WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Ssateneth]

I never had a problem with. Felt nice getting a bonus on something. People care way to much about what others are doing and getting in this game.

"felt nice getting a bonus on something". More like "felt awful not getting a bonus on something". Thats why I quit.

[Sammonoske]

I only somewhat miss TF is because Corruption ended up being much worse.

[Insaniam]

WoW’s current leader was an elitist jerk. It’s not really a surprise they decided to cater to the elitist snowflakes who wanted to be special and have the biggest numbers on their gear.

Tough luck, cause in doing so they’ve made 80% of the content in the game go from relevant to completely obsolete. Blizzard seems to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot to appease snowflakes

The irony.

Titanforging was a terrible idea, corruption is (hopefully) just a final iteration of hyper RNG on gearing before those kinds of systems disappear.
Warforging (+3/+6) wasn't really bad, in my opinion. I could've lived with that.

[Zka]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

This is 100% true word by word. TF hate is irrational and mostly spawns from greed and envy. It's just stupid.

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the main problem with WF & TF isn't that you can run LFR and get a really high level item - it's that people feel obligated with the need to run as many difficulties as they can just hoping for that elusive WF/TF bonus. which leads to player burnout - you don't want to have to run multiple difficulties every week just to hope to get a good item.

Who the hell farms LFR for an occasional TF proc? As a non-raider I haven't even entered LFR for gear once this expansion. I went there when it was mandatory for some quest to get 4K AP or whatever. Getting anything useful has way higher chance in m+ and it's fun, while LFR is just annoying.

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Criticism without providing alternatives is just whining.

What alternatives would you like to see described and why? OP obviously wants the TF system back, because it was better.

[MrLachyG]

Who the hell farms LFR for an occasional TF proc? As a non-raider I haven't even entered LFR for gear once this expansion. I went there when it was mandatory for some quest to get 4K AP or whatever. Getting anything useful has way higher chance in m+ and it's fun, while LFR is just annoying.

actual raiders? none of them would. but they would feel obligated to clear normal and heroic the first week then all three difficulties in the weeks after that for the TF drop. people should be able to play whatever difficulty they choose not be forced to do all three to keep up

[Relapses]

This is 100% true word by word. TF hate is irrational and mostly spawns from greed and envy. It's just stupid.

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Who the hell farms LFR for an occasional TF proc? As a non-raider I haven't even entered LFR for gear once this expansion. I went there when it was mandatory for some quest to get 4K AP or whatever. Getting anything useful has way higher chance in m+ and it's fun, while LFR is just annoying.

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What alternatives would you like to see described and why? OP obviously wants the TF system back, because it was better.

Greed and envy? Are you fucking serious? Can you not hate the system for being boring and unoriginal? Or do we have to prescribe to your contrived world view because your opinion is somehow the only thing in the universe that matters?

[kamuimac]

actual raiders? none of them would. but they would feel obligated to clear normal and heroic the first week then all three difficulties in the weeks after that for the TF drop. people should be able to play whatever difficulty they choose not be forced to do all three to keep up

people who clear multiple difficulties are definetly not "actual raiders"

people who you desribe are hardcore junkies who make maybe 1% of community

sadly they are extremly vocal here on forums. and blizzard for some bizare reason listens to them . and then end up with loosing milion of players like they did in WoD and like they are in 8.3

like always their pendulum swings to extremes. from maximum possible TF to garbage corruption . instead just go back to what worked best - aka VP gear and 4 levels of VP upgrades (MoP) combined maaaybe with +6 itlv WF. - that system worked . yes it was not perfect but it worked. Add to this buyable sockets and tertiary auguments maybe from proffesions (you know proffesion were once bread and butter of mmorpgs now they are usless) and viola - people have stuff to do . and system that doesnt piss of everyone. (Besides nolifing junkies who will claim that they "feel obliged" to farm it)

there was no reason to reinvent wheel yet they did because few people on forums complained that they "canot instantly use gear" .

[Zka]

Greed and envy? Are you fucking serious?

Yes, totally. Have you ever seen an anti-tf whinetopic? Almost all the time it is about some noob getting a great TF item which is sooo unjustified. That's envy. Or them not getting some of their important pieces TF'd, leading to e-peen size problems. That's greed. Or all these fuckin casuals looting mythic quality gear from trivial encounters. That's envy, peppered with some greed. All of my guildies who disliked TF also spoke about the first 2 things constantly.

Boring and unoriginal? Who the hell cares? The goal of TF system was to extend replayability and this goal was perfectly achieved without adding extra complexity to the game. Corruption system is a clusterfuck, does not fix any problems that TF had, but adds complexity. Most of the TF whiners have been shut up by it, I guess it was worth it.

[Relapses]

oring and unoriginal? Who the hell cares? The goal of TF system was to extend replayability and this goal was perfectly achieved without adding extra complexity to the game. Corruption system is a clusterfuck, does not fix any problems that TF had, but adds complexity. Most of the TF whiners have been shut up by it, I guess it was worth it.

The problem is that if an item rolled max-TF it was BiS in nearly 100% of situations. This gives the player zero choice. It is boring. It does not make the game more fun. It has nothing to do with envy or greed or whatever imaginary reasons you have for people "hating TF."

[Dread13]

Titanforging or anything along that line of RNG equipment is the worst-thing-ever in WoW. I'm glad they removed it for real. Now they need to remove the corruption stuff (that they already said it's not going to happen in shadowlands) and guess what OP, I expect we will have a DECENT loot system once in more than 4 years. Geez, was about time.

And about the fact of "people wouldn't do content if they can't get better equipment". My goal was always to get my BiS list and get my character as powerful as it could be in a given patch, and then focus in some other alters and playstyles. WoW is not about infinite grind festival, neither about "the one with better equipment is just lucky, not skilled", thanks.

[Raelbo]

Because once you reach over the base of the next difficulty you defeat the purpose of WF as a "scaling" mechanic as it was intended.It's to help you beat your current level and ease access for the next level, it's not meant to reward you with gear you haven't actually earned yet.

The intent was to provide a longer gearing curve regardless of what difficulty you're playing on or whether you intend to access the next level of content. And, in so doing, ensure that players didn't reach a point where they were no longer able to get any upgrades. I don't see how reaching over the base of the next difficulty has any bearing on this intent.

The philosophical change that seems to have been rejected by a number of players is that the difficulty you play on isn't what limits how powerful your gear can get, but rather how rapidly you progress in power towards that limit. The reason these players seem to reject the idea is that they fear that it will remove the distinction between different levels of play. The problem is that I don't believe, because there is no evidence thereof, that these objections have ever been properly scrutinised by those making them.

I honestly believe that the primary objections to TF have always been based on people's mathematical ineptitude because they fear something that is theoretically possible, but is actually impossible in reality. The model of TF allows all players to eventually reach BiS regardless of content difficulty, but over a time scale that is way out of the bounds of reality. In practice raid tiers are very much limited in time, and as such it is impossible for people to reach their theoretical gear cap in that time. And the lower the difficulty of content you are doing, the further you'll be from that cap. Thus people doing harder content will always have better (significantly better) gear than those relying on low probability TF procs.

Also I really think that people need to stop with this "you haven't earned that gear" nonsense already. Doing content - any content - earns you a chance at loot. It's that simple.

The more difficult the content, the better the gear you're likely to win. And over time, your ilevel will converge to the level you've "earned". So what if some LFR raider once in his life gets a mythic quality single piece of gear? That doesn't mean anything. It's an outlier with minimal impact on the overall outcome. What matters is how your gear looks collectively.

Lastly, I asked where the harm was. Interesting though this discourse has been, that wasn't even touched upon.

[kaminaris]

like always their pendulum swings to extremes. from maximum possible TF to garbage corruption . instead just go back to what worked best - aka VP gear and 4 levels of VP upgrades (MoP) combined maaaybe with +6 itlv WF. - that system worked . yes it was not perfect but it worked. Add to this buyable sockets and tertiary auguments maybe from proffesions (you know proffesion were once bread and butter of mmorpgs now they are usless) and viola - people have stuff to do . and system that doesnt piss of everyone. (Besides nolifing junkies who will claim that they "feel obliged" to farm it)

there was no reason to reinvent wheel yet they did because few people on forums complained that they "canot instantly use gear" .

"instead of just going back to [insert system that created a problem in first place]"

No, it didn't work.

Upgrades were simply a gear tax, it did not work.
Vendor gear did not work either since there is no sense of success and disappointment which makes it extremely boring.

[Revamp Man]

Gear can't be gear as long as M+ exists. If the only difference between raid gear and M+ gear is the item level itself, you may find M+ becoming predatory of raiders as they pursue the path of least resistance to get their BiS. (Using the current system as an example, a BiS player who only does M+ can get to 475 ilvl without too much of a struggle. Most Mythic raiders aren't a whole lot higher in item level.) A system like Corrupted gear at least helps an overlap between raiders and the M+ community to mutually benefit each other's existence. I'll be frank -- even though I've defended Corrupted gear conceptually, I recognize that it's not the best solution and I understand the problems people have with it. I personally feel like WoD had the best gear paradigm but WoD existed before M+ so it's a bit of a moot point.

Here's three hypothetical scenarios and +/-'s as I see them:

• A.) M+ is removed and Blizzard brings back the WoD gear system.
  
  Pros -
  
  It's the best system in my opinion.
  Blizzard can bring back ML too and I'll straight up Vince McMahon on the spot.
  
  Cons -
  
  MDI dies. M+ community dies. Lots of players are displaced. ANGRY FORUM POSTS.
  
  Conclusion: 0% likelihood.
  
  
• B.) Blizzard says fuck it and rolls out M+ and raid gear the same as it is now sans-Corrupted effects.
  
  Pros -
  
  GEAR IS GEAR.
  
  Cons -
  
  M+ may start to pick apart raid guilds as players begin to shift to the pathway of least resistance to achieve maximum player power.
  
  Conclusion: 10% likelihood.
  
  
• C.) Blizzard rolls out a system similar to the one we have now since it's already been proven to work.
  
  Pros -
  
  It works
  
  Cons -
  
  "TOO MUCH RNG" -every forum poster who doesn't like to think.
  
  Conclusion: Almost 100% likelihood.

They could surprise us and go an entirely new route, I've challenged players to think outside the box to attack the issue with different solutions and I've seen a few interesting ideas being thrown around ... we'll have to wait for the SL Alpha to find out.

If you take out the current corruption system but keep things like being able to purchase gym slots then I think that is a decent compromise

Heck I know a lot of people wouldn’t like this idea but don’t worry about mythic plus and don’t worry about reading and don’t worry about PVP just give players bass gear because each different place they’ll has unique weapons for example look at the dungeon loot with interesting facts and the differences between the trinkets for all three

Heck I know a lot of people wouldn’t like this idea but don’t worry about mythic plus and don’t worry about reading and don’t worry about PVP just give players base gear because each different place style has unique weapons for example look at the dungeon loot with interesting affects and the differences between the trinkets for all three Now have a currency similar to the echoes of what we have now and allow us to use that currency to add a gem socket or a tertiary stat

Boom do you now have gear that you can control

Get a really good set of braces and you won’t have to worry about replacing them because you get a weaker pair that just so happens to have a lucky Prock instead you can work to upgrade that piece of gear and have an endpoint

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"instead of just going back to [insert system that created a problem in first place]"

No, it didn't work.

Upgrades were simply a gear tax, it did not work.
Vendor gear did not work either since there is no sense of success and disappointment which makes it extremely boring.

Gear has been boring for years tight and forging did not fix that in fact taking forging only brought disappointment when you did not get a really high Prock piece of gear but blizzard fight tooth and nail to tell us that that system worked and we were enjoying it wrong just like every system in this expansion

Give us gear and give us a currency that we can use to upgrade it be adding just the gym socket a tertiary stat or heck even allow us to add a corruption affect

- - - Updated - - -

The intent was to provide a longer gearing curve regardless of what difficulty you're playing on or whether you intend to access the next level of content. And, in so doing, ensure that players didn't reach a point where they were no longer able to get any upgrades. I don't see how reaching over the base of the next difficulty has any bearing on this intent.

The philosophical change that seems to have been rejected by a number of players is that the difficulty you play on isn't what limits how powerful your gear can get, but rather how rapidly you progress in power towards that limit. The reason these players seem to reject the idea is that they fear that it will remove the distinction between different levels of play. The problem is that I don't believe, because there is no evidence thereof, that these objections have ever been properly scrutinised by those making them.

I honestly believe that the primary objections to TF have always been based on people's mathematical ineptitude because they fear something that is theoretically possible, but is actually impossible in reality. The model of TF allows all players to eventually reach BiS regardless of content difficulty, but over a time scale that is way out of the bounds of reality. In practice raid tiers are very much limited in time, and as such it is impossible for people to reach their theoretical gear cap in that time. And the lower the difficulty of content you are doing, the further you'll be from that cap. Thus people doing harder content will always have better (significantly better) gear than those relying on low probability TF procs.

Also I really think that people need to stop with this "you haven't earned that gear" nonsense already. Doing content - any content - earns you a chance at loot. It's that simple.

The more difficult the content, the better the gear you're likely to win. And over time, your ilevel will converge to the level you've "earned". So what if some LFR raider once in his life gets a mythic quality single piece of gear? That doesn't mean anything. It's an outlier with minimal impact on the overall outcome. What matters is how your gear looks collectively.

Lastly, I asked where the harm was. Interesting though this discourse has been, that wasn't even touched upon.

No it has been touched on you just refuse to see it because you can’t really argue against the points that are made

[Nerovar]

Classic case of flamebait-thread, OP makes a controversial first post to not show up through the entire thread afterwards.


And people take the bait, every time.

I mean, it doesn't really matter that OP doesn't stick around when there's lots of people who are more than willing to die on the same hill.

[kaminaris]

The problem is that if an item rolled max-TF it was BiS in nearly 100% of situations. This gives the player zero choice. It is boring. It does not make the game more fun. It has nothing to do with envy or greed or whatever imaginary reasons you have for people "hating TF."

You are wrong, completely wrong.
Rolling max TF did not make it Bis for all situations, since long time primary stat is actually the worst, secondary stats matters so much to the point of rivaling items minus 10 or even 15 ilvls.

And stop with that nonsense about being boring. It is more boring than corruption for sure but vast majority of complaints about TF/WF was:
- Envy (mommy lfr dude got mythic quality gear QQ)
- Jealousy
- Greed

Just because you didn't have a problem with it, doesn't mean its true for everyone.

For comparison I had half of my bags filled with gear with TF/WF, yes i did swap around since I was at haste breakpoint so without simming it was impossible to determine if item was upgrade or not.

Now I have bags full of gear because surging vitality is not so good for offspec, stars are not good on aoe, TD is not good on single or fights where i star far away and so on... it is getting ridiculous.

Major problem with corruption is:
1. Giving too much power to single item - this is most crucial issue with it
2. Gear being too complicated, way too complicated for average player
3. Bag clutter

So TF/WF was better system, it was more boring but it was still sensible.

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Gear has been boring for years tight and forging did not fix that in fact taking forging only brought disappointment when you did not get a really high Prock piece of gear but blizzard fight tooth and nail to tell us that that system worked and we were enjoying it wrong just like every system in this expansion

Give us gear and give us a currency that we can use to upgrade it be adding just the gym socket a tertiary stat or heck even allow us to add a corruption affect

Disappointment is exactly what gear needed. Without it, gear is super boring. Yes TF/WF did fix it.
That is also why PvP got their vendor removed because gear vendor idea is idiotic in first place. That pve got rng gearing path and pvp got a vendor. That is why PvP vendors will probably not return ever again.

Gear upgrades did not work, it is just a gear tax.

[Relapses]

You are wrong, completely wrong,

You are wrong, completely wrong.

edit: Just so it's clear that I'm not trolling. I don't care what your reasoning for defending WF/TFing being boring is. It's a shit system. It's dead. It's gone. No amount of trying to rationalize preferring a boring, terrible system will make it come back.

[Revamp Man]

You are wrong, completely wrong.
Rolling max TF did not make it Bis for all situations, since long time primary stat is actually the worst, secondary stats matters so much to the point of rivaling items minus 10 or even 15 ilvls.

And stop with that nonsense about being boring. It is more boring than corruption for sure but vast majority of complaints about TF/WF was:
- Envy (mommy lfr dude got mythic quality gear QQ)
- Jealousy
- Greed

Just because you didn't have a problem with it, doesn't mean its true for everyone.

For comparison I had half of my bags filled with gear with TF/WF, yes i did swap around since I was at haste breakpoint so without simming it was impossible to determine if item was upgrade or not.

Now I have bags full of gear because surging vitality is not so good for offspec, stars are not good on aoe, TD is not good on single or fights where i star far away and so on... it is getting ridiculous.

Major problem with corruption is:
1. Giving too much power to single item - this is most crucial issue with it
2. Gear being too complicated, way too complicated for average player
3. Bag clutter

So TF/WF was better system, it was more boring but it was still sensible.

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Disappointment is exactly what gear needed. Without it, gear is super boring. Yes TF/WF did fix it.
That is also why PvP got their vendor removed because gear vendor idea is idiotic in first place. That pve got rng gearing path and pvp got a vendor. That is why PvP vendors will probably not return ever again.

Gear upgrades did not work, it is just a gear tax.

In what world is feeling disappointed after you spent hours progressing on a boss with your friends and getting a piece of loot that is useless a good thing

In what game in what aspect is disappointment exciting outside of a casino

I like having control over my loot and having something like titan forging existing and the removal of PVP vendors took control out of my hand and a lot of changes that blizzard has made in this expansion at the beginning took control out of our hands and people did not like it

Blizzard agreed with your standpoint that disappointment was OK but the player base did not so we have seen the results

It seems like every change that they have announced in this patch is leading to more predictable loot in one way or another

Guaranteed corruption on the vision gear
Guaranteed corruption on the cache gear
Purchasable gem socket

Disappointing loot is garbage outside of Korean p2w garbage

[Cathululock]

WF/TF was not fine. It was an awful, terrible dumb fucking system that ruined two entire expansions. Good riddance.

this 100000%

[Vilendor]

"Finishing" my shaman by gearing her in full BiS during BC is one of my fondest memory in my WoW history

I still remember every item in every slot, most of them by name. I have no Fing clue what's on my character right now...

[Aphrel]

tbh, the only problem i see with the corruption system is that corruptions arent farmable.. the only place you can repetedly farm for high ilvl drops has fuckall of a procrate for corruption.

If they just change it so all sources has the same chance to corrupt, it would be fine. PLayers can zerg all the content they like for a week or two until they have their preferd corruptions for every situation and then be done for the patch.

Now we have the worst of two worlds, insanely powerful corruptions but no way to farm them so its jsut a weekly lottery from the m+ chest and the vision rewards...