to Medivh...

Nope.

Of course we respond to these with Alliance examples of evil characters: Medivh, Illidan, Arthas.

/10chars

[Greengrim]

Nope.



/10chars

Ok, but I clarify what I mean by that "claim" in later posts? Seriously, what's your problem, ran out of toiler paper or something??

[MrLachyG]

they are both morally grey

[Varodoc]

Ok, but I clarify what I mean by that "claim" in later posts? Seriously, what's your problem, ran out of toiler paper or something??

Nothing, just correcting you on a mistake you made. Not sure what toilet paper has to do with this, but okay.

And you could have clarified that without saying that we didn't understand your point when you literally changed it mid-discussion.

[schwarzkopf]

No - closer to Alliance and Horde being law/order and chaos/entropy.

[Aeula]

Alliance is mostly good, Horde is mostly evil.

As of BfA anyway. It wasn't always this way.

[Sondrelk]

Alliance is mostly good, Horde is mostly evil.

As of BfA anyway. It wasn't always this way.

It kinda was, BfA just made it worse.

WoW started with the Alliance being comprised of people who have every reason to hate the Horde for invading and either directly or indirectly killing thousands.
The Horde started out as the Noble savages who were trying to escape their dark past while hypocritically worshipping those directly responsible.

Then Things became worse as the expansion went on.
The Alliance became more and more justified in their hatred of the Horde for spawning more and more evil people, while the Horde kept obliviously worshipping those responsible for the Alliance hating them while holding up the victim card. Things like condoning slavery and then being surprised when one of their slaves turns out to be the King of Stormwind who goes on to attack them with vengeance.

BfA is when these problems reached their zenith.
Alliance is now almost entirely comrpsied of those who have given the Horde loads of chances despite being burned several times. And the Horde is comprised almost entirely of genocidal yes-men who do not care about those they kill and who they serve until it becomes a problem for them directly.

[Venziir]

I'm not here to prove anything to anybody else but to my friends with whom we constantly argue if Alliance/Horde are good/evil or neither.

But finally, just as you wrote (and thank you for agreeing with me) all representatives, from all races, and both factions, can indeed produce evil characters... That right there, was my point, and not the chronological structure of the events concerning Medivh, Arthas and Illidan...



My entire point was that Alliance/Horde should not be labeled good/evil as members from all races, despite faction choice, can produce evil characters. To my understanding you agree with that. I just don't understand why you're trying to convince me what my own point was, but then again, I don't really care either...

This is just hilarious, if your entire point was that it was about races not factions - why not make that clear from the start, instead of picking a bunch of examples that weren't connected to any of the factions?

[Greengrim]

Nothing, just correcting you on a mistake you made. Not sure what toilet paper has to do with this, but okay.

And you could have clarified that without saying that we didn't understand your point when you literally changed it mid-discussion.

Toilet paper jokes are funny because ... yeah you know what - just forget it ... I just attempted to clear some tension.

I didn't change my point man, it was always the same. I agree, I did present it in a wrong way in my main post, but explained it later on. Still doesn't mean I changed it... English is not my primary language, I don't always have the right words and expressions...

This is just hilarious, if your entire point was that it was about races not factions - why not make that clear from the start, instead of picking a bunch of examples that weren't connected to any of the factions?

Because my friends are labelling the factions good/evil based on specific individuals. Even if Medivh and Illidan are not ideal examples, that fact still remains true...

But whatever makes you tick bro, we can have it your way - I'm clueless as to what I'm talking about. Happy now? The poll shows me what I came here for anyway...

[Arikara]

The writers in charge of continuing to sell a recyclable story have seen fit to repeatedly hit the Horde, or parts of the Horde, with the villain bat for the sake of selling their product and its supposed story. This has led to a decline where the Horde is villified both in-game and out, despite the offenders being pretty clearly ridiculous extremist factions. At this point, it's been done often enough that those who are incapable of holding a nuanced view will conclude that the Horde as a whole is evil, and that those who play Horde have been divided into sub-factions loyal to different incompatible ideals, because apparently that is the power that a Warchief going 'Look at me I'm cool' holds over the player population.

None of these things were ever the case before Garrosh became Warchief. Even the most deluded anti-Horde figureheads couldn't make such claims without being laughed down. Nowadays, they have a very good case. Good job, writers.

Cue forum drama

[Ryonas]

Yes, of course. The Alliance is the paragon of virtue and justice. The Orcish Horde is a gaggle of literal monster-creatures that invaded our world with the intent of mindless slaughter and carnage. These disgusting creatures have proven time and again that they are incapable of higher thought/enlightenment, and exist only to destroy. They are to be reviled, exterminated, and NEVER trusted.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Yes, of course. The Alliance is the paragon of virtue and justice. The Orcish Horde is a gaggle of literal monster-creatures that invaded our world with the intent of mindless slaughter and carnage. These disgusting creatures have proven time and again that they are incapable of higher thought/enlightenment, and exist only to destroy. They are to be reviled, exterminated, and NEVER trusted.

Of the playable Horde races, the only ones who aren't native to Azeroth are Orcs. Trolls, Tauren, Undead, Blood Elves, Goblins, and the Huojin Pandaren are all native to Azeroth, with most of them predating humans.

[Venziir]

Toilet paper jokes are funny because ... yeah you know what - just forget it ... I just attempted to clear some tension.

I didn't change my point man, it was always the same. I agree, I did present it in a wrong way in my main post, but explained it later on. Still doesn't mean I changed it... English is not my primary language, I don't always have the right words and expressions...



Because my friends are labelling the factions good/evil based on specific individuals. Even if Medivh and Illidan are not ideal examples, that fact still remains true...

But whatever makes you tick bro, we can have it your way - I'm clueless as to what I'm talking about. Happy now? The poll shows me what I came here for anyway...

Finally, we agree

[DeltrusDisc]

I'm not here to prove anything to anybody else but to my friends with whom we constantly argue if Alliance/Horde are good/evil or neither.

Maybe it's time to discuss things that actually matter with your friends.
Or at least not talk about this mind-numbing nonsense, since even you, with whom I agree in that neither side is inherently good or bad, cannot get your thoughts straightened out and are back-tracking for miles.

And you say, "but then again, I don't really care either..."
PROVE IT and STOP RESPONDING THEN.
Just, STOP.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing, just correcting you on a mistake you made. Not sure what toilet paper has to do with this, but okay.

And you could have clarified that without saying that we didn't understand your point when you literally changed it mid-discussion.

He's grasping hard to try and insult you as he's running now with his tail between his legs.
Anything to try and get at you. It's pathetic, really.