How the European Union may not survive the Coronavirus

[Acidbaron]

Well, the solution is easy, don't you see? Just look at Greece. If those lazy, parasitical, profligate Untermenschen can't afford to keep their hotels, resorts, and other tourist businesses they need afloat, they can just sell them to foreign interests in Germany, the Netherlands, or Finland for a fraction of what they're worth. Poverty and desperation are great motivators for economic growth (for Germany and Co.).

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I'm not lauding Greece, just pointing out that if there's no solidarity then there's no point to the whole EU scheme beyond expanding Germany's export market.

Sure, let's start with the Nazi accusations while you're at it. This whole focus you have on Germany tells me enough.

Why do you even care, you're not even a Greek living in Europe. You're basically a tourist.

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I was enjoying your text until this came...


Really, a 78 billion baillout, that forced unemployment to hit 18%, forced privatizations from the IMF... And you wrote that? Really?

I was under the impression that the left wing government at least in the early years of the crisis had a different economic plan that got approved. I have to do say i am guilty in not knowing what happened to Portugal after all this.

[Stelio Kontos]

Sure, let's start with the Nazi accusations while you're at it. This whole focus you have on Germany tells me enough.

Why do you even care, you're not even a Greek living in Europe. You're basically a tourist.

If I had a coin for every time some newspaper in the UK, Germany, or any other northern country has used dog-whistle words for southern or eastern Europeans, I'd be a rich man. But you've got folks using terms like that in this thread, so don't @ me for putting it in its proper context.

[Tuor]

I was under the impression that the left wing government at least in the early years of the crisis had a different economic plan that got approved. I have to do say i am guilty in not knowing what happened to Portugal after all this.

We had a right wing coligation (PSD/CDS) from 2011-2016, they managed most of the crisis. One of the things IMF asks is always the privatization of public water distribution systhem, even today i don't have a clue how the portuguese governement managed to keep it as a public service.

The left wing governement is only in office since 2016 (they won the election again recently), and yes, things got a lot better then.

[Acidbaron]

If I had a coin for every time some newspaper in the UK, Germany, or any other northern country has used dog-whistle words for southern or eastern Europeans, I'd be a rich man. But you've got folks using terms like that in this thread, so don't @ me for putting it in its proper context.

Using Nazi rhetoric is out of proportion. And what do you believe happens in certain press from other nations? For someone claiming the northern half of Europe is claiming to be the one that "does no harm", ironic.

Or do you wish me to begin comparing the whole of Greece to Golden dawn?

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We had a right wing coligation (PSD/CDS) from 2011-2016, they managed most of the crisis. One of the things IMF asks is always the privatization of public water distribution systhem, even today i don't have a clue how the portuguese governement managed to keep it as a public service.

The left wing governement is only in office since 2016 (they won the election again recently), and yes, things got a lot better then.

Than i got my time line wrong, my apologies. My point was that the EU was open to alternative plans if there were in fact plans around to reducing a nations debt. This was in comparison to the Greek scenario where a whole lot of measures being forced on them were due to their own making or to be more correct their political class, who also stood at the cradle of this whole greek financial tragedy.

[Stelio Kontos]

Using Nazi rhetoric is out of proportion. And what do you believe happens in certain press from other nations? For someone claiming the northern half of Europe is claiming to be the one that "does no harm", ironic.

Or do you wish me to begin comparing the whole of Greece to Golden dawn?

Golden Dawn are garbage. They are vile human beings. I have no problem saying that. I wish folks on the other side of this divide could do the same for their hateful counterparts.

Nazism should have no support in Greece, considering the brutality of the German Nazis during ww2. It's shameful that there are any.

[Acidbaron]

Golden Dawn are garbage. They are vile human beings. I have no problem saying that. I wish folks on the other side of this divide could do the same for their hateful counterparts.

Nazism should have no support in Greece, considering the brutality of the German Nazis during ww2. It's shameful that there are any.

Good, and if you are speaking of people on the other side as being me. My nation does not tolerate ties or glorifications with collaboration or nazism, it is even a crime in the latter category. There is one party in particular and that one has been set in a sort of political isolation.

And as you like using Germany, i suppose this also flew under your radar? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/w...ingia-afd.html
If it was as common place as you claimed AfD would be in a majority government now.

[Fuiking]

Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.

[Deletedaccount1]

Unfortunately it will survive it just fine.

[JohnBrown1917]

Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.

Religion will only further fuck it, so good luck with that.

[Fuiking]

Religion will only further fuck it, so good luck with that.

I did not bring in religion per se. Then again, dutch culture is heavily influenced by Calvinism and the Lutheran Church.. if you meant that?

[Mayhem]

I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.

The northern countries, like the Netherlands and Germany, don't want to extend any help to the south. The south is growing increasingly angry about the lack of help from the centralized EU government and are wondering what they bothered to sign up for.

Hell, didn't Germany stop medical supplies from going to Italy to keep them for themselves?

Hmm, here's what I found on that.

https://www.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-...3-fe4680ea68b5

When Italy asked for urgent medical supplies under a special European crisis mechanism no EU country responded. Fearful of its own shortages, Germany initially banned the export of medical masks and other protective gear. 3M, a producer, said the German restrictions had made it impossible to supply the Italian market. Berlin subsequently relaxed the export rules, but then Austria closed its borders to people arriving from Italy unless they could prove they were virus-free.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14...aly-china-aid/

So the problem isn't just us profligate, parasitical southern Europeans, as is often made the case by "we never do wrong" northerners. If the EU can't (or more accurately won't) help members with a fucking pandemic, and solidarity is nonexistent except for northerners working and profiting with each other only then what's the point of the whole Frankenstate?

Brilliant argument you've created.

Apparently, it is the EU's fault for not having the power to tell countries what to do but it is also the EU's fault for being a centralized government that is unwilling to help.

How did you come up with this and never thought "wait a minute, that doesn't check out"?

And you think Greece would be better off out of the EU, because then it would really be everyone for themselves and that despite criticizing it is also better?

WAT?

[Acidbaron]

Never knew that my jab at the Netherlands derailed it so massively..

I mean, I pointed out that I dislike/hate the Netherlands and there inflexibility and lack of empathy, goverment-wise.. Sadly this goes deeper then that.. You cannot fix a cultural disease. Poldermodel you say? thats just a way of reaching consensus for everyone acceptable.. nothing flexible about it. And its all cultural.

Dutch Lutheran/Calvinist culture. Cant be fixed...only thing I had hoped for.. that Hoekstra/Rutte would be atleast tactful and not be a YEET type of message.. Sadly... This was not the case.

Btw: If you cant tell, yes. I absolutely hate the Netherlands, only reasons why I'm not gone yet: Family, im from the south, no finances to emigrate.

Come live in Belgium, or government is easily one of the craziest constructs there is in democracies but we have one of the best healthcare systems in Europe while private insurers are only there for more extra's; only for holiday insurance your dutch provider is the first responder. Working in the Netherlands and living in Belgium is the best of both worlds to be honest ever since the tax agreement.

[Fuiking]

Come live in Belgium, or government is easily one of the craziest constructs there is in democracies but we have one of the best healthcare systems in Europe while private insurers are only there for more extra's; only for holiday insurance your dutch provider is the first responder. Working in the Netherlands and living in Belgium is the best of both worlds to be honest ever since the tax agreement.

I'd love to :P

[Acidbaron]

The EU is largely a trade association. The only sovereignties that the member states have ceded to the EU relate to trade. All other competencies, including defense, are still in the hands of the member states.
What will be tested from this crisis is the Euro, largely because of Italy's massive debt. I see no recourse beyond the ECB buying some of that debt and placing Italy under far more scrutiny than they did Greece.

Despite the events of this week i still see the euro-bonds happening, because the alternative is China gaining ground in Europe and that is not something Germany or the Netherlands want, to name the two big opponents of this idea. They are also getting some criticism.

Russia is also trying a very odd charm offensive in Italy (disinfecting the streets in Italy, why Russia?), so i doubt that will sway Finland to rethink on this matter but who knows.

[Acidbaron]

I honestly don't see Netherlands or Germany budging on this.

I have to agree with an opinion i just heard and that as much like with the banking crisis an answer will come at the final hour when there's no other choice.

[Demolitia]

I honestly don't see Netherlands or Germany budging on this.

Probably not, but the next MFF is being discussed. It might not be called that but might be sneaked into the mff as some sort of fund or resolution mechanism as they did during the financial crisis. The problem is not so much agreeing on the principle as explaining it to your citizens

[Deja Thoris]

I'm not a fan of the EU, and I think in the long run Greece would be better off out of the EU. But I do think it's interesting how the virus is laying bare the false face of the EU. There's no solidarity or help between the members. As soon as the virus started spreading, it became every man for himself.

Oh please, without the EU greece would have walked backwards at a rate of knots. Seems like every second person there was employed by the state to do fuck all and the rest make a hobby of cheating taxes.

[d00mGuArD]

Oh please, without the EU greece would have walked backwards at a rate of knots. Seems like every second person there was employed by the state to do fuck all and the rest make a hobby of cheating taxes.

Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
Seriously that is an actual law!

Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

But these are happening with EU or without. I don't see why you think EU makes that better.

[Acidbaron]

Not to mention the amazing law that anyone working for the state can never be fired no matter what.
So those that work for the state many times don't even show up for work. No one can fire them anyway...
Seriously that is an actual law!

Most government organizations close at 13:00 so that the dudes that did show up can go home and rest... after 5 hours of hard work!

But these are happening with EU or without. I don't see why you think EU makes that better.

The EU requested the number of people employed by the state were reduced, asked to reform and restructure it. In addition tackled the corruption and tax evasion.

I would have to take some time to search, but there was some sort of agreement between Greece, the EU and The ECB to get the loans that they did. They must have been doing something right as Germany eventually came with reducing their national debt.

[Stelio Kontos]

Indeed all public servants have effective tenure. It is practically impossible to overturn that law (and politicians would not even dare try since it would turn a significant segment of the electorate against them). But public services certainly do not close at 13:00 ( they work 8-15 and are open to the public from 8:30-14:30). Meanwhile the private sector works among the longest hours in the OECD

Shhh, don't counter their narrative. Can't have that. Greeks were working some of the longest hours in the West even before the crisis, but it's easy to just focus on the handful of cases that suit a convenient narrative.