Page 17 of 50 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
19
27
... LastLast
  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I was addressing your point that it's bad lore development if evil is always brought to justice. That's the way Warcraft has been since at least Reign of Chaos (though WC2 also ended with the good guys' victory) by very design of the game (you are the hero, so you'll defeat evil).
    So in war3 FT when Sylvanas minds control or kill all the livings to become the biggest power on Lordaeron that was being good?
    When Arthas purge Stratholme, becomes corrupted by the Lich King, destroy Lordaeron, raise Sylvanas as undead, bring the legion and fuse with the LichKing those were good deeds?
    Being the hero does not mean being a good guy in warcraft.

  2. #322
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,842
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    So in war3 FT when Sylvanas minds control or kill all the livings to become the biggest power on Lordaeron that was being good?
    When Arthas purge Stratholme, becomes corrupted by the Lich King, destroy Lordaeron, raise Sylvanas as undead, bring the legion and fuse with the LichKing those were good deeds?
    Being the hero does not mean being a good guy in warcraft.
    Hell, even Doomhammer is portrayed as a hero of sorts (for Orcs, including Green Jesus, at least). And he did some seriously !@#&ed up crap that makes Sylvie look like an amateur.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, it's not just the killing people thing. The dead are sent straight into the Maw, Sylvanas knows it, and she knowingly and willingly made a bargain to kill as many people as possible in order to empower herself. All that shit goes way beyond just killing your enemies in war. Blizzard has tons of stuff to explain (served with the usual healthy helping of retcons of course) if they want her being a good guy to make any sort of sense. Which is why I'm having a very, very hard time keeping any sort of open mind.
    Yes, the dead are sent to the Maw, but that would happen sooner or later anyway. For someone who is primarily concerned with what happens after death, what does it matter if someone gets to the Maw right now or after a long and prosperous life? That life is still nothing compared to the eternity of the beyond. So if killing lots of people right away would allow them to "fix" the Maw problem for the long term, wouldn't it be worth the sacrifice? This is very similar to what Illidan did last expansion, if more direct.

    Every time we faced the Legion, we "won" by closing a portal or defeating a demon lord, but after that they just kept trying, so every victory was merely postponing the final showdown. By opening the portal to Argus, Illidan forced us to have that final showdown right away, and it paid off... but a lot of people died because of it. On a cosmic level, maybe this was a necessary gambit, maybe we wouldn't have been able to stop the Legion 1000 years in the future and this was our one shot, but from the perspective of a regular mortal Joe down on Azeroth, it would have been better if Illidan, Velen, Khadgar and the raid group had sacrificed themselves at the end of the Kil'jaeden encounter and that particular invasion had ended there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Have you actually gone though any of the supporting lore around genn? He wasn’t white washed he got push back from varian in wolf heart got
    Push back from his own people in the curse comics and push back from the other wolfs in the silver pine questing. Characters coming to terms with what some one did and seeing past it isn’t white washing them.
    It doesn't matter that they justify his transformation in lore, the problem is that it happens in the first place.

    The Horde lacks Alliance antagonists that they can rally against, people like Garithos or Daelin Proudmoore, or like Sylvanas and Garrosh were for the Alliance. Pre-Cataclysm Genn Graymane would have been perfect for that role, but Blizzard gradually changed him to be more sympathetic, to the point that Before the Storm even made him tolerant towards the Undead. He was molded from a selfish asshole into a likeable protagonist, becoming the character Alliance players would have liked him to be. His past transgressions are barely even mentioned in game, even on the Horde side.

    Meanwhile, Sylvanas's character development in Cataclysm was hijacked by the requirements of the Worgen starting zone, like I explained. The question was never "What is the next logical step for Sylvanas right now?", or "What would Horde players like to see from Sylvanas?", but "What does the Worgen starting zone needs from Sylvanas as an antagonist?". This right after her place in the fight against Arthas was hijacked by Tirion the neutral human, and the spot of the Forsaken was tacitly taken by the playable Death Knight faction, also led by a human. As a Horde player, I wanted to see Sylvanas as a protagonist I could sympathize with (whether the Alliance liked her or not), and experience the nostalgia of seeing her be as clever as she was in Warcraft III, and I was robbed of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    snip
    World of Warcraft only broaches social and political issues in a very superficial manner. You can maybe project some real world ideas onto WoW, like you are doing now, but analysis of the world itself and its narrative does not lead to anything even remotely deep. The kind of commentary you can draw from WoW is not worth spoiling the immersion of a medieval fantasy world with kings, warlords and prophets, and that's coming from someone who was interested enough to get a masters in geopolitics.

    If you want to role play an Azerothian political analyst, I'm not going to hold it against you, but I'm not really interested. I mean, the core mechanics of the game don't lend themselves to being able to make the commentaries you brought up. First of all, 90% of all you do in game revolves around killing stuff, and killing sentient beings is even essential to some trades, such as tailoring. Stuff respawns all the time, so you will rarely get a true sense of loss from it, unless the narrative bends itself backwards to make a point of it. Second of all, the player character has absolute freedom. You can do anything you want, even if the narrative says you are ordered to do X job urgently under pain of death. You can go /spit on the High King or the Warchief, you can dance naked on top of them, you can jump with your crotch on their faces, nobody will do anything to you. You never have to go through any channels, and even when it comes to quest givers and other NPCs, they often seem quite independent, even on campaign. unless the narrative keeps telling you otherwise, and even then you have to buy into it.

    Cataclysm and MoP did a good job presenting the Horde as a totalitarian regime. The Orcs were the dominant race and they were fiercely loyal to Garrosh, often being seen pushing others around. Their salute, "Hellscream's eyes are upon you", was straight out of 1984. You saw the orcs stealing food from trolls and goblins and keeping a police force in the Undercity. And Garrosh himself was often shown abusing his power.

    Under Sylvanas, things are not the same at all. The whole point of Legion was that the Class Halls were taking charge and acting independently, like highly specialized NGOs. Sometimes they included Undead and Sylvanas herself provided support to them (we see a Dark Ranger in the hunter hall, apothecaries in the rogue hall), other times they worked with her enemies, and nobody questioned the Horde heroes about it. The Nighborne recruitment quest chain makes a point of stating the the Horde offers a member race more freedom than the Alliance.

    Even during the war, when you could argue the warchief's powers would be increased (as with any type of government during times of crisis). we see that Baine's arrest and Zelieg's execution are done in front of all the other Horde leaders, who could have intervened at any time if most of them didn't agree with Sylvanas. If their intention was to revisit a fascist regime, they did a very poor job, regardless of what Danuser says.

  4. #324
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    It doesn't matter that they justify his transformation in lore, the problem is that it happens in the first place.
    This is called character progression sylvanas got it as well you just don’t seem to like where her character progresses to even though it made perfect sense.

    The Horde lacks Alliance antagonists that they can rally against, people like Garithos or Daelin Proudmoore, or like Sylvanas and Garrosh were for the Alliance. Pre-Cataclysm Genn Graymane would have been perfect for that role, but Blizzard gradually changed him to be more sympathetic, to the point that Before the Storm even made him tolerant towards the Undead. He was molded from a selfish asshole into a likeable protagonist, becoming the character Alliance players would have liked him to be. His past transgressions are barely even mentioned in game, even on the Horde side.
    The horde has never lacked alliance
    antagonists you can look at this very forum and See people brining up varian, veressa, jiana, genn, captain Rodgers, ect. Maybe you want a cartoonishly evil character to hate but most people seem to understand that you don’t need to be twirling your mustache to be seen as a bad guy to the other faction.


    Meanwhile, Sylvanas's character development in Cataclysm was hijacked by the requirements of the Worgen starting zone, like I explained. The question was never "What is the next logical step for Sylvanas right now?", or "What would Horde players like to see from Sylvanas?", but "What does the Worgen starting zone needs from Sylvanas as an antagonist?". This right after her place in the fight against Arthas was hijacked by Tirion the neutral human, and the spot of the Forsaken was tacitly taken by the playable Death Knight faction, also led by a human. As a Horde player, I wanted to see Sylvanas as a protagonist I could sympathize with (whether the Alliance liked her or not), and experience the nostalgia of seeing her be as clever as she was in Warcraft III, and I was robbed of that.
    this Simply isn’t true. The logical steps for sylvanas were taken in cata in the worgen starting area she takes command as garrosh wants forsaken to die on mass and she goes against his orders to keep them alive. Then in silverpine she’s raising more undead which is again a logical step after she went to the maw and she is even shown to have some compassion left as she captures Crowley’s daughter but let’s her go instead of just killing her, this isn’t something that was done just for the worgen as they would have an even easier time hating her if she was killing prisoners without a second thought.

  5. #325
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    Posts
    19,105
    Daniel, question. Is ISIS morally justified under your delusions of moral relativity?
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    But i play Forsaken, how the hell am i winning? And why would i bring "Еvil" to justice if i'm the part of the same system Sylvanas created?

    I really don't. Sylvanas could die, forsaken could die. As i wouldn't mind Nelfs going extinct, or any other race's heroes dying.
    BUT not in MMO, when we have playable forsaken and thus playable scourge, that was build on that idea from day 1. And they see themselves as evil as any other race, so that's really subjective

    Forsaken lore was made to serve the story of BFA and not BFA story expanding forsaken lore. It was just milked for developing whatever that story was and thrown away. Again, maybe fine in RTS but Forsaken are a playable MMO faction for better or worse and should have been treated with a little bit more care as they were before.
    The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

    Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

    Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.
    they were a blend of "playable scourge" and "tragic misunderstood monster" since day1. thats even the reason why they appeared in the game in first place, dev apparently loved both fantasies behind them.

    anyway thats the big problem, sylvanas literally never did anything against any forsaken moral, the only thing is the speech in the last cinematic. and now we should buy that narrative and murder our rps because blizz says this? im not invested in voss, she was a nobody that refused to join my faction even after i helped her many times. im not invested in the shitty desolate council that never appeared in any quest/lore until the sudden creation of sad sack forsakens in the book. and damn if im not invested in calia, a shitty light follower that is the epitome of what i loathe.
    if blizz want to go this way at least it should grow a pair of balls and make something for us that would prefer deleting their character than become an hippie clown. let us die lorewise as proud forsaken if they dont know how to write an undead and ruthless playable race
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2020-04-01 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #328
    The Lightbringer Dartz1979's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Azeroth
    Posts
    3,006
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    how is a reanimated dead corpse better looking than a living, beautiful High Elven one
    didnt you see how hot looking sylvanas looked before they covered her in armor dead banshee or not she still looked good
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

    Duelingnexus name: Jaina1337
    Blizzard Battle Tag: Jaina1337#1396

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    didnt you see how hot looking sylvanas looked before they covered her in armor dead banshee or not she still looked good
    Alleria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sylvanas
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Alleria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sylvanas
    This to be honest. Alleria and Vereesa are hotter than High Elf Sylvanas.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Even by your own metric sylvanas is evil. She tries to hurt the blood elf’s by raising them, she plans to kill her own sisters, she feeds the forsaken into the meat grinder for her self and her self alone, she betrays the horde. There is no part of “her people” who she doesn’t hurt or try to hurt.
    agreed...what she does now is very questionable... I was only speaking when she and all the other characters had good storytellers behind them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Killing an enemy is one thing, killing an enemies defenseless family and friends to extinquish their hope is quite different. Sylvanas did the latter at Teldrassil and she killed a lot more completely unrelated people because she did not care. Like the ones gruesomely killed in ther blight experiments and at the Wrathgate oh and when she was completely okay with poisoning the pandaren guards as long as it meant getting Garrosh.

    These are not the acts of a warrior fighting a war, killing enemies. These are the acts of a cowardly terrorist and villain that targets innocents to bring a point across.



    Sylvanas promised the land to him though. Even though Garithos was a rascist bastard, Sylvanas made a deal with him and betrayed him when he was no longer of use. Garithos at least was open about his rascism, but I agree that he got what was coming to him.
    He deserved his fate, but what about his troops? Even among them he was hated. The Dwarfs hated him and the humans only followed him because of his rank. Did they deserve to be slaughtered because their boss was an asshole? I don't think so.



    Ah you are one of those that think Sylvanas is the one shining light, the last vestige of good story left, such nonesense. How exactly did they destroy Arthas? He hasn't even appeared since WotLK and the others are completely in line with how they were wirtten in WC3...
    as I said..what she does now is just evil. (even tho In the official story that's Saurfangs fault for not killing Malfurion.(it is a war you are supposed to kill people)
    Wrathgate retcon. they no longer know what to do with their character

    do you want to speak evil during warcraft 3 events?...
    I invite you all to debate about the evilest character In warcraft 3...
    of course, I'm talking about tyrande whisperwind
    who brutally murdered her Own people...not some random stranger on the battlefield.
    in order to release a criminal....who ultimately she didn't know if he would help.
    which Bytheway backfired soon after as Illidan tried to destroy one of the pillars of the world costing more elven lives...
    as Maiev said..she deserves to be in a prison just as much as Illidan.
    Last edited by danielewhite; 2020-04-01 at 07:03 PM.

  12. #332
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    27,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    This to be honest. Alleria and Vereesa are hotter than High Elf Sylvanas.
    to be fair we havent really gotten to see updated high elf sylvanas.
    or updated vereesa.
    we have just the comics to go by which well...
    makidot's version of the comic is SOOOOOOOOOO much better.
    https://makanidotdot.tumblr.com/tagg...redraw/chrono/
    its black and white sketch, but i highly reccomend it, it really is a far better version.
    (Mostly cause i LOVE their art style, and how expressive they make the charecters. plus in their own fan writings they make the charecters so much more fun)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    She never betrayed her own people because she needed them as meatshield.

    Also, I dont remember any forsaken being tortured in the Scarlet Monastery.

    And nobody has a problem if you love Sylvanas despite her being a villain. I love Darth Vader and this guy killed children. The problem comes when you Sylvanas fanboys pretend she's not evil.
    during warcraft3 she cared for her sisters...or at least that's what the story tells us. up pretty much this moment //// try to think about this is a story////with many retcons

    Vorrel Sengutz and like this dude, many other forsaken according to the lore were tortured by the scarlet crusade.......in the monastery...

    and by all means, no....shes is evil...a one-dimensional character...that I dislike so much.
    but that's mow...mothimg she did in warcraft 3 during Chris Metzen storytelling was evil.
    people complain she killed Garithos. like they don't actually understand in war people must be killed in order to guarantee the safety of your own.....
    pretty much like all other characters... Wow garbage storytelling is taking its toll.
    but that not Sylvanas fault....or Anduin's fault.
    Last edited by danielewhite; 2020-04-01 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #334
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    27,327
    Quote Originally Posted by danielewhite View Post
    during warcraft3 she cared for her sisters...or at least that's what the story tells us. up pretty much this moment //// try to think about this is a story////with many retcons

    Vorrel Sengutz and like this dude, many other forsaken according to the lore were tortured by the scarlet crusade.......in the monastery...
    "She cared for her sisters at one point, that must mean even 20 years later she still cares for them!"
    idk if you know... but if you like someone, you are not bound by the laws of phsyics to ALWAYS like them.
    alot has changed since warcraft 3, dont forget she hates vereesa for betraying her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    didnt you see how hot looking sylvanas looked before they covered her in armor dead banshee or not she still looked good
    I wanted to ask you to please say sike but, looking at ur icon, u do really wanna fuck a dead animated character don't u

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-04-01 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    to be fair we havent really gotten to see updated high elf sylvanas.
    or updated vereesa.
    we have just the comics to go by which well...
    makidot's version of the comic is SOOOOOOOOOO much better.
    https://makanidotdot.tumblr.com/tagg...redraw/chrono/
    its black and white sketch, but i highly reccomend it, it really is a far better version.
    (Mostly cause i LOVE their art style, and how expressive they make the charecters. plus in their own fan writings they make the charecters so much more fun)
    I was actually thinking about this the other day, I wish Vereesa's model were updated, I feel like she's big enough of a character to deserve her own unique model.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielewhite View Post
    during warcraft3 she cared for her sisters...or at least that's what the story tells us. up pretty much this moment //// try to think about this is a story////with many retcons

    Vorrel Sengutz and like this dude, many other forsaken according to the lore were tortured by the scarlet crusade.......in the monastery...
    Why are you suddenly bringing her sisters into this? We were discussing about her people. Also, "care, I mean, she wanted to kill Vereesa and her children in War Crimes but okay.

    If there are so many examples, then give more than one. Also just because your enemy did it doesn't mean you get to do that too, and on people who had nothing to do with your enemy, because many people they were experimenting on were just civilians and innocents, certainly not soldiers of the Crusade. Also mentioning that the Crusade also did that hurt your point if anything, because the Crusade was always presented as a villain which we had to stop.

    Also, did you even play WC3? Sylvanas and Garithos were not at war, they actually formed an alliance on the premise that Garithos would get his land back if Balnazzar was defeated, and Sylvanas AGREED to those terms. She is literally the one who proposed Garithos that offer. She backstabbed him as soon as he outlived his usefulness, with Varimathras even remarking how she was behaving like a treacherous dreadlord. There's nothing nuanced here.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-04-01 at 06:30 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  17. #337
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,548
    Quote Originally Posted by danielewhite View Post
    agreed...what she does now is very questionable... I was only speaking when she and all the other characters had good storytellers behind them.
    That could only possible be before she died since she was raised she was betraying her “people” one way or another, So she was always evil.

  18. #338
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    27,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I was actually thinking about this the other day, I wish Vereesa's model were updated, I feel like she's big enough of a character to deserve her own unique model.
    Need her to become part of the story for some reason. even if only like a small questline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

    Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.
    Most of the forskaken campain of war3 revolve around using banshees to mind controle people. The ultimate power of Sylvanas in war3 was also a mind controle. And suddenly it's something sacred for the forsaken? Meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Also, did you even play WC3? Sylvanas and Garithos were not at war, they actually formed an alliance on the premise that Garithos would get his land back if Balnazzar was defeated, and Sylvanas AGREED to those terms. She is literally the one who proposed Garithos that offer. She backstabbed him as soon as he outlived his usefulness, with Varimathras even remarking how she was behaving like a treacherous dreadlord. There's nothing nuanced here.
    Did you play war3? Garithos was a piece of shit who would have killed every forsaken at the slightest occasion. He litteraly tried to genocide his allied Blood Elves. Also 5 minutes ago he was controled by the legion. That's not someone you want as a neighbour.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-04-01 at 06:49 PM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Snip
    My generous interpretation is that you're just being obtuse. My less generous interpretation that you're being obtuse on a subconscious level since what I say makes you uncomfortable and unable to ignore some things that otherwise give you enjoyment if they're ignored.

    The ones that created this game had the intention to make it a fun experience and all that. Unless they did a conscious effort to keep politics out of it then politics will seep into it from their hand subconsciously when they create things. No person is an island, every artist will be let rw things seep into their creation unless they make an obvious effort to keep it out.

    And since there are politics in WoW that's unlikely. The internal and external politics of the factions are the politics in WoW.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •