Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Minikin]

yes I am talking about her original death. also i see her icc death is like terminator lowering itself into that cauldron. after that she did pretty evil shit, i do not deny that. But up untill icc i see nothing wrong?

was gonna respond to this but @Thage pretty much laid it all out for ya.

[danielewhite]

Undead Sylvanas has always been a villain, albeit a manageable one

https://youtu.be/G9osOdem9x8?t=1098

if killing a foe makes you a villain, then all wars are made of villains...sadly we think killing necessarily means you are bad (despite it being a war u don't want to kill? good logic)
Garithos was a racist problem, that wanted Sylvanas to get out of his lands...despite the fact, Sylvanas needs land for her people. yes, a thrall would have tried to make peace with him...and after Garithos razed his people and it was only him and a few...he would have taken Garrithos too...ill give you that...but Sylvanas took care of the problem before he was a problem...that's a good leader...someome who cares for their own people.
that for her war3 persona...

now for her actual persona, she's garbage... she doesn't deserve to die, shes one of the few good characters left in the franchise that people still care about (like it or not, a fact is a still a fact)
what she deserves...and all character deserve is a good story and a good story writer they already destroyed Arthas...Illidan...Vashj
Kael'thas...maiev...thrall...Tyrande ...etc...

Activision Blizzard is falling apart and it's showing on their games
what We need is a new direction.
the game quality is bad and it shows in all their characters not only Sylvanas.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

words

Have you actually gone though any of the supporting lore around genn? He wasn’t white washed he got push back from varian in wolf heart got
Push back from his own people in the curse comics and push back from the other wolfs in the silver pine questing. Characters coming to terms with what some one did and seeing past it isn’t white washing them.

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of all the things aside, i could never understand why she is going to be tormented forever in maw.
If I remember correctly she died in combat trying valiantly to save her people. she died for a noble cause.
then she realizes she is going to be in maw forever after icc events? why? after she was raised a banshee, again all she did was to free people and fight against the demonlords and arthas. still a noble cause?

why eternal damnation awaits her? because she didn't die naturally because of reasons outside her? what kind of judgement system is this?

The ends don’t tend to justify the means when it comes to after life’s. Her fighting against the lichking doesn’t make all the messed up stuff she did ok not the stitching people together to make abombs or live testing the blight on people.

[Whitedragon]

Sylvanas is a villain and she's been a villain since Classic. Hint: there's a reason why she went to hell in WotLK.

Also, there's nothing tragic in her character. She wants to avoid hell, but that's not tragic at all, because she deserves that hell for all her the evil things she did. You don't get to commit many crimes against the living and then cry when you're sentenced to hell.

Also, to people who say Burning of Teldrassil was out of character:

Wasn't even in classic, we got a good look at her free undead ideals back in Warcraft 3 TfT where she had no problems mind controlling local groups and sending them to their doom for her own gain. She Also reneged on her promises and murdered her allies after the taking of the capitol city.

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Garithos was a racist problem, that wanted Sylvanas to get out of his lands...despite the fact, Sylvanas needs land for her people. yes, a thrall would have tried to make peace with him...and after Garithos razed his people and it was only him and a few...he would have taken Garrithos too...ill give you that...but Sylvanas took care of the problem before he was a problem...that's a good leader...someome who cares for their own people.
that for her war3 persona....

Trouble is even if she needed land, she did promise THAT land to him in exchange for his help. doesn't mater for who or for what you're doing a deed, if you back stab an ally you are backstabbing an ally... In this case it meant the murder of said ally (Even if he himself probably is going to the same hell) and all the remaining men under his command in the area... Yes the forsaken had a home, but it was built on the bodies of those she betrayed...

[Ielenia]

The Horde showed at the Siege of Orgrimmar that a Warchief's power means nothing if they go against the spirit of the people. A rebel will rise up, gain support and depose them.

Except that the Warchief's power kept "the spirit of the people" subdued because of the Horde's ideal that the Warchief is not to be questioned and that the Horde is an instrument of the Warchief's absolute will.

Case in point: Nazgrim knew that Garrosh was in the wrong, but 'honor' and 'duty' to the Horde kept him at Garrosh's side.

[Manariel]

When did that take place? Exactly.

I invite you to return to Vanilla, where the lorded over the abominations that are Forsaken, which relishes in the torture of innocent, including the lobotomization of humans, atrocious experiementations, assault and murdering sprees because how dare their living relatives act if the things were dead, etc.

Sylvanas and her creatures have been monsters and evil from the start. But they served the Horde. Or have your forgotten WotLk and Cata, with the Blight and all its uses ?

[danielewhite]

not really, again this is war....and you must do whatever it is to for the sake of your people... and our people alone.
Sylvanas is indeed a ruthless leader, she always said so "they would slaughter anyone who stands in their way" but she never betrayed her own people.
and as a strategist, she knew she couldn't take the Dreadlords army alone...if a promise is what it takes her to guarantee the safety of her people...so be it... I would do it too.
It's like you would pick a stranger (Garithos is a stranger.)over your family...now that would be evil.
and now again... yeah a thrall would have abandoned the alliance lands and cause great disgrace to his own people for the sake of honour. taking into account the undead had nowhere else to go...they would have probably died.
so yeah... I guess logic dictates that killing your own people and keeping your word....that's good.
(let's also remember she did not want this war. she only killed the dreadlords because she refused to join them and they couldn't take no for an answer so they started attacking her people.)

one last point I would like to make what if she was evil?.
I mean Arthas is evil... and nobody wanted him to die... everyone loves him.
Illidan (before retcon) was the original Loki, sometimes do evil sometimes do good...depends on his mood...and everyone loves him. (before the retcon) now people don't like him so much and call him the edge lord. curious that after his character was rewritten he's mot so popular anymore.

Anduin Wrynn probably hated as much as Sylvanas...and he's
the antithesis of evil, goodness made person.

So it doesn't really depend on whether the character is good or evil that we are going to like them.
it has always been said a good villain is what moves a story.

so yeah as the OP commented I'm pretty pissed that world of warcraft story is rehashed garbage and all characters are poorly written with 0 dimension or motives.

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I invite you to return to Vanilla, where the lorded over the abominations that are Forsaken, which relishes in the torture of innocent, including the lobotomization of humans, atrocious experiementations, assault and murdering sprees because how dare their living relatives act if the things were dead, etc.

Sylvanas and her creatures have been monsters and evil from the start. But they served the Horde. Or have your forgotten WotLk and Cata, with the Blight and all its uses ?

have you ever been to the scarlet monastery? its all you said, made by humans where they torture forsaken.
(the logic of most people here it's really poor... and don't really comprehend what war is about...but it begins with...anyone who is not part of your own people is the enemy..and you can't humanize them...because that makes you weak...go to war history...read about people like Winston Churchill...a person loved in the UK. and a complete monster to his enemies...
good and evil are on the eye of the beholder ......by doing good to some people u could do evil on others. it's all relative.

the only way u can be tagged as evil...is that you hurt your own people. because you have connections to them.
(it doesn't matter where we come from...our civilizations are here because they killed others...experimented on others...and only cared for their own survival.)

[Ardenaso]

i love how you make up stuff with this
"Restless scourge" you mean dead scourge
"Extinction of XYZ" drakkari were evil so.... vrykul also evil, the rest woulda been wiped out but...
"Global flooding" not exactly proven true
"Unleash yog and the faceless ones" he was unleashed anyways... so literally doesent matter
"Restless scourge" oh look, trying to make a point by repeating it, doesent make it true.
"Possible damage" yeah you are making that up
"possible madness of malf" again making stuff up
and oh look you repeat it again


no, ending the lich king woulda been so much better.

Dead scourge? There must always be Lich King. Did you even see what happened in Warcraft 3 when the Lich King was losing his powers? Hint: the Scourge didn't die off

Genocide is still genocide.

Bael'gun himself said that Yoggy's squids were recently awakened. Who do you think woke them up?

I'm sure Malfy wouldn't stay calm and sober after headache he experienced and the trauma if it went on, again it's in Warcraft 3.

Also, with Illidan literally breaking "the roof of the world" do you think Northrend would still stay intact and not cause the water levels to rise?

Even for Warcraft 3 purists, all my points are valid.

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Well, that's her usual mood, along with taking care of her children - except when she mysteriously forgets even having children in the first place The de-Horde part is more in line with Alleria, and especially Umbric (until now, at least).

the de-Horde is now the same degree as Alleria. As of Three Sisters, she wants the Blood Elves to be back to the Alliance (yeah right after you just murdered them and still no apology or amends)

[Raisei]

OP dunno what you were expecting here, its clear that what Blizzard wanted to do with the character worked. You can tell by the reactions to your post. Now people think she has "always been bad" because of BfA writing and everything example they pull it from is(you guessed it), BFA. Not even noticing the irony of their arguments, how badly the character was written to "become the villain that these people wanted", and how boring a "Villain" she is. Its cool if you never liked Silvanas but the character was completely ruined in one expansion and everything about the expansion was completely overshadowed by the poor development of 1 character.

As @Varodoc already pointed out this is false. Several people have added examples of her villainy that stem from years before BFA. Basically from the moment she got her free will back. For example, weeks after she got freed she had her apothecaries develop and test a new blight on both human test subjects she captured and her own Forsaken.

On top of this I find it hillarious that people give Blizzard the fault for assassinating her character, when she was always this character. People just deluded themselves into thinking she is an anti-hero while Blizzard ALWAYS presented her as a villian. Every word written about her shows this, Edge of Night, War Crimes, BtS.
She is an evil psychopath and a coward, that schemes in the background and let's others take the fall for her crimes. She did this with the Wrathgate, she tried it during Garroshs Trial and she tried it at Telldrassil again with blaming Saurfang.

It was so obvious that Blizzard did not even include a loyalist campaign into BFA because they thought everyone knew it would be a bad idea to follow her, but the fanbois surprised them by demanding to side with the villain.

[Varodoc]

Wasn't even in classic, we got a good look at her free undead ideals back in Warcraft 3 TfT where she had no problems mind controlling local groups and sending them to their doom for her own gain. She Also reneged on her promises and murdered her allies after the taking of the capitol city.

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Trouble is even if she needed land, she did promise THAT land to him in exchange for his help. doesn't mater for who or for what you're doing a deed, if you back stab an ally you are backstabbing an ally... In this case it meant the murder of said ally (Even if he himself probably is going to the same hell) and all the remaining men under his command in the area... Yes the forsaken had a home, but it was built on the bodies of those she betrayed...

I know, I didn't deny she already committed terrible things in Classic. But to me her behaviour in Cataclysm raised many red flags. Nothing she did in Classic comes close to her attempt to exterminate the gilnean people, though she was evil back then too.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

have you ever been to the scarlet monastery? its all you said, made by humans where they torture forsaken.
(the logic of most people here it's really poor... and don't really comprehend what war is about...but it begins with...anyone who is not part of your own people is the enemy..and you can't humanize them...because that makes you weak...go to war history...read about people like Winston Churchill...a person loved in the UK. and a complete monster to his enemies...
good and evil are on the eye of the beholder ......by doing good to some people u could do evil on others. it's all relative.

the only way u can be tagged as evil...is that you hurt your own people. because you have connections to them.
(it doesn't matter where we come from...our civilizations are here because they killed others...experimented on others...and only cared for their own survival.)

Even by your own metric sylvanas is evil. She tries to hurt the blood elf’s by raising them, she plans to kill her own sisters, she feeds the forsaken into the meat grinder for her self and her self alone, she betrays the horde. There is no part of “her people” who she doesn’t hurt or try to hurt.

[Raisei]

if killing a foe makes you a villain, then all wars are made of villains...sadly we think killing necessarily means you are bad (despite it being a war u don't want to kill? good logic)

Killing an enemy is one thing, killing an enemies defenseless family and friends to extinquish their hope is quite different. Sylvanas did the latter at Teldrassil and she killed a lot more completely unrelated people because she did not care. Like the ones gruesomely killed in ther blight experiments and at the Wrathgate oh and when she was completely okay with poisoning the pandaren guards as long as it meant getting Garrosh.

These are not the acts of a warrior fighting a war, killing enemies. These are the acts of a cowardly terrorist and villain that targets innocents to bring a point across.

Garithos was a racist problem, that wanted Sylvanas to get out of his lands...despite the fact, Sylvanas needs land for her people. yes, a thrall would have tried to make peace with him...and after Garithos razed his people and it was only him and a few...he would have taken Garrithos too...ill give you that...but Sylvanas took care of the problem before he was a problem...that's a good leader...someome who cares for their own people.
that for her war3 persona...

Sylvanas promised the land to him though. Even though Garithos was a rascist bastard, Sylvanas made a deal with him and betrayed him when he was no longer of use. Garithos at least was open about his rascism, but I agree that he got what was coming to him.
He deserved his fate, but what about his troops? Even among them he was hated. The Dwarfs hated him and the humans only followed him because of his rank. Did they deserve to be slaughtered because their boss was an asshole? I don't think so.

now for her actual persona, she's garbage... she doesn't deserve to die, shes one of the few good characters left in the franchise that people still care about (like it or not, a fact is a still a fact)
what she deserves...and all character deserve is a good story and a good story writer they already destroyed Arthas...Illidan...Vashj
Kael'thas...maiev...thrall...Tyrande ...etc...

Ah you are one of those that think Sylvanas is the one shining light, the last vestige of good story left, such nonesense. How exactly did they destroy Arthas? He hasn't even appeared since WotLK and the others are completely in line with how they were wirtten in WC3...

[Varodoc]

not really, again this is war....and you must do whatever it is to for the sake of your people... and our people alone.
Sylvanas is indeed a ruthless leader, she always said so "they would slaughter anyone who stands in their way" but she never betrayed her own people.
and as a strategist, she knew she couldn't take the Dreadlords army alone...if a promise is what it takes her to guarantee the safety of her people...so be it... I would do it too.
It's like you would pick a stranger (Garithos is a stranger.)over your family...now that would be evil.
and now again... yeah a thrall would have abandoned the alliance lands and cause great disgrace to his own people for the sake of honour. taking into account the undead had nowhere else to go...they would have probably died.
so yeah... I guess logic dictates that killing your own people and keeping your word....that's good.
(let's also remember she did not want this war. she only killed the dreadlords because she refused to join them and they couldn't take no for an answer so they started attacking her people.)

one last point I would like to make what if she was evil?.
I mean Arthas is evil... and nobody wanted him to die... everyone loves him.
Illidan (before retcon) was the original Loki, sometimes do evil sometimes do good...depends on his mood...and everyone loves him. (before the retcon) now people don't like him so much and call him the edge lord. curious that after his character was rewritten he's mot so popular anymore.

Anduin Wrynn probably hated as much as Sylvanas...and he's
the antithesis of evil, goodness made person.

So it doesn't really depend on whether the character is good or evil that we are going to like them.
it has always been said a good villain is what moves a story.

so yeah as the OP commented I'm pretty pissed that world of warcraft story is rehashed garbage and all characters are poorly written with 0 dimension or motives.

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have you ever been to the scarlet monastery? its all you said, made by humans where they torture forsaken.
(the logic of most people here it's really poor... and don't really comprehend what war is about...but it begins with...anyone who is not part of your own people is the enemy..and you can't humanize them...because that makes you weak...go to war history...read about people like Winston Churchill...a person loved in the UK. and a complete monster to his enemies...
good and evil are on the eye of the beholder ......by doing good to some people u could do evil on others. it's all relative.

the only way u can be tagged as evil...is that you hurt your own people. because you have connections to them.
(it doesn't matter where we come from...our civilizations are here because they killed others...experimented on others...and only cared for their own survival.)

She never betrayed her own people because she needed them as meatshield.

Also, I dont remember any forsaken being tortured in the Scarlet Monastery.

And nobody has a problem if you love Sylvanas despite her being a villain. I love Darth Vader and this guy killed children. The problem comes when you Sylvanas fanboys pretend she's not evil.

[Malix Farwin]

Are you freaking serious do you guys have no life or something, i am not talking about this anymore you guys are clearly biased stop replying to me. Literally pointless arguing because neither side is going to change their opinion.

Infracted.

[Varodoc]

Are you freaking serious do you guys have no life or something, i am not talking about this anymore you guys are clearly biased stop replying to me. Literally pointless arguing because neither side is going to change their opinion.

Get over yourself, people can reply to you how many times they want. Sorry but this isn't your personal blog. Also it's not a case of being a no-lifer nerd, in case you hadn't noticed there's a quarantine going on so it's not like people can do many things in their free time.

[Minikin]

have you ever been to the scarlet monastery? its all you said, made by humans where they torture forsaken.

theyll most probably end up in the abyss too. who knows. but them being asses doesnt mean sylvanas was....assless? less ass? my mind is fried.

the only way u can be tagged as evil...is that you hurt your own people. because you have connections to them.
(it doesn't matter where we come from...our civilizations are here because they killed others...experimented on others...and only cared for their own survival.)

which she ends up doing. and now, either people get to say "HA SEE! i told you she was AlWayS evil!" or "well i kinda believe it cuz look how she acted before". because issue is. In the end, she was no saint. she was pragmatic. and eventually her desperation and actions drove her over the edge.

put it this way. Arthas' grand plan was to kill everyone and make them undead, not just because he wanted to rule and what not. But because he believed that the scourge was the best defense for azeroth against legion and watever tentacles out there wait in the dark. But regardless of his grand scheme to save us all by killing us, his ass got thrown in the Maw.

it seems pretty familiar?

[Varodoc]

theyll most probably end up in the abyss too. who knows. but them being asses doesnt mean sylvanas was....assless? less ass? my mind is fried.



which she ends up doing. and now, either people get to say "HA SEE! i told you she was AlWayS evil!" or "well i kinda believe it cuz look how she acted before". because issue is. In the end, she was no saint. she was pragmatic. and eventually her desperation and actions drove her over the edge.

put it this way. Arthas' grand plan was to kill everyone and make them undead, not just because he wanted to rule and what not. But because he believed that the scourge was the best defense for azeroth against legion and watever tentacles out there wait in the dark. But regardless of his grand scheme to save us all by killing us, his ass got thrown in the Maw.

it seems pretty familiar?

Familiar to Sylvanas? Not really. Her plan is a lot more selfish than Arthas'. At least Arthas thought he was genuinely ensuring Azeroth's protection against greater evils. Sylvanas wants to kill everyone literally because she's a nihilist. She's a lot more selfish than Arthas. Also Arthas AT THE VERY LEAST saw the Scourge as his children and took great pride in stirring the hearts of his "people". Sylvanas doesn't even care about her loyalists and sees everyone as an expendable pawn. At this point she's become worse than her abuser.

[Yarathir]

People keep forgetting that Orcs are literal alien invaders that reek of demon blood.

B-but the Night Elves didn't even show their face! Those cowards!
(You know, despite the fact that that is their way of waging war.)

[Minikin]

Familiar to Sylvanas? Not really. Her plan is a lot more selfish than Arthas'. At least Arthas thought he was genuinely ensuring Azeroth's protection against greater evils. Sylvanas wants to kill everyone literally because she's a nihilist. She's a lot more selfish than Arthas. Also Arthas AT THE VERY LEAST saw his Scourge as his children. Sylvanas doesn't even care about her loyalists. At this point she's become worse than her abuser.

i dunno about her plan but i mean familiar as in, she might have started with "im killing these humans to make the forsaken strong" and she eventually ended with "how many red and blue people i can feed into the meat grinder for my next talent choice",

edit
related to how, arthas would take up frostmourne to pay any price for his people. ends up decimating them all.

edit 2:
you know. its realllll tough to actually stay on track for this threads main topic, which is "was there character assassination". because yea sure there might be proof of that BUT wading through the whole "she did nothing wrong shes not evil" absolutely wrecks any such benefit of the doubt lol. CUZ SHE IS EVIL lol!

[Raisei]

Are you freaking serious do you guys have no life or something, i am not talking about this anymore you guys are clearly biased stop replying to me. Literally pointless arguing because neither side is going to change their opinion.

Well, for one thing, yes I have a life. Thank you for asking.

Secondly, I did not voice an opinion, I told you facts as they have been written in several books, you voiced the opinion that people could not recognize Sylvanas is evil before BFA and it is all Blizzards fault for twisting her character, which was disproven by said facts. It is your perogative to stick to that objectively wrong opinion but do not put us on the same level.