Stupid myths about lore of Warcraft

[Sangris]

Another stupid myth that people always repeat: Using magic in a Mak'gora is cheating.

[Powerogue]

You'd think word would spread fast that Sylvanas won the stalemate at Lordaeron by unleashing the former servants of the Lich King...

Thought you were talking about dragging the death knight off to be tortured and brainwashed, which was in a cellar and the only place Sylvanas took off her disguise.

- - - Updated - - -

Another stupid myth that people always repeat: Using magic in a Mak'gora is cheating.

We can only really gauge based off the examples they've put in the game/canon. Generally there seem to be different rules agreed upon depending on the participants and situation, with some commonalities.

Movie: No shirts, no weapons. Cheating: Using soul-draining magic that prevents the opponent fighting back.
WotLK pre-event: Typical armor and weapons. Magic allowed, no one used anything that prevented the opponent fighting back. Interrupted by zombie dragons.
Cataclysm book: Melee weapons, can be blessed. Cheating: Poison that prevents opponent fighting back.
WOD: Typical armor and weapons. Thrall himself considered it dishonorable that he used magic to prevent his opponent fighting back. Elements seem to agree with him.
BFA: Melee weapons only. Shadow-imbued daggers maybe questionable, but pulling out hidden mystery magic to 1-shot opponent obviously cheating, and she forfeited by fleeing the scene.

So much like the orcish sense of honor, it changes constantly, but there's some vague commonalities to look out for.

[Sangris]

We can only really gauge based off the examples they've put in the game/canon. Generally there seem to be different rules agreed upon depending on the participants and situation, with some commonalities.

Movie: No shirts, no weapons. Cheating: Using soul-draining magic that prevents the opponent fighting back.
WotLK pre-event: Typical armor and weapons. Magic allowed, no one used anything that prevented the opponent fighting back. Interrupted by zombie dragons.
WOD: Typical armor and weapons. Thrall himself considered it dishonorable that he used magic to prevent his opponent fighting back.
BFA: Melee weapons only. Shadow-imbued daggers maybe questionable, but pulling out hidden mystery magic to 1-shot opponent obviously cheating, and she forfeited by fleeing the scene.

So much like the orcish sense of honor, it changes constantly, but there's some vague commonalities to look out for.

Where in the 5 seconds between Saurfang challenging Sylvanas and them actually fighting did they proclaim it was melee only? Also, there are more Mak'gora that happened outside of the game, where magic was used pretty liberally and noone had any issue with it. Also your WotLK pre-event example already rules out that magic is automatically considered cheating.

[Varodoc]

Thought you were talking about dragging the death knight off to be tortured and brainwashed, which was in a cellar and the only place Sylvanas took off her disguise.

- - - Updated - - -



We can only really gauge based off the examples they've put in the game/canon. Generally there seem to be different rules agreed upon depending on the participants and situation, with some commonalities.

Movie: No shirts, no weapons. Cheating: Using soul-draining magic that prevents the opponent fighting back.
WotLK pre-event: Typical armor and weapons. Magic allowed, no one used anything that prevented the opponent fighting back. Interrupted by zombie dragons.
Cataclysm book: Melee weapons, can be blessed. Cheating: Poison that prevents opponent fighting back.
WOD: Typical armor and weapons. Thrall himself considered it dishonorable that he used magic to prevent his opponent fighting back. Elements seem to agree with him.
BFA: Melee weapons only. Shadow-imbued daggers maybe questionable, but pulling out hidden mystery magic to 1-shot opponent obviously cheating, and she forfeited by fleeing the scene.

So much like the orcish sense of honor, it changes constantly, but there's some vague commonalities to look out for.

I was referring to the fact that Sylvanas won the Battle of Lordaeron by using Val'kyrs to mass-ressurect former Alliance soldiers and then manipulating them to attack the Alliance. I'm surprised Voss or any other Horde member were so shocked by what Sylvanas did to Derek in BfA when she was already doing those horrible things in Cataclysm.

[Nephys]

Well the most obvious one is that the Eredar originally corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around. I'm curious how you'll explain away that one since Metzen came out and said that it was a slip-up on his part.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Metzen_on_lore

Okay, you stuck me with the Eredar thing, you are right on that one. My point is, people on these forums are always screaming "retcon". Illidan is back? Retcon. Helm of Domination was not made by the Nathrezim? Retcon. Sylvanas is stronger than Bolvar? Retcon.

If we really look into the details, we can find inconsistencies, for example before Shadowlands Sylvanas demonstrated everywhere that she didn't want to be Warchief because she needed secrecy to execute her plans, and now it was always her plan to become Warchief. You can do that on every story, the best writers make less inconsistencies but wow's writers were never acused of being good. Yet people on this forums make it like its the end of the world, nothing matters and its impossible to discuss anything because they do whatever the hell they want with the previous lore, which is a straight up lie.

I have asked some people the same question I asked you, and in the end, its always their lack of knowledge instead of actual retcon.

[Varitok]

Do you know what the Bible is? Like, do you think it is canon or what? :3

The point of chronicle was supposed to be definitive WoW lore. It wasn't supposed to be some subversive one sided narrative because it's not even structured like one. It's structured objectively and even touches on things that happened long after the Titans death.

It was presented as such and when you use the term "bible" it's meant as like a compilation of all the lore and information about the universe of a given property. Such as the one Chris Avellone compiled while working on the original fallouts compiling all the background documents they had for the game to build a comprehensive text to refer back too. (Not that Bethesda gives a shit about continuity nowadays, or most companies for that matter)

[LuminaL]

MYTH CONFIRMED.

well done good sir or madam! you gave me a good genuine laugh. being proven wrong was never this good

[SirPaper]

In one of the Horde quests, there is a Forsaken who complains of a dark whisper, and in the book Storm Fury, the Forsaken and Sylvanas personally were exposed to the Nightmare.

Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions here, but this really confused me. Can someone clarify this for me?

[Soon-TM]

Okay, you stuck me with the Eredar thing, you are right on that one. My point is, people on these forums are always screaming "retcon". Illidan is back? Retcon. Helm of Domination was not made by the Nathrezim? Retcon. Sylvanas is stronger than Bolvar? Retcon.

Yep, all of them are actual retcons, the Eredar/Draenei one being the most egregious one.

[Wangming]

Okay, you stuck me with the Eredar thing, you are right on that one. My point is, people on these forums are always screaming "retcon". Illidan is back? Retcon. Helm of Domination was not made by the Nathrezim? Retcon. Sylvanas is stronger than Bolvar? Retcon.

If we really look into the details, we can find inconsistencies, for example before Shadowlands Sylvanas demonstrated everywhere that she didn't want to be Warchief because she needed secrecy to execute her plans, and now it was always her plan to become Warchief. You can do that on every story, the best writers make less inconsistencies but wow's writers were never acused of being good. Yet people on this forums make it like its the end of the world, nothing matters and its impossible to discuss anything because they do whatever the hell they want with the previous lore, which is a straight up lie.

I have asked some people the same question I asked you, and in the end, its always their lack of knowledge instead of actual retcon.

Son, you just listed the largest, most persistent and stupidest myth about the lore of Warcraft

Said myth: The lore was good at one point.

No it wasn't. It was a cliché storm at the best of times, but more often than not, it was a needlessly convoluted mess that was retconned, rewritten and clarified so often, not even that devs have any idea what the fuck is going on. Most people only woke up with BfA and wondering why the writing is weak.

[Powerogue]

Son, you just listed the largest, most persistent and stupidest myth about the lore of Warcraft

Said myth: The lore was good at one point.

No it wasn't. It was a cliché storm at the best of times, but more often than not, it was a needlessly convoluted mess that was retconned, rewritten and clarified so often, not even that devs have any idea what the fuck is going on. Most people only woke up with BfA and wondering why the writing is weak.

Before Chronicles I genuinely don't think they had any central source on their stories whatsoever internally and just rolled with what they could remember and maybe occasionally doublechecking wowpedia.



I like most of Legion but I still remember how the Legion pre-launch event randomly un-killed several people without explanation in Hillsbrad and other zones to serve as quest NPCs.

Oh and Neptulon randomly escaping his capture by giant squid. We see that thing again in Nazjatar so it's not like he killed it.

[Aeula]

High Elves left because the Blood Elves were sucking fel! - Never happened. Blood Elves didn't know about the fel in Kael's crystals.

ALL High Elves left because of mana tap! - One lodge, they're all dead now or missing.

[Paperfox]

Sometimes I think that lore is like spaghetti programming.

[Shinrael]

The point of chronicle was supposed to be definitive WoW lore. It wasn't supposed to be some subversive one sided narrative because it's not even structured like one. It's structured objectively and even touches on things that happened long after the Titans death.

It was presented as such and when you use the term "bible" it's meant as like a compilation of all the lore and information about the universe of a given property. Such as the one Chris Avellone compiled while working on the original fallouts compiling all the background documents they had for the game to build a comprehensive text to refer back too. (Not that Bethesda gives a shit about continuity nowadays, or most companies for that matter)

It is up to the person who compared Chronicle to the "Bible" to decide what meaning that comparison holds. It was Chris Metzen who did it and so neither of you can argue whether he meant it as "definitive lore" or as "a biased book that contains some true facts as well".

Like which of those is too early to tell if its not more than half its not majority.

And person loses his credibility among his peers if he keeps making theories which end up being wrong and had only 2 right ones as such after he kept making theories in legion which ended up being false he has lost all credibility.

No, it is speculation. He doesn't lose any credibility or anything. The entire point of his videos is to consider what infinite possibilities there are. Speculation for the sake of speculation. His fans watch him because they enjoy how he can make their "brains tremble". And my brain trembles even more when one of those crazy theories ends up true. That's all there is to it.

I'd say it is too early for all of them. His theories aren't white or black. They contain multiple points which connect to a deeper conclusion. Even if the final conclusion is different from the actual reality, some of his points still stand true. He just drew wrong conclusions based on them.

@Shinrael, the atheist, trying with all his might prove that the bible is wrong and is not cannon (lol), while at the same time praying and blindly believing in his true lord and savior Pyro. This thread is fun.

Infracted.

Not trying to prove anything wrong. I am basing myself off common sense.
And I am not atheist. Not at all. Atheists don't believe in any gods. Whereas I believe in a lot of things. And very strongly. I won't mention anything else here because that will simply get the thread closed.

And I am not "believing" or "praying" to Pyro. I see his theories. I like his theories. I agree with some of his theories. That's all there is to it.

[Nephys]

Yep, all of them are actual retcons, the Eredar/Draenei one being the most egregious one.

The Eredar is, but the others aren't. This is what I'm talking about, everyone screams retcon retcon, when in truth there are a lot fewer retcons than people scream. Illidan's story in Legion added more to what happened, and it kinda fits, the only weird thing was why would Illidan become the enemy of Shattrah, but TBC never tryed to make any sense to begin with. How did the Nathrezim build the Helm of Domination? Did any Dreadlord ever said they built it? Even if one did wouldn't make it so, we never knew why they were so proficient at buildint weapons and artifacts, its not a retcon if we never knew anything about it. Bolvar is not Arthas, and Sylvanas was able to fight and survive against Arthas on Wotlk, she was one of the few characters to face Arthas 1on1 and survive, not even Tyrion faced him 1on1. BFA is like 30 years after that, she had plenty of time to become stronger.

[DeltrusDisc]

About what is or isn't canon: there have been so many retcons that even that can't be answered for sure. What is canon today may very well not be canon tomorrow. Chronicles is a prime example of that: why would you write a series of books (which already retcon a lot of stuff) only to retcon them afterwards, as IIRC already happened? The "Chronicles is from the Titan's perspective" excuse is obviously just a way to both keep some lore paths open for the future and excuse any mistakes/retcons commited by the books.

Because of this fluid canon, discussing Warcraft lore has become increasingly frustrating, disappointing and also pretty much pointless.

Yep... I used to have a lot of fun debating it, thinking about it, talking about it, and teaching people lore as I simply loved it. I read every quest's text (and that's why I leveled so slowly...) and I just enjoyed the whole story-aspect of the game. Now everything feels like a joke. Sometimes Metzen really drove me nuts, but I feel like when he was in charge, lore was treated with a healthy dose of respect and retconned far less, almost as if he had a storyline in his head that was doing his best to stick to. Now it's like people forget or make mistakes like you say and no one bothers to say "hey, that wouldn't make sense because of X, Y, or Z." It's really a shame.

I think my first big disappointment with a lore development though... was when the Aspects said the Hour of Twilight had passed or whatever and the age of the Aspects was ended, Age of Humanity, end of Lord of the Rings ripoff, yada yada. I was like NO! This was only Deathwing's death, the OLD GODS ARE STILL VERY MUCH OUT THERE NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Also the game used to seem to have a lot more just hidden in mystery, especially pre-Cataclysm, but even post-Cataclysm had some still - take for instance the little faerie dragons that gather and sing and dance in Tirisfal Glades.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=51966/faerie-circle

I made a nice video of it too way back.



Simple nice things like this and back before it was explained away, it led simply to people wondering and thinking. That was nice. I wish Blizzard would leave some stuff alone. Not EVERYTHING has to be explained, or worse - changed. Anyways, rambling here, cheers

[Jinnobi]

It is up to the person who compared Chronicle to the "Bible" to decide what meaning that comparison holds. It was Chris Metzen who did it and so neither of you can argue whether he meant it as "definitive lore" or as "a biased book that contains some true facts as well".

You're complicating a simple statement. When someone who regularly speaks English is addressing an audience that also regularly speaks English and says, "This book is the Bible of X" they're saying that the book is the ultimate source of information about X. It's the final say. It's the most in-depth, comprehensive source that exists.

We all innately know what Metzen is trying to say. Your attempt to obfuscate a simple, common metaphor is sad.

@Shinrael, the atheist, trying with all his might prove that the bible is wrong and is not cannon (lol), while at the same time praying and blindly believing in his true lord and savior Pyro. This thread is fun.

Infracted.

--- snip ---

Mod Edit: Don't discuss topics forbidden by a Mod Warning.

Infracted.

[DemonHunter18]

the Chronicles will end up like RPG books in a few years.

that's not a myth but truth

[DeltrusDisc]

Do you know what the Bible is? Like, do you think it is canon or what? :3

--- snip ---

Mod Edit: Don't discuss topics forbidden by a Mod Warning.

Infracted.

- - - Updated - - -

That's like three tiers higher than most game dialogues. Just sayin'...

But yeah most of BfA's better dialogue is YA-tier. Which makes it better than almost all other expansions (and like 1000% better than all the writing in Cataclysm).

YA-tier? Can you explain what that is? I've read some of her books, but not sure I know what YA-tier means lol

[Shinrael]

--- snip ---

1) I already addressed people with the same reply as yours on the previous pages
2) How do you know what Metzen meant with it anyway ?