The end of specializations?

[Alkizon]

People talking about "roles" are mostly forgetting that most "role" part is your gear.

[Lahis]

What you're describing are talent trees as they were from Vanilla to WLK.

[Monster Hunter]

I get this argument. It's just my inner elitist thinking about how during dungeon leveling I will now see people not only with completely wrong talents and doing less dmg than a healer but also people casting wrong spec. spells with those wrong talents Not that I level alts that often.

They do that allready. Ideots will be ideots even if blizz gave them no options they would still fuck up basic rotations and have poor special awareness.

But you would be more flexible in handling it at least with some quick talent swapping.

Dps are shit, min max ur own dps,
Tanks shit, splash defensives,
Healers shit, splash for healing.

[Unholyground]

I find it interesting, but there are still inherent things that differentiate the roles.

Like a Tank has to be inherently sturdier then a DPS. this could be done with Talents tho, but then the reality of gameplay will kick in and dictate to you which abilities you have to use and which Talents you need to choose, basically just like now. The spec itself will disappear but the rotations and gameplay will not change much, take a Death Knight for example.

The Masteries are pretty straightforward, if those were to be kept as Talents you would choose Frost damage (former Frost Mastery) or Shadow Damage (Unholy Mastery). After that, you would obviously pick the corresponding abilities for your playstyle. So you end up with the Unholy spells if you picked the Unholy Mastery and the Frost spells if you picked the Frost Mastery. Inserting other abilities into your gameplay at that point will most certainly be a loss in dps.

So I don't dislike the idea, but I fear in the reality of gameplay it will be inconsequential. But I support anything that gives me more toys to play with

Well they can bring stances/buffs back for the tank classes like they used to have, it used to be nice popping into blood presence and finishing a boss after the tank died or tanking in a full DPS build in a tanky stance. When they started removing that kind of flexibility from the classes it started hurting the game (one of many things that hurt the game).

[Redroniksre]

No it was a choice. Far more of a choice than now. Bis is bis on patchwerk, there's very few patchwerk bosses, I had the freedom to splash prot for more defence or splash ret for old content and more dmg as a healing pala. That's freedom in my hands to make choices based on the content I wish to tackle.

As dps I could do the same, splashing for defensives for soloing and farming, or on bosses where the dmg made the healers struggle or to meet certain phases.

People like you who struggle with more than 3 options a row utterly ruined this game with the mop talents. I'm glad blizz is moving back in the right direction and I cannot wait till the moba talent system is Finaly thrown in the bin where it belongs and we get more freedom to again define our own abilities.

Oof, i don't think this guy realizes that with the current talent system there are actually multiple viable builds whether you are going for ST or AoE heavy fight. I love that mage example, like them bringing back frostbolt for fire mages. Why would they ever cast it? It would be a complete DPS loss, and is otherwise a useless button. But it seems like that is what you guys want, useless buttons just so you can feel like you have choice. I mean you can make macros that don't do anything and it would be the same thing. Also the whole "they can just balance it!" despite not realizing that the more you add the harder the game becomes to balance and that it just means it would go slower than it already is.

[Monster Hunter]

What you're describing are talent trees as they were from Vanilla to WLK.

In spirit yes, that exact implementation no.

I advocate for something like the way essences work but without the silly unlock requirements.

You get X slots to fill with any talents from a pool of all the talents avaliable to a class + any expansion specific talents like we have with Azerite. And you can build what you want.

Mages still won't be tanks or healers but they can splash any combination of frost, fire or arcane or run pure, it's up to them like in vanilla to wotlk.

[Razion]

What it would mean is.

Say you a hunter right.

U have the bis dps talent choices provided by Sims and like now on a pathwerk raid boss that would be your bis.

But say ur pushing a high mythic key, and that specific m+ would go better with more cc so you can drop some dps for more cc, or say the uptime on a boss suites a different damdge pattern, you can alter to that, say your doing solo content like visions, you can splash for talents better for that.

Think of how essences work only all of them are unlocked, and how depending on what your doing you can be more efficient at that thing by tailoring your essences to the content. If you want to Still follow a bis list and use that for every aspect then you can. But like essences there's sualy more optimal choices than the bis depending on what your doing or what the group could use to make things easier.

Hm.

My only real issue with this is that class and spec fantasy is infinitely cooler than some generic essence-like talents. I probably wouldn't be at all interested in a system like essences being expanded into a generic talent tree. We already have talent trees for specs, and getting rid of talent trees for specs to make room for some kind of generic ability set shared between all classes doesn't catch my visual imagination as much as I would like, even if the mechanics are interesting I think the flavor would still need a lot of work - assuming I'm reading all that right.

[erifwodahs]

They do that allready. Ideots will be ideots even if blizz gave them no options they would still fuck up basic rotations and have poor special awareness.

But you would be more flexible in handling it at least with some quick talent swapping.

Dps are shit, min max ur own dps,
Tanks shit, splash defensives,
Healers shit, splash for healing.

One good thing is that my tank pala might have some cool dps options for lower keys. Pure dps specs won't change much I would suspect. Most fun comes for hybrid classes - paladins, druids. I could imagine running a key on sustain paladin tank and a boomkin resto. (I assume gear will won't give you agility if you are talented as resto).

[Monster Hunter]

Oof, i don't think this guy realizes that with the current talent system there are actually multiple viable builds whether you are going for ST or AoE heavy fight. I love that mage example, like them bringing back frostbolt for fire mages. Why would they ever cast it? It would be a complete DPS loss, and is otherwise a useless button. But it seems like that is what you guys want, useless buttons just so you can feel like you have choice. I mean you can make macros that don't do anything and it would be the same thing. Also the whole "they can just balance it!" despite not realizing that the more you add the harder the game becomes to balance and that it just means it would go slower than it already is.

Frost bolt has a slow component. So it has a use.
Current talent choices are between 1 of 3, most classes don't even have Aoe v single target choices on a lot of rows and for some it's not even worth swapping to them, my boomkin changes essentially 2 talents depending on if I'm doing raiding or m+.

The balance argument is retarded, 1. Balancing is there job running an mmo, 2. Wheres that promised balance they said the new talent system would give when they took away our choices?.... Oh yea it never happend and 3. Balance is far less important than fun if ur that arsed about being a few % better, Re role and save us all the headache.

As for running slower wtf are you on about, the client and server don't make balancing changes on the fly.

[RobertMugabe]

What if blizzard removed the specialization switching in SL or beyond? Your just your chosen class.

- You have access to most skills your class has to offer. (at max lvl)
- The talent system gets super expanded with multiple rotation/gameplay and role defining choices. *
- Yes, you prob. will have more abilities then buttonslots, but is that really so bad? You just have to make a skill selection.
- Gear and chosen talents define your main (LFG)party-role, when making a manual group you can do whatever you like.

* Example: choose between the two versions of Metamorphosis as a Demon Hunter.
* Example: choose between Jade statue and Ox statue as a monk.


Would you like a system like this and have access to more class skills.

So basically the old talent system?

[Monster Hunter]

One good thing is that my tank pala might have some cool dps options for lower keys. Pure dps specs won't change much I would suspect. Most fun comes for hybrid classes - paladins, druids. I could imagine running a key on sustain paladin tank and a boomkin resto. (I assume gear will won't give you agility if you are talented as resto).

Tanks, healers and hybrids would have the most breadth of flexibility yea.

Dps would still be able to tailor for content though, I bet alot of shadow press would appreciate being able to splash talents like they could do back in the day to tackle content like visions.

- - - Updated - - -

Hm.

My only real issue with this is that class and spec fantasy is infinitely cooler than some generic essence-like talents. I probably wouldn't be at all interested in a system like essences being expanded into a generic talent tree. We already have talent trees for specs, and getting rid of talent trees for specs to make room for some kind of generic ability set shared between all classes doesn't catch my visual imagination as much as I would like, even if the mechanics are interesting I think the flavor would still need a lot of work - assuming I'm reading all that right.

They would be class abilities just in the essence way so for hunter one would be the you get 2 pets Talent.

Then u could be a melee hunter with 2 pets, a more mm hunter but with 2 pets or w/e u wanted it to be.

The. Blizz can throw in the expansion themed abilities just into the pile if you want to alter your theme or not.

[Redroniksre]

Frost bolt has a slow component. So it has a use.
Current talent choices are between 1 of 3, most classes don't even have Aoe v single target choices on a lot of rows and for some it's not even worth swapping to them, my boomkin changes essentially 2 talents depending on if I'm doing raiding or m+.

The balance argument is retarded, 1. Balancing is there job running an mmo, 2. Wheres that promised balance they said the new talent system would give when they took away our choices?.... Oh yea it never happend and 3. Balance is far less important than fun if ur that arsed about being a few % better, Re role and save us all the headache.

As for running slower wtf are you on about, the client and server don't make balancing changes on the fly.

Well first off, your problem is only one in your head. To give you an example, what they could do is simply take the current talents, scatter them on a talent page, and throw a few +1% crit/haste/etc. nodes in between. There is your choice! Even though it is literally no different and it just looks more "free" to you. Balancing being there job does not mean you can demand infinite new abilities and they have to be able to keep up. Adding one new row of talents to every class (assuming same between every spec) would alone add 36 new abilities. I take it you have no clue about game dev? I am on the side that balance needs to not interfere with fun, but in the same vein you can't be unbalanced as fuck or it becomes unfun to play the losing class. Balancing also takes time, which they are already slow at implementing big changes, imagine with your idea it would be 100 times worse.

[Monster Hunter]

Specializations work because it helps to define roles within the game. But they are also true in real life. Just because you can be called a doctor doesn't mean your PhD in history will give you the skills to perform brain surgery.

But being a brain surgeon dosnt make you forget the basics of other displines.

The idea of spec in wow has as blizz said, gone way way way way to far. And it started with the mop talents as that bound people to a specifically deified view of a spec that also changed over time so now we have alot of people dissatisfied as the current view isn't the moo view or wod view of that spec and many more upset because a warrior is a warrior and they rolled a warrior and feel really contrived being out in a box of only 3 specific types of blizz approved warrior. Where as befor they could define what warrior was to them.

[huth]

Nope. Things come at a cost. A base paladin healing would be the same as ret Palas healing is now. That pala could drop some dps talents for better healing, but then they would have less damdge.

It's pretty self balancing in the regard out side of any especially op talents, but then blizz get payed monthly so they could just do there fucking jobs and nurf and buff things that are under or op like that.

But at that point you just have your spec selection back and haven't actually achieved anything.

[Monster Hunter]

Well first off, your problem is only one in your head. To give you an example, what they could do is simply take the current talents, scatter them on a talent page, and throw a few +1% crit/haste/etc. nodes in between. There is your choice! Even though it is literally no different and it just looks more "free" to you. Balancing being there job does not mean you can demand infinite new abilities and they have to be able to keep up. Adding one new row of talents to every class (assuming same between every spec) would alone add 36 new abilities. I take it you have no clue about game dev? I am on the side that balance needs to not interfere with fun, but in the same vein you can't be unbalanced as fuck or it becomes unfun to play the losing class. Balancing also takes time, which they are already slow at implementing big changes, imagine with your idea it would be 100 times worse.

It wouldn't because i wouldn't be able to pick and define what I want my char to be. It would be constrained to the narrow view of what blizz sees as the 3 specific types of paladin. And the 3 specific types of play style.

Would it be harder to balance? No it wouldn't, not any more than we have currently. That system wouldn't have Infinate talents, most talents we hae now could be chopped anyway as alot just give the same thing but in the different specs.

Atm blizz are balancing talents, abilities, Azerite traits from 4 rows, essences, set bonuses and corruptions.

All in different systems that then all interact with each other in stange new ways.

You think this way of seeing talents is new and revolutionary?? No its not, its simply consolidating the 3 different "talent systems" we hae now into one and preventing the need to keep inventing a new way of doing talents each expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

But at that point you just have your spec selection back and haven't actually achieved anything.

You have achieved choice.

You don't hae to make an arms war like the current arms war. You can make an arms war with a sword and shield if you wish, becauseaybe you do more than just log for raids and what that extra defence for some solo content.

The beuity for flexibility is you can choose but you not interfering with others freedoms not to choose the same thing you did.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

And then you get the paladin who does full DD damage, can take a beating like a tank and heal like a healer and you see why that is a really dumb idea.

<eats popcorn>

<looks over at vanilla where it was precisely what the original poster described>

<looks at the paladin>

Mmmmmhmmm.

<continues eating popcorn>

[Monster Hunter]

Well first off, your problem is only one in your head. To give you an example, what they could do is simply take the current talents, scatter them on a talent page, and throw a few +1% crit/haste/etc. nodes in between. There is your choice! Even though it is literally no different and it just looks more "free" to you. Balancing being there job does not mean you can demand infinite new abilities and they have to be able to keep up. Adding one new row of talents to every class (assuming same between every spec) would alone add 36 new abilities. I take it you have no clue about game dev? I am on the side that balance needs to not interfere with fun, but in the same vein you can't be unbalanced as fuck or it becomes unfun to play the losing class. Balancing also takes time, which they are already slow at implementing big changes, imagine with your idea it would be 100 times worse.

Also blizz were quicker at making balances pass's back in vanilla to wotlk than they hae been in recent years. So.... This is the thing..... Blizz promised us better balance for less choice, less customization.... We didn't get much better balance, nor quicker..... So we want a refund, we want our flexibility back.

The whole pro current talents argument is based on the fallacy that it is any better at being balanced than the old or any new system when compared to the end of wotlk it simply isn't all that better. But I exchange we lost something alot of people found fun. Hell even now people get excited when we break blizzard stright jackets and find wierd builds like the outlaw daggers build from the start of bfa

[shade3891]

... I love that mage example, like them bringing back frostbolt for fire mages. Why would they ever cast it? It would be a complete DPS loss, and is otherwise a useless button. But it seems like that is what you guys want, useless buttons just so you can feel like you have choice. I mean you can make macros that don't do anything and it would be the same thing. Also the whole "they can just balance it!" despite not realizing that the more you add the harder the game becomes to balance and that it just means it would go slower than it already is.

The point is there wont be fire or frost mages, just mages. You might preffer fire over frost because you are currently running with lots of crit gear, but still be able to cast Blizzard and frost nova to slow down a pack then nuke one down with a frost lance and a Pyroblast. Sure Masteries need to be adjusted to account for the multiple damage types.

So basically the old talent system?

No not really, I was more thinking in the line of the essence system you can select what you think is best for you or the current situation.

At least someone in this topic has a clue.

Nope, if you only pick dps talents/skills you should seriously lack in defensive or healing power. You can make a hybrid spec and do a bit of both.
Pure dps classes just have more options to play their class or tailor their rotation for the situation/encounter/dungeon.


Easy fix: Lets say you can choose 15* traits/talents:
For every dps talent you pick you deal 2%* more damage.
For every healing talent you pick your healing is increased by 2%*.
And for every defensive talent damage you take is reduced by 2%*.

* example values

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Nope, if you only pick dps talents/skills you should seriously lack in defensive or healing power. You can make a hybrid spec and do a bit of both.
Pure dps classes just have more options to play their class or tailor their rotation for the situation/encounter/dungeon.


Easy fix: Lets say you can choose 15* traits/talents:
For every dps talent you pick you deal 2%* more damage.
For every healing talent you pick your healing is increased by 2%*.
And for every defensive talent damage you take is reduced by 2%*.

* example values

Psst. Dude. You're 100% describing how the game used to be. Your own (willful) ignorance to that truth notwithstanding.

[shade3891]

Psst. Dude. You're 100% describing how the game used to be. Your own (willful) ignorance to that truth notwithstanding.

Surely in a way, but I dont want a spec locked (one path) talent tree.
Think more like the essence system where you can put in talents.