WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Raelbo]

This is you trying to dress it up, and needlessly so, to the point where you're being utterly disingenuous.

So what part of what I said is inaccurate? Do you disagree that, when played out, the TF system results in a steady gear progression along an exponential path?

Or do you disagree with my assessment that people doing harder content are going to be significantly better geared than players doing easier content?

Calling it a lottery or slot machine implies that luck dictates the outcome (ie a character's ilevel). Which is patently false. It's false because the game is structured in such a way that statistics end up determining the outcome. The oft quoted scenario of LFR heroes outgearing Mythic raiders is a patent lie. It did not happen ever, nor could it (not realistically). The simple truth of the system is that players landed up with gear that was reflective of the content they were doing. Mythic raiders landed up with a distinct gear advantage over heroic raiders. Heroic raiders landed up ahead normal raiders. Normal raiders landed up ahead of LFR players. "Luck" had an effect in differentiating between players who had put in the same amount of effort, as has always been the case in this game.

The concept of RNG on top of RNG being somehow worse than just plain RNG is patently nonsense. RNG on top of RNG is still RNG.

What? Nobody said you did. I used the word, not you.

I've called it an endless gear progression time and time again because even though there is an end-goal, it's not realistically obtainable. You'd be endlessly chasing it.

You miss the whole point. The end-goal should never be to achieve BiS. That is precisely why they made it statistically impossible. The end-goal is for you to decide. So if you find yourself "endlessly chasing" some unobtainable goal, that's on you. Yet people choose to blame the game. That's exactly where the hate for TF really comes from - people who don't like taking responsibility for making their own choices and want the game to do it for them.

So every RPG game has a system on par with TF? WoW wasn't a "real RPG" until TF was added?

It's strange that you should ask that given what you quoted me as saying directly before it: " That doesn't mean that RPG games have to link progression to gear, but is certainly how WoW has done it"

Could a game without progression at all be called an RPG? I mean, I'd have a hard time saying otherwise, but that's not the argument.

That was the point I was making.

Prior to WF/TF, the progression still existed, it just wasn't endless (for that patch). That is why I said it's preference. Some people simply like the hurdle of reaching the absolute peak of it, which is something that's not as doable today without a considerable amount of luck.

If progression is an important element of an RPG then it follows reaching a point at which gear progression stops, means that the game has effectively lost that important element. WF/TF enhances the ability of the game to provide progression beyond where it used to traditionally stop. I am really not sure how else to present the logic of why this is objectively good for the game.

Post #247. I get it, nobody reads every reply, especially if they're not directed at you. That perfectly explains how it affects me and how minor I see that effect as. So consider it as context.

I read the post. It's what I initially replied to.

And it's fine that you don't see TF adding anything for you personally, but also I am not seeing much reason in there for why TF should be a problem to you. The only reason you give, and it's often quoted, is that players like to say that getting BiS is a goal that, once achieved gives them satisfaction. Hell I am not even going to deny that. What I will say though is that I think it's a poor reason. People chased BiS because it was a goal. It's what people do. We set ourselves goals, and if they're challenging or requirement some level of effort/skill/commitment to obtain, then we feel good about it. But just because you can no longer set the specific goal of getting BiS doesn't mean you can't set an equally meaningful goal. If anything WF/TF opens up more possibilities.

To summarize: As someone who liked to pursue BiS from simple boss drops, it now makes those same drops feel less worthwhile. It's no longer "I got the best piece for the patch". Instead, "it's nice, but could've been better".

No offence, and I really am not saying this to be insulting, but honestly, every single time I read this line of reasoning I just think it's incredibly immature and silly. It's like a child who opens a Christmas gift but isn't happy because it could have been something better. I am not denying that people do feel bad when they don't get the item they desire. What I am saying is that this isn't the game's fault - it's entirely on the player.

I don't know why you have such a hard time accepting that some people simply preferred a realistically obtainable BiS list over what we got. It's such a simple notion, but you're, seemingly, trying to do everything in your power to over-complicate it.

I am not having a hard time accepting that people simply preferred a realistically obtainable BiS. What I am saying is that they should grow up and get over it. I honestly believe that this is an issue of stubbornness and entitlement rather than a legitimate grievance.

Not every wants the endless carrot on a stick. Some do, and that's fine, but some don't, and that's also fine.

Funnily enough I never saw WF/TF as a carrot on a stick. I never felt compelled to do content I didn't enjoy in the pursuit of better gear. Maybe that's my problem. I get the intent behind WF/TF and I play the game it's meant to be played - do the content you like and trust that this will see your character progress accordingly.

The first and third point are perfectly fine approaches. Unfortunately for you, as a random on the internet, you don't get to decide that it's nonsense "just because I say so". You'll have to get over it, or live in delusion.

Endless treadmill I went into, which you couldn't counter.

You never presented any argument to support the assertion that WF/TF forces you onto this endless treadmill....but I do have a counter:

It's not an endless treadmill because you choose when to get off it whenever you want. That's really all there is to it. The fact that you can't reach an absolute gear cap in no way whatsoever compels anyone to keep pushing for it.

The game gives us content, and in order to beat that content we need gear. But once you have sufficiently good gear to beat the content, that's where the game stops being an active pusher of the treadmill. And it has always been the case that you can get good enough gear without having to pursue WF/TF endlessly.

Obviously, if you're a player who wants to keep pushing for better gear endlessly, the game will accommodate that. But there's a world of difference between the game allowing players to chase such an objective (good for the game) and forcing them to do so even if they have real desire to do so (bad for the game).

Giving people gear they haven't earned, while the complaint is not something I really agree with, it's still perfectly within their right to dislike the idea of giving good gear for low tier content.

I touched on this in one of my earlier posts (#325). It's not that I disagree with the notion that people shouldn't be given gear that they haven't earned. I disagree with the notion that getting a TF results in people getting gear that they haven't earned. And key to understanding my argument is understand the distinction between gear and a piece of gear. Gear is not defined by a single lucky drop. It's defined by the sum total of all your pieces of gear.

The fundamental flaw in the "getting a mythic piece from LFR isn't earned" argument is that it fails to take a whole view of the situation. Because, yes, getting a TF mythic level piece from LFR is disproportionate to the loot that is typically earned from LFR, but critically, one piece of gear is not what determines the value of your gear. Try stepping into any high end content wearing a bunch of levelling greens with one piece of BiS. It's not going to help you. What matters is your collective gear. Yes, anyone could step into LFR once and win the "lottery" by getting an awesome piece of gear. But for it to actually be worth something it would require them to get other good gear. And once you start looking at overall gear, and what it takes to get a certain ilevel, then the statistics pretty much ensure that people land up with exactly the gear they have earned.

This is again, a preference based complaint. You do not have any right to tell someone they can't prefer it differently. And that's not directed to just the pro TF players. It's also directed to the ones from anti-TF who do the same, pretend that everyone has to agree with them.

I really don't know why you can't accept the idea that different people prefer different things. You seem so pigeonholed into making people like certain things, that your stance is ultimately suffering because of it. But sure, keep coming up with these mental jumping jacks rather than simply admit the obvious.

Who says that I don't accept the idea the idea that different people prefer different things? What I tried to convey was the fact that the arguments people make against TF don't really have much to do with actual preferences, and more to do with the false projection of other issues (which often do emanate from preferences) onto WF/TF.

For example, the desire to not get onto an endless gear grind treadmill is a preference. So they'll claim that they have a preference for not having a TF/WF in the game, because in their minds they have equated the two things. Except they're not the same thing. So their claimed preference for getting rid of TF/WF is not an actual preference at all, but rather a proxy for what their actual preference is.

In the end, predictably, they got rid of TF but it didn't really make people any happier. Why? Because it didn't change anything that affected their actual preferences.

[united]

You're 100% correct, it's really annoying that a few immature "adults" that couldn't handle seeing a casual with one piece of titanforged gear screwed things up for the rest of us.

[Raelbo]

What about the fact most players are driven by finding ilvl upgrades and could easily outgrow the content suitable to their skill level?

Please state the problem and how it relates to WF/TF.

What about the fact that if you don’t wanna have a mediocre character you had to do things like farm world bosses which existed in legion

This is not a fact. Yes I know exactly what you're talking about: Getting the latest TF version of Arcanocrystal from Withered J'im. No one was forced to do it ad infinitum simply to avoid being mediocre. In actual fact most people farming him every cycle didn't ever get to see that fantastic trinket TF to the max and they did just fine without it.

The loot trading system is shit but the problem was compounded by titanforging

The loot trading system was necessitated by toxic player behaviour directly linked to the ML system spanning more than a decade. You haven't done anything to establish how TF has any responsibility for how that played out.

I had over a dozen wasted drops last tier yet this tier not so much

Keep raiding then. You'll soon have loads of wasted drops.

Also I think people need to stop acting so entitled about being able to trade away your gear...

[MidnyteTV]

The whiners in this game ruin everything.

Legion Legendaries were fine.

WF/TF was fine. LIke I said, players want things handed to them.

[Relapses]

i work in somewhat same business as Blizz since 20 years and in my oppinion this is just an unbelievable stupid and foremost naive mindset. but in reality i should be happy about that, because with ppl like you we make good profits. and Blizz also, i assume. but this is just my opinion. so, everyone to his own. this is your opinion and your mindset, and this is totally fine.

No, you do not run a multi-million subscriber MMO so please fuck right off with this "I work in a similar field" bullshit because at best you're grossly exaggerating the purpose of your job and at worst you're just being plain disingenuous. I am asking people to THINK about the purpose of systems like WF/TFing and Corrupted gear before saying one is better or worse than the other. Arguing that something in a subscription service is a retention mechanism is a very boring, uncreative and cynical observation since you can use the same reductive logic to apply to nearly every feature Blizzard does or doesn't add to the game. It doesn't mean I don't think Blizzard does add certain features for the sole intention of subscriber retention (see: WoW Classic); simply that saying as much deflects the conversation away from a more reasonable argument which covers the more salient reasons such a feature needs to exist.

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The whiners in this game ruin everything.

Legion Legendaries were fine.

WF/TF was fine. LIke I said, players want things handed to them.

Yeah it's totally fine to wait the length of an entire expansion to get a piece of gameplay altering gear. RNG is fine. RNG being attached to items that are more powerful than anything else in the game is not. This is the main issue with Corrupted gear though it has been somewhat stymied by the introduction of a deterministic reward from Visions.

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Nope, you are wrong. If you don't care about reasoning then it's a clear evidence. I hope blizzard will bring it back.

The official word from Ion is that he's happy about how Corrupted gear played out "in a world without WF/TF'ing." I would say this wording makes it sound like the system is gone for good. You can keep defending uncreative, boring game design but you're on the wrong side of this argument.

[Kokolums]

i didnt mind WF / TF. but im pretty certain because people whined about it, they removed WF / TF and replaced it with corrupted gear which is VERY annoying and unfun. so now i hate the people who whined about WF / TF.

[MidnyteTV]

If you played the game you got a leggie every 3-4 weeks. If you didn't have our BiS leggie by Nighthold you didn't play the game enough and didn't earn it.

Without the leggie you wanted, if you didn't do enough damage you sucked anyways.

Blizz had to try something new, because all players ever did was whine about grinds. And they had to just mix it up. Was it perfect? No. But it was certainly playable if you, once again, played the game. Because, you know, it's an MMO and the players that play the most tend to get the most out of it.

Don't worry, they're rolling it all back in Shadowlands, and you will still find ways to complain.

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i didnt mind WF / TF. but im pretty certain because people whined about it, they removed WF / TF and replaced it with corrupted gear which is VERY annoying and unfun. so now i hate the people who whined about WF / TF.

Pretty much this. Corrupted gear isn't great. But WF/TF wasn't all that bad. Just another meme that got out of hand. WoW players are the worst.

[Lime]

Read the bottom first.

The concept of RNG on top of RNG being somehow worse than just plain RNG is patently nonsense. RNG on top of RNG is still RNG.

Your notion doesn't make sense. Saying RNG on top of RNG can't be worse than plain RNG is akin to saying that genocide isn't as bad as trespassing because "they're both crimes". Why is a player liking a simple drop system, but not a drop system in conjunction with with an additional layer of RNG, such a nonsensical preference in your eyes?

Calling it a lottery or slot machine implies that luck dictates the outcome

Are you under the impression that you can force BiS TF? You'd be horribly wrong, and obviously so, so what are you really trying to say here?

The oft quoted scenario of LFR heroes outgearing Mythic raiders is a patent lie. It did not happen ever, nor could it (not realistically).

That's not my argument, so stop. I specially said that the notion of LFR players outgearing Mythic players isn't a valid argument... There's no reason for you to be bringing this up in response to my post.

You miss the whole point. The end-goal should never be to achieve BiS. That is precisely why they made it statistically impossible. The end-goal is for you to decide. So if you find yourself "endlessly chasing" some unobtainable goal, that's on you. Yet people choose to blame the game. That's exactly where the hate for TF really comes from - people who don't like taking responsibility for making their own choices and want the game to do it for them.

Ah yes, more of the "you like the game my way or you don't actually like it".

That was the point I was making.

You tried pretending that a game isn't an RPG unless it has continuous progression like TF. Then you replaced your argument with "RPGs have progression", which is a completely different statement.

But it's an odd point regardless. By that logic, there's no such thing as an RPG in your eyes. Every RPG hits the point where you'll stop progressing, if given time to, especially non-mmos at a far more rapid rate.

If progression is an important element of an RPG then it follows reaching a point at which gear progression stops, means that the game has effectively lost that important element.

It doesn't stop permanently, though. It goes on hold. It resumes in the next patch. It's that obtainable peak that some players like. That peak was forever removed with the existence of TF, outside of extremities.

No offence, and I really am not saying this to be insulting, but honestly, every single time I read this line of reasoning I just think it's incredibly immature and silly. It's like a child who opens a Christmas gift but isn't happy because it could have been something better. I am not denying that people do feel bad when they don't get the item they desire. What I am saying is that this isn't the game's fault - it's entirely on the player.

No matter how much gets twisted, it doesn't matter who is at fault. The end result is that a player who prefers something lost what they preferred. Obviously, there are those who prefer a BiS to be as simple as a standard boss drop rather than having to kill that boss a hundred/thousand more times hoping that it drops 'the best' gear.

A lot of problems come down to the player. Are they suddenly invalidated because an issue came down to what someone preferred? I'd hope nobody would ever say yes to that.

What I am saying is that they should grow up and get over it.

I could say the same about people who have an issue with someone preferring a previous system. And well, I did, actually. lol. There's really no harm in someone preferring it how it was. You may not like the old model. You may see the harm in the old model vs TF. But the adult thing is to acknowledge that one side has to take an L, but they don't have to be super happy about it.

You keep saying that you're fine with people preferring it a different way, but then you turn around and talk down to them for preferring it... a different way.

You never presented any argument to support the assertion that WF/TF forces you onto this endless treadmill

Your use of 'force' is typically forum-bait. I also never said anything about forcing, because of that. But sure, let's dot the i's and cross the t's and get into it.

It's easy to see it as not being forced. That said, it is forced under certain circumstances. Case in point: If you want BiS, you are forced onto the endless treadmill.

This is different from saying that you're forced to endlessly look for upgrades. It is an option, but should you choose the option to pursue BiS, you will be forced to deal with it. This is not something you were forced into before if you were seeking BiS. And that is something I went in to.

I disagree with the notion that getting a TF results in people getting gear that they haven't earned. And key to understanding my argument is understand the distinction between gear and a piece of gear. Gear is not defined by a single lucky drop. It's defined by the sum total of all your pieces of gear.

The fundamental flaw in the "getting a mythic piece from LFR isn't earned" argument is that it fails to take a whole view of the situation. Because, yes, getting a TF mythic level piece from LFR is disproportionate to the loot that is typically earned from LFR, but critically, one piece of gear is not what determines the value of your gear.

Okay, so I see your distinction, but I still I don't think I agree. I agree with some of the supporting points you make, but I disagree that you can write off the complaint based off: "The fundamental flaw in the "getting a mythic piece from LFR isn't earned" argument is that it fails to take a whole view of the situation. Because, yes, getting a TF mythic level piece from LFR is disproportionate to the loot that is typically earned from LFR, but critically, one piece of gear is not what determines the value of your gear.".

That argument solely writes off people who don't like it because they think it gives low-tier players an edge over good players, simply by being lucky.

But what's wrong with someone not liking they don't deserve the piece regardless? Sure, does it seem like an asshole thing to say? Yeah, but why isn't a person allowed to value the gear as they do, where they only want it to drop from hard content? Here, let me give a similar situation that I can relate to:

I've been very vocal that I'm against the removal of content, in any capacity. I think it's only supported by players who overvalue pixels and see self-worth in a video game, so they deny it from other players.

Seems pretty out there, huh? I don't think I'd ever say, or even imply, that they're nonsensical for wanting it. Hell, the reason is as clear as day, but I just heavily disagree with it, which is different.

I just think you're too quick to write people off as nonsensical, is all. What I see are just differences in preferences.

Who says that I don't accept the idea the idea that different people prefer different things?

As I pointed out a bit above, I'm just getting very mixed messages.

What I tried to convey was the fact that the arguments people make against TF don't really have much to do with actual preferences, and more to do with the false projection of other issues (which often do emanate from preferences) onto WF/TF.

For example, the desire to not get onto an endless gear grind treadmill is a preference. So they'll claim that they have a preference for not having a TF/WF in the game, because in their minds they have equated the two things. Except they're not the same thing. So their claimed preference for getting rid of TF/WF is not an actual preference at all, but rather a proxy for what their actual preference is.

In the end, predictably, they got rid of TF but it didn't really make people any happier. Why? Because it didn't change anything that affected their actual preferences.

A few things here:

- To be fair, they replaced it with another system that did the same thing wrong in their eyes. So of course it wouldn't make them happier.
- From my experience, you're right that it wouldn't make them (much) happier. I could probably equate a tiny bit of happiness to the removal of TF-like system, but extremely minor all the same. Again though, that's just my experience, someone could feel much more strongly about it.
- I disagree with everything you actually said in regards to it not being about preference. I'm just not seeing where you're coming from.

These posts are getting really long. I wanted to get an idea about your standpoint, and I feel like I've gotten that (so mission accomplished basically), but I really can't be bothered with these long responses anymore. I don't see myself continuing this. About the mixed messages, I would like some clarification on that, but I really don't care about the rest all that much anymore. But if you feel the need to clarify or continue any other point, I will read it all the same.

[[Apok]]

Pretty much this. Corrupted gear isn't great. But WF/TF wasn't all that bad. Just another meme that got out of hand. WoW players are the worst.

It being not all that bad doesn't mean it can't be improved

[kamuimac]

Yes because without Titanforging he cant outgear the content of the game and he'll never be able to do it. This is why these bad player wants Titanforging. It's like playing with cheat codes.

"Oh you're not good enough to kill this boss? Don't worry. You don't have to improve and become better at the game. You'll just get all this gear (which you've done nothing to deserve) so you can ignore mechanics and beat the content."

and this is what is wrong with wow nowadays.

the whole concept of morpgs is that you get levels and gear that let you kill bosses easier. to the point that you anilihilate them

what you and people you alike want is not mmorpg - you want some bizzare hybrid of dark souls/frogger/instance lobby based game

this is why in wrath 12 mln played game and now barely 1 mln plays .

WoW is no longer mmorpg when it comes to raiding.

[GucciWarr]

God y’all are boring kill a fucking boss you wankers

[MidnyteTV]

It being not all that bad doesn't mean it can't be improved

I agree. I think it should have been capped at like +10 ilvls. THat way there was a clear end goal that was attainable. Because during MoP, Blizz saw the data that showed that players werent farming raids anymore, because they got all the gear they needed from valor and just a couple weeks. So they had to do something ot get you back in there. It's an MMO.

[[Apok]]

I agree. I think it should have been capped at like +10 ilvls. THat way there was a clear end goal that was attainable. Because during MoP, Blizz saw the data that showed that players werent farming raids anymore, because they got all the gear they needed from valor and just a couple weeks. So they had to do something ot get you back in there. It's an MMO.

Personally, a currency even if it's a low drop rate and takes you a considerable time investment to acquire would be the way to go.

It satisfies both crowds, you can only attain a certain amount of currency each week. Blizzards design direction doesn't seem to have a defined goal other than to seemingly satisfy their shareholders, who don't seem to understanf the market, making everything depend upon layers of rng doesn't really give a player incentive to continue playing but leads to frustration and burnout.

I've seen the various iterations over the years and none has ever been " spot on".

[Charge me Doctor]

Are you really sure you don't give a fuck about gear? You don't sound like a guy/girl who doesn't give a fuck about gear lol.

Static loot might be boring for you but not for others the same with WF/TF. WF/TF is boring to me because it gives the same loot with better stats, for me and other thats boring. You do have a point with static gear which means you can be fully geared if you are lucky with gear drops and for some (like you) that's an issue. I don't think there will be a way to please both sides so Blizz has to choose a side I guess.

You may be not concerned about it being an issue, but when your top DPS DK you was funneling gear to gets his pyrite infuser as last bis piece and types "/raid k guys i'm done with ulduar thanks everyone" during your HM progression, you'll find it concerning.

I know it's hard to imagine since this forum is full of pugmaster9000 players who can't be arsed about it, but various "gearing up" mechanics were made to make average guild life easier, and they were kinda good at that.

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Personally, a currency even if it's a low drop rate and takes you a considerable time investment to acquire would be the way to go.

Lets be fair here, random upgrade is more fun than "in two weeks i'll get +10ilvl on my bow!". Like, seriously, remember when you've got some crazy TFed item and how good it felt, then remember when you finished 10th vision to get a gemslot into an item

[Kaver]

the whole concept of morpgs is that you get levels and gear that let you kill bosses easier. to the point that you anilihilate them

Yes but you have to beat the content at least once first. You get standard heroic gear so you can beat mythic bosses. Then you get mythic gear as a reward for killing the mythic bosses which makes those boss even easier when they are on farm. But you need to kill the mythic bosses first to get the mythic gear. That's the reward for progression. You shouldn't get the mythic gear long before you set your foot in the mythic raid.

[Charge me Doctor]

Yes but you have to beat the content at least once first. You get standard heroic gear so you can beat mythic bosses. Then you get mythic gear as a reward for killing the mythic bosses which makes those boss even easier when they are on farm. But you need to kill the mythic bosses first to get the mythic gear. That's the reward for progression. You shouldn't get the mythic gear long before you set your foot in the mythic raid.

In general, having players slowly grind up their power is more fun to players than waiting for a wave of nerfs

[RagingJizz]

How was it a good system when a pleb in LFR could get a better item than a mythic raider

[Kaver]

In general, having players slowly grind up their power is more fun to players than waiting for a wave of nerfs

What about putting in effort or becoming better at the game? You shouldn't need neither nerf or outgearing to progress. Gear/power progression should be based on you actually doing harder content. The gear should come after not before.

[Charge me Doctor]

What about putting in effort or becoming better at the game? You shouldn't need neither nerf or outgearing to progress. Gear/power progression should be based on you actually doing harder content. The gear should come after not before.

If you progressed mythic it's rarely comes down to "becoming better at the game" (unless you consider smashing your head against the wall in attempts to get all DPS get lucky crits and procs for that sweet, sweet ±5% raid DPS spread, or for some raid mechanic to trigger on a spec that can easily handle it couple of times in a row "becoming better at the game"), it's more about having proper specs geared up (split runs, poaching, recruiting, having a healthy bench in general) and sometimes some cheesy strategy if you don't want to wait for a nerf. It just puts a lot of stress on your raiding group instead of not putting that stress.

I guess there are cases of regular heroic progressing guild that attempts early mythic bosses, where people are expected to not know stuff, but i doubt that it'll give them a lot of initiative to keep those attempts going if they won't get gradual power increase to overcome these obstacles.

Also it will ruin pug world, because most pug raids expect you to overgear content.

[Kaver]

If you progressed mythic it's rarely comes down to "becoming better at the game" (unless you consider smashing your head against the wall in attempts to get all DPS get lucky crits and procs for that sweet, sweet ±5% raid DPS spread, or for some raid mechanic to trigger on a spec that can easily handle it couple of times in a row "becoming better at the game"), it's more about having proper specs geared up (split runs, poaching, recruiting, having a healthy bench in general) and sometimes some cheesy strategy if you don't want to wait for a nerf. It just puts a lot of stress on your raiding group instead of not putting that stress.

What are you talking about... when you wipe 100 times on a mythic progression boss and then kill it, you became better during those 100 tries and that's why you killed the boss. This is what progression should be. You kill the boss because you learn the mechanics. Not because you outgear it.

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Also it will ruin pug world, because most pug raids expect you to overgear content.

One of the reasons why the pug world suck so much is because of outgearing. You have a lot of players who are completely shit at the game and can only beat heroic bosses because they go into the raid with mythic grade gear. This is bad for the game. Players will never become better and learn about mechanics if they always outgear the content they play.