Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[cubby]

He said he'd veto if it came across his desk and then doubled down saying something along the lines of Medicare4All wouldn't fix the finacial problems. Which I believe it certainly would help a lot if implemented.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/bide...on-health.html

/snip Lil Jetty's video that he links, but doesn't believe

We just all adore how your *feels* somehow supersede professional law makers facts.

[NED funded]

Still not understanding what voter supression is, I'm not surprised.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...anders/608137/

Is that why Biden won where you could mail your vote and places where Bernke had won 4 years prior????

[Theodarzna]

Is that why Biden won where you could mail your vote and places where Bernke had won 4 years prior????

Bernie's mistake was trying way to hard to appeal to the Democratic Socialists of America's Libertarian Socialism crowd; which is another way of saying the kind of people who draw a lot of cringy Steven Universe fanart on Tumblr and bog down every meeting with "Points of Personal Privilege". That and he buckled on issues where he had crossover appeal. Like in 2016 when he correctly pointed out that Open Borders was a Koch Brothers/CATO institute idea but then by 2020, he had to appease the Ezra Kliens and Carlos Maza crowd. Heck he puss'd out on the Joe Rogan endorsement to placate these kvetching wokescolds.

I won't deny, Bernie Sanders as a campaigner makes a LOT of mistakes and doesn't have it in him to be the candidate for the moment. But on policy he is objectively superior to Biden's Neo-Liberalism.

[unfilteredJW]

There's some truth to this, but it's hardly universal. California is a great example.

There's vote-by-mail universally in CA, it's literally the only way I've ever vote since I was 18. You can very easily sign up to vote this way when you register, and there's ample information about access to it. So there's no "oh, but the poll lines were long!" excuse here, and there are TONS of activist groups in the state that get out to register folks. Some of which I've been involved with in the past.

But let's look at 2018 for a comparison, shall we? No voter suppression in CA reported, no evidence of any that I've seen for that election and what were the numbers like?

https://capitolweekly.net/california...o-the-numbers/



35% and 43%, hot damn! Those are very impressive number for those age demographics! But how do they compare to others?



Alright, so the 25-35 folks came real close to this, but it's around 40% higher participation than Sanders strongest crowd, the 18-24 folks.

Let's get a bit older now...



Well hell, participation for 65+ voters dropped, and was still nearly double the 18-25 demographic.

Don't get me wrong, voter suppression totally exists and is a problem. But that doesn't explain away the low participation for young voters. It provides some context for it, but there are still big pieces of the puzzle missing.

I notice how this was, unsurprisingly, ignored.

[Machismo]

It has nothing to do with allegiance to Bernie, that's what you all don't get. If it was, Bernie campaign for Hillary would have worked.

People are watching Family members, and those within their community being hospitalized, and Biden still wants to fly his plan that keeps 10 million people without health care.

No one attacked Elizabeth Warren, she doomed her own campaign twice by backtracking on her "Medicare Choice" or whatever she called her confluted technocratic 2 stage plan.

Warren doomed herself further when she alleged Bernie was a secret sexist on the debate stage. All based on some private conversation from 2 years ago. My mother is a BlueNoMatterWho democrat and always has been, and even she told me that disrespectful without me having to say word.

Warren doomed her own campaign, just like Hillary did. The sooner you all stop playing defense for failures the better. Bernie did mess up, both in 2016 and 2020, because he belived he could be a nice guy and the DNC wouldn't try and raise their personal pick over letting the electorate pick.

Lose again or win I will give Biden and the DNC credit, because that's really how elections work.

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The #1 policy issue among all Democratic voters is Medicare4All, Biden has doubled down saying he doesn't support it. Yet people will be surprised if his voter turn out is suppressed in a general election.

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Tulsi has already endorsed Biden. But still the smear appears. Hilarious.

Of course Bernie campaigning for Hillary wouldn't work, his supporters want only him. Since so many Bernie supporters swear they will vote for Trump, it's clearly not about issues.

[cubby]

Is that why Biden won where you could mail your vote and places where Bernke had won 4 years prior????

It's entirely interesting that Sanders' supporters are ignoring the demographic facts of the 2020 DNC Primary and are running on *feels* now in some destined-to-fail effort to prop up their candidate.

I cannot understand why they are doing this - and the personal attacks on Biden are baffling. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but when Sanders kicked the shit out of everyone in NV, I was getting my Bernie-or-Bust signs ready to go. I don't give a fuck who won the DNC Primary out of the contending candidates (alliteration is awesome - wait, wut - hold on...), I just want Trump to lose. It's fascinating to see Sanders' fans choose a different outcome.

[breadisfunny]

2016 was a totally different animal than 2020. The field of candidates narrowed much faster back in 2016.

Biden is more favourably viewed by independent and even GOP leaning voters than Hillary ever was.

why exactly does the dnc have to go after gop voters? i thought the whole point of having a seperate candidate was to have different viewpoints from the opposing party. if the dnc frontrunner just copies a lot of the gops viewpoints in an attempt to poach their voters doesn't that basically just turn the dnc candidate into a slightly less right leaning gop candidate? at that point why should any dnc voter who gives a damn about seeing any sort of economic reform bother voting for the frontrunner? (this isn't biden per se but the idea of trying to adopt gop policies.) i know i've pointed this out before but i still don't see what the point of this is other than trying to get trump out. which btw is doing so at the cost of your principals/reform goals since now your basically tied to those voters and can't really enact much policy changes if any since that would push them towards the 2024 rnc candidate.

[cubby]

why exactly does the dnc have to go after gop voters? i thought the whole point of having a seperate candidate was to have different viewpoints from the opposing party. if the dnc frontrunner just copies a lot of the gops viewpoints in an attempt to poach their voters doesn't that basically just turn the dnc candidate into a slightly less right leaning gop candidate? at that point why should any dnc voter who gives a damn about seeing any sort of economic reform bother voting for the frontrunner? (this isn't biden per se but the idea of trying to adopt gop policies.) i know i've pointed this out before but i still don't see what the point of this is other than trying to get trump out. which btw is doing so at the cost of your principals/reform goals since now your basically tied to those voters and can't really enact much policy changes if any since that would push them towards the 2024 rnc candidate.

The DNC is looking to flip the Obama--->Trump voters. That gets them the White House.

[breadisfunny]

Of course Bernie campaigning for Hillary wouldn't work, his supporters want only him. Since so many Bernie supporters swear they will vote for Trump, it's clearly not about issues.

no i want someone who will bring actual economic reform policies. biden doesn't look like he really cares about anything other than getting elected.

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The DNC is looking to flip the Obama--->Trump voters. That gets them the White House.

and not much else....sort of a pyrhic(sp?) victory of sorts.

[Edge-]

and not much else....sort of a pyrhic(sp?) victory of sorts.

Well, the DNC already orchestrated the takeback of the House. Senate remains a longshot, but there's every indication they'll hold the House.

So yeah, more. If you don't forget that the 2018 elections happened.

[cubby]

and not much else....

Does anything else matter right now?

I can't tell if you're being serious or just...wutever. Since I've been drinking heavily tonight, I gotta go with serious.

Do you even understand the significance of defeating Trump in the current political environment? With him gone we can repair the country, get us back to normal, and pursue progressive policies soonish.

Plus - the effort that goes into winning the White House will also help with specific Senate seats. It's odds-against that we'll flip it, but after the 2018 Blue Wave, who knows.

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Again, most like myself care about the policy. If Bernie didn't support them or if I thought he wouldn,t suport them then I wouldn't care about Bernie.

It didn,t work because Hillary campaign of Trump bad was pathetic, just like Biden's is starting to look. Pathetic.

It wont change me pressuring those elected who are against it or me supporting those who do support universal healthcare.

For Trump supporters, like you, it doesn't matter. You're just practice at this point. Pretending to back Sanders but pushing Biden away is the most intellectually bankrupt political position I've seen on these forums in awhile. It just goes to show your true motivations here. But hey, keep up the effort - Putin and the Trump Crime Family sure appreciate it.

[cubby]

It didn't work for the DNC in 2016, but Biden could pull it off using the same failed plan. I just don't see it working, and seems more like wishful thinking.

The irony of you bringing up wishful thinking - it's all you have to base your unfounded opinions upon. Biden is entirely different than Hillary. Not to mention we're in entirely different times. I hope Putin is paying you well....

[Machismo]

no i want someone who will bring actual economic reform policies. biden doesn't look like he really cares about anything other than getting elected.

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and not much else....sort of a pyrhic(sp?) victory of sorts.

Great, then dont vote for him. Just dont expect the DNC to pander to you.

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Again, most like myself care about the policy. If Bernie didn't support them or if I thought he wouldn,t suport them then I wouldn't care about Bernie.

It didn,t work because Hillary campaign of Trump bad was pathetic, just like Biden's is starting to look. Pathetic.

It wont change me pressuring those elected who are against it or me supporting those who do support universal healthcare.

The same as above.

[cubby]

no i want someone who will bring actual economic reform policies. biden doesn't look like he really cares about anything other than getting elected.

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and not much else....sort of a pyrhic(sp?) victory of sorts.

Even if that's true, isn't that all that matters right now? Do you want to roll the dice on "reform" or put all our effort into defeating Trump?
(and no - you can't do both at the same time)

[Theodarzna]

Again, most like myself care about the policy. If Bernie didn't support them or if I thought he wouldn,t suport them then I wouldn't care about Bernie.

It didn,t work because Hillary campaign of Trump bad was pathetic, just like Biden's is starting to look. Pathetic.

It wont change me pressuring those elected who are against it or me supporting those who do support universal healthcare.

They are making one nutball claim here.

Both that Sanders supporters are cultishly obsessed with Sanders, but not so obedient as to listen to him when he asked them to vote for Hillary, indeed as he went out to stump for Hillary his rallies dwindled down as nobody cared for a Hillary shilling rally.

So here we are again, were people who never gave a crap about Universal Health Care, even outright oppose it, are claiming Bernie voters are obsessed with the person and not the issues at hand, but at the same time ignore that Sanders voters didn't do as he said in 2016 and rally for Hillary.

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Well, the DNC already orchestrated the takeback of the House. Senate remains a longshot, but there's every indication they'll hold the House.

So yeah, more. If you don't forget that the 2018 elections happened.

Yes, and that has achieved what exactly? Where is our Universal Health Care? Where is well, any material results of that win? Much like the 2006 majority or the 2008 super majority its a pointless thing to have since the party doesn't enact these issues even when they have total power to do so.

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The DNC is looking to flip the Obama--->Trump voters. That gets them the White House.

And the same middling Centrism of 2016 that lost them in the first place will work how?

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Even if that's true, isn't that all that matters right now? Do you want to roll the dice on "reform" or put all our effort into defeating Trump?
(and no - you can't do both at the same time)

I'd have to ask why would that calculus work at all? Like; unless you have the docile comfort of subsisting off of Seth Myers takes, consuming every episode of the Racheal Maddow show, or just in general, unless you unironically were #WithHer, last go in 2016, why on Earth would now be the time you would vote for someone who represents no material benefit to your life, possibly even continuing its withering misery? What exactly is the cause for voting? Is better decorum and a chummy relationship with the White House press corp actually something a normal person is suppose to give a single damn about?

If defeating Trump achieves no material difference for the overwhelming number of people, than defeating Trump is totally pointless.

EDIT: And to be perfectly honest, this "Nothing fundamentally will change" tinkering around the edges schtick has gone stale. Especially now with COVID-19 shutting the world economy down for an unknown length of time and plunging us past Great Depression levels of employment in two weeks time with no end in sight to the free fall, you might be positively insane if you think Obamaisms, Micro-lending or a commercial jingled ad for third way market driven modest incrementalism will be at all adequate with that kind of shock, and given that sort of shit got us to a President Trump, I can't say for certain doing that won't lead to the next Trump but infinitely worse than this one.

[NED funded]

Bernie's mistake was trying way to hard to appeal to the Democratic Socialists of America's Libertarian Socialism crowd; which is another way of saying the kind of people who draw a lot of cringy Steven Universe fanart on Tumblr and bog down every meeting with "Points of Personal Privilege". That and he buckled on issues where he had crossover appeal. Like in 2016 when he correctly pointed out that Open Borders was a Koch Brothers/CATO institute idea but then by 2020, he had to appease the Ezra Kliens and Carlos Maza crowd. Heck he puss'd out on the Joe Rogan endorsement to placate these kvetching wokescolds.

I won't deny, Bernie Sanders as a campaigner makes a LOT of mistakes and doesn't have it in him to be the candidate for the moment. But on policy he is objectively superior to Biden's Neo-Liberalism.

The whole Koch Brothers proposal thing was a statement he made on a vox interview that I highly doubt most people that arent extremely online have watched.

This is some sad coping dude :/

[Theodarzna]

Biden and other Democrats blast Trump's health care rejection amid coronavirus

The Trump administration’s decision to not open a special enrollment period for the health care marketplace because of the coronavirus pandemic has garnered strong criticism from the Democratic Party.

A White House official told POLITICO that the Trump administration would be foregoing an SEP, and instead “exploring other options.”

Democratic presidential frontrunner Joe Biden criticized the decision.

“We’re in the middle of a global pandemic, and the Trump Administration is preventing people from getting health care,” the former Vice President tweeted. “I can’t believe this needs to be said, but President Trump needs to reopen Obamacare enrollment, and he needs to do it now. Lives are at stake.”

(source)

Reopening the Obamacare exchanges is not a good policy prescription or response. Why reopen the exchanges? For what reason? so people can buy insurance with money they don't have? We have what, 10mill+ unemployed right now and climbing, busting that Great Depression record easy. People with no jobs, no insurance, and no money, are going to buy and fork over what? Credit Card debt to pay the 2k a month premiums for their lackluster insurance?

Universal Healthcare Wins again.

[Edge-]

Yes, and that has achieved what exactly? Where is our Universal Health Care?

In your world, does the House of Representatives control the entire government via simple majority votes, writing, passing, and enforcing their own laws?

No? Because we live in the same reality where the House is but one half of the Legislative Branch, and has strong but limited authority limiting their ability to force any legislation, especially legislation that the other party would be opposed to, through the Senate if McConnell didn't want to touch it, much less the president to sign it? I mean, we live in a reality in which Mitch McConnell has bragged about being the grim reaper for Democratic legislation passed in the House, starting with HR1 which was their push for campaign and campaign finance reform.

I don't want to be shitty about this and I mean this as no insult, but that's an incredibly irrelevant, ignorant, and meaningless point to even bring up in this discussion. Deal with reality, not your perfect fiction.

What have they done? They've passed a fuckton of good legislation that McConnell has refused to even consider - https://www.vox.com/2019/5/24/186371...bills-congress

They've established oversight again and are starting to hold Trump administration officials accountable within their power, and take back some of the authorities that Paul Ryan had de-facto ceded to Trump during the previous House.

They successfully ended a government shutdown by Trump to try to force Congress to give him money for his "THE WALL", denying him the money he wanted which ended with him declaring the "national emergency" to take that money form the Pentagon - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/u...down-deal.html

They've not been perfect, but given the reality of our government right now and the open admission from Republicans in the Senate and White House that they have no interest in working with the House Democrats, I'd say they've done a pretty decent job.

Much like the 2006 majority or the 2008 super majority its a pointless thing to have since the party doesn't enact these issues even when they have total power to do so.

Well, the 2006 majority still had to deal with Bush. But let's look at 2008, and Wikipedia is a pretty good guide!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_...or_legislation

Lilly Ledbetter Act was solid, and something they'd failed to pass the previous Congress
CFPB was created, which was fuckin solid as hell. It's being neglected now thanks to Republicans, but it's an effective agency when run by competent people.
CARD act was pretty awesome as well, and a lot of what younger folks take for granted with their cards is thanks to this legislation
I also recall a LOT of people benefiting from the extended unemployment benefits in the WHBA Act (I'm just reading off this list and going by memory)
We also got the ACA which ,while a far cry from universal health care, was a pretty big leap forward for health care and protections, and has seen huge increases in popularity now that folks understand how nice it is to not get denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.
Dodd-Frank was great, even if it was short lived.
Fair Sentencing Act was a good step in the direction of criminal justice reform to address racial inequalities.
I dug that they repealed "don't ask, don't tell", which was big for a lot of people (on both sides of the issue)

So plenty of good stuff in there. Is it perfect? Fuck no. Did they miss the boat on a lot of shit and are there a lot of flaws in these bills? Fuck yeah. But overall, was it a pretty decent step in the right direction, even if much of the status quot that many of us hate remained? IMO, yeah.

Why don't you think so?

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Why reopen the exchanges? For what reason? so people can buy insurance with money they don't have?

If you are no/low income, you receive automatic subsidies, plus tax credits down the road. At least if you are in a state like CA that took the medicaid expansion, though I'm not 100% on if that's tied to that or not.

People with no jobs, no insurance, and no money, are going to buy and fork over what? Credit Card debt to pay the 2k a month premiums for their lackluster insurance?

There are a few solutions.

1. Temporarily suspend premiums/provide complete subsidies for unemployed individuals.
2. Fast-track the stimulus money which can be used to cover it.

Universal health care isn't coming tomorrow. It's not coming while this pandemic is going on. Re-opening the exchanges is a partial solution to an immediate problem, the problem of people potentially going without health insurance and not getting treatment they need if they're too scared to pay the bills.

You keep talking about your theoretical ideal that you want while you're probably covered by nice health care right now. Some folks are actually struggling and will take whatever help that they can get right now. The ivory tower view is nice though, isn't it?

[Milchshake]

Oh look, actual Dems always prefered Biden over Bernie.

How Anti-Dem online tastemakers misread History. In a chart:

[Theodarzna]

In your world, does the House of Representatives control the entire government via simple majority votes, writing, passing, and enforcing their own laws?

I'm going to stop you right there and ask who controlled the Senate, House and White House after the 2008 election?

Lilly Ledbetter Act was solid, and something they'd failed to pass the previous Congress
CFPB was created, which was fuckin solid as hell. It's being neglected now thanks to Republicans, but it's an effective agency when run by competent people.
CARD act was pretty awesome as well, and a lot of what younger folks take for granted with their cards is thanks to this legislation
I also recall a LOT of people benefiting from the extended unemployment benefits in the WHBA Act (I'm just reading off this list and going by memory)
We also got the ACA which ,while a far cry from universal health care, was a pretty big leap forward for health care and protections, and has seen huge increases in popularity now that folks understand how nice it is to not get denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.
Dodd-Frank was great, even if it was short lived.
Fair Sentencing Act was a good step in the direction of criminal justice reform to address racial inequalities.
I dug that they repealed "don't ask, don't tell", which was big for a lot of people (on both sides of the issue)

Lilly Ledbetter Act; So, with unrivaled power they passed a pay equality bill, though wage discrimination was already illegal it basically ended statute of limitations. Wow, inspiring. Also Wage discrimination was already illegal so vast power, for a token gesture.
CFPB was toothless, it was Toothless back then.
CARD Act is nice and all, but again, Is this it? This is the brand new day in America?
Dodd-Frank and Fair Sentencing Act are nice, granted Obama still let Citibank pick his cabinet and not a single banker was busted for fraud or wrong doing. Debtors were though.

So basically minor reforms are all they could achieve with unlimited power over the federal government and no Universal Health Care, no bankers were punished for 2008?

I guess I'm not easily impressed by any of this. Some of this was toothless within moments and lacked substance, one was basically just removing the statute of limitations on lawsuits so giving lawyers more jobs, woooo. On the substantive material shit affecting people Obama and his party did nothing and are now running a candidate who vows to veto doing anything even if it got to his desk and was the Senator for the Credit Card companies.

Heck, this party now is making a spirited defense of reopening the Obamacare Exchanges as a solution to the shock of our unprecedented unemployment claims and health crisis; ignoring that nobody has any money for health care. Of course Universal Healthcare being something you oppose, or don't care much for, I guess you are more into these bobbles and shiny policy wonk engineered toys that fiddle around some edges. I'm not particularly moved that unlimited power was given to a party and that is what they did with it.

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If you are no/low income, you receive automatic subsidies, plus tax credits down the road. At least if you are in a state like CA that took the medicaid expansion, though I'm not 100% on if that's tied to that or not.

I mean, sure many would newly qualify for fully subsidized plans.

Those things still have huge deductibles that effectively make them useless other than for preventive care, which nobody is getting right now because healthcare resources are all directed toward urgent/emergent care. Plus if you get COVID-19, you don't fall under that preventative care situation. Also Tax Credits? When? People are RIGHT NOW not paying rent or any bills and facing the very real prospect of homelessness in the next few days. So people will clamor for a subsidized plan that doesn't deal with this situation, and after they navigate a web a bureaucracy to get it set (And given we are talking 10 million plus people so far, the lines are going to be jammed and processing time overrun), they will still also come out with huge deductibles and out of pocket expenses if they actually GET Coronavirus or any other illness for which Hospitals have no time to deal with right now nor resources to.