WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Recovery]

those are the people who dont want to play game.

those are people who only want to log in once a week , clear raid and log off

sadly blizzard is catering to those people just like in WoD

and resoults will be exackly like in WoD,

they have to be mad if they think that normal players will farm coruptions with 1/52 chance to get anything decent and then farm cloak to get resistance.

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ye but sockets are not enough.

people should be able to farm everything - itlv upgrade , sockets and tertiary stats by doing their usual activities.

but sadly because raiders would complain that "they have to do it " it will never happen.

ITS NOT ONLY RAIDERS. Its PVP players as well.. We have 3 different systems that are completely necessary for PVP and theyre largely obtained from content we DONT want to do AT ALL.

[Demithio]

Wuts WF/TF? this game is so confusing now.

[[Apok]]

You may be not concerned about it being an issue, but when your top DPS DK you was funneling gear to gets his pyrite infuser as last bis piece and types "/raid k guys i'm done with ulduar thanks everyone" during your HM progression, you'll find it concerning.

I know it's hard to imagine since this forum is full of pugmaster9000 players who can't be arsed about it, but various "gearing up" mechanics were made to make average guild life easier, and they were kinda good at that.

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Lets be fair here, random upgrade is more fun than "in two weeks i'll get +10ilvl on my bow!". Like, seriously, remember when you've got some crazy TFed item and how good it felt, then remember when you finished 10th vision to get a gemslot into an item

Of course a random upgrade is more fun but the issue with current incarnations of the system are that it's no fun at all to get a drop, it not be an upgrade despite the fact it should be or for a massive power upgrade to be so reliant on rng.

I'd rather know that either way i could potentially get that item within a certain amount of time rather than being solely reliant on rng.


I do alot of pugging simply because sometimes i can't sleep due to a variety of reasons and i don't mind helping or carrying people aslong as it's on my terms, i don't understand the mindset that alot of people (Appears anecdotal as it's my personal experience) expect to be carried or are content at performing poorly.
I don't think this is a result of the making available to content as ther were always players tht have been carried for various reasons.

[Shaetha]

What alternatives would you like to see described and why? OP obviously wants the TF system back, because it was better.

I had to say that for my post to not be hypocritical.

The point of my response was that criticism without providing alternatives was whining, and that whiners have ruined everything, not just WoW. The line you quoted was my provided alternative to whining, and/or my way of saying how to criticize in a way that wasn't just whining.

[Niwes]

No, you do not run a multi-million subscriber MMO so please fuck right off with this "I work in a similar field" bullshit because at best you're grossly exaggerating the purpose of your job and at worst you're just being plain disingenuous. I am asking people to THINK about the purpose of systems like WF/TFing and Corrupted gear before saying one is better or worse than the other. Arguing that something in a subscription service is a retention mechanism is a very boring, uncreative and cynical observation since you can use the same reductive logic to apply to nearly every feature Blizzard does or doesn't add to the game. It doesn't mean I don't think Blizzard does add certain features for the sole intention of subscriber retention (see: WoW Classic); simply that saying as much deflects the conversation away from a more reasonable argument which covers the more salient reasons such a feature needs to exist.

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Yeah it's totally fine to wait the length of an entire expansion to get a piece of gameplay altering gear. RNG is fine. RNG being attached to items that are more powerful than anything else in the game is not. This is the main issue with Corrupted gear though it has been somewhat stymied by the introduction of a deterministic reward from Visions.

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The official word from Ion is that he's happy about how Corrupted gear played out "in a world without WF/TF'ing." I would say this wording makes it sound like the system is gone for good. You can keep defending uncreative, boring game design but you're on the wrong side of this argument.

ok. nothing further to discuss here.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

early on in BfA before i bounced i was able to keep up with my mythic raider friends in overall gear rating and damage simply by doing a 10 key once a week and a little luck from below 10 keys.

it was a lot of fun for me, but just for me. i honestly felt like a scuzz bucket doing equal or better numbers than those guys. i have to agree, it will be better for the game now that Tf Wf is gone.

[kaminaris]

Yes because without Titanforging he cant outgear the content of the game and he'll never be able to do it. This is why these bad player wants Titanforging. It's like playing with cheat codes.

"Oh you're not good enough to kill this boss? Don't worry. You don't have to improve and become better at the game. You'll just get all this gear (which you've done nothing to deserve) so you can ignore mechanics and beat the content."

I have about 10 or 11 cutting edges so far, first one in MoP. Try again. Titanforging did not exist in two expansions i was most active with and in top 200 guild doing orange 98+ parses.

And no, i did not step down because of titanforging. I stepped down because I simply dont want to spend too much time on wow.

[Relapses]

If you played the game you got a leggie every 3-4 weeks. If you didn't have our BiS leggie by Nighthold you didn't play the game enough and didn't earn it.

Without the leggie you wanted, if you didn't do enough damage you sucked anyways.

Blizz had to try something new, because all players ever did was whine about grinds. And they had to just mix it up. Was it perfect? No. But it was certainly playable if you, once again, played the game. Because, you know, it's an MMO and the players that play the most tend to get the most out of it.

Don't worry, they're rolling it all back in Shadowlands, and you will still find ways to complain.

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Pretty much this. Corrupted gear isn't great. But WF/TF wasn't all that bad. Just another meme that got out of hand. WoW players are the worst.

Don't blame players for the developers making decisions on their own volition. If a game developer feels a certain feature can be improved they're entirely within reason to try new ideas to change the meta. Players love to blame each other later for having opinions which vary from their own but in interviews post-Corrupted gear's implementation you can tell the developers themselves did not particularly care for the WF/TFing system and generally view the experiment in a positive light.

[Volatilis]

Wuts WF/TF? this game is so confusing now.

warforged/titanforged.

Aka random chance for items to increase in Ilvl by 5-10ilvl for warforge and like up to 50? I think for titanforge.

[Xath]

You're 100% correct, it's really annoying that a few immature "adults" that couldn't handle seeing a casual with one piece of titanforged gear screwed things up for the rest of us.

I don't care about the gear others have the annoying thing was if a mythic ilvl piece drops it should be bis depending on stats. I shouldn't have to pray for random sockets or forging. Especially for weapons it completely screwed up logging which is what a lot of good players would do to kill time until the next raid. If forging was capped at heroic and didn't have random sockets I wouldn't care. I just want to go back to having log competitions on a relatively even playing field.

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and this is what is wrong with wow nowadays.

the whole concept of morpgs is that you get levels and gear that let you kill bosses easier. to the point that you anilihilate them

what you and people you alike want is not mmorpg - you want some bizzare hybrid of dark souls/frogger/instance lobby based game

this is why in wrath 12 mln played game and now barely 1 mln plays .

WoW is no longer mmorpg when it comes to raiding.

No it's not that's never been the concept of mmorpgs at least not until recently. You gain power in order to be able to face the highest threats not to annihilate them with ease that's ARPGS not MMORPGS.

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You may be not concerned about it being an issue, but when your top DPS DK you was funneling gear to gets his pyrite infuser as last bis piece and types "/raid k guys i'm done with ulduar thanks everyone" during your HM progression, you'll find it concerning.

I know it's hard to imagine since this forum is full of pugmaster9000 players who can't be arsed about it, but various "gearing up" mechanics were made to make average guild life easier, and they were kinda good at that.

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Lets be fair here, random upgrade is more fun than "in two weeks i'll get +10ilvl on my bow!". Like, seriously, remember when you've got some crazy TFed item and how good it felt, then remember when you finished 10th vision to get a gemslot into an item

If you were still doing hm prog he wasn't in bis gear since hm had gear specific to it. It didn't feel good to get a tf item. I got 455 legs with near perfect stats plus socket out of a world quest in ep time and I felt like I wanted to quit. For the rest of the tier I had gear that came from a freaking world quest that was better than anything I could get out of raid. That isn't fun it sucks.

[Hctaz]

I agree that WFing/TFing fulfills the intended purpose the devs stated it was supposed to do and I have found it to be an improvement in the game. But when my S.O. and I both went out and did the same quests in LGN, and her luck is uncanny next to mine, and she got several more TFs than I did over the course of a week or so, there was suddenly a noticeable gap between us that felt unfair so I do think it had (/has) issues.

But it was nice to run a Heroic and actually get an upgrade because it max TF'd and replaced something I had. That kinda feeling is pretty cool to me.

Yeah that's basically been the pros and cons with the system. I'm not sure if you guys are casual players or are raiders or what, but this is exactly what the hardcore raiders are feeling as well. Now the difference between with like... two people playing WoW together casually vs a Mythic raid team is that your S.O. isn't going to kick you to the curb for somebody else who did get luckier. That may be the reason why raiders care more than "casual" players.

[kamuimac]

early on in BfA before i bounced i was able to keep up with my mythic raider friends in overall gear rating and damage simply by doing a 10 key once a week and a little luck from below 10 keys.

it was a lot of fun for me, but just for me. i honestly felt like a scuzz bucket doing equal or better numbers than those guys. i have to agree, it will be better for the game now that Tf Wf is gone.

and this is something that makes me sick when i see current wow

instead looking at how you could help your friends with gear you got you have some artificial idiotic feelings of "unfair world" because you got 1 or 2 pieces.

guess im to old for this bs . really glad im not raiding anymore if raiding turned into this abomination nowadays. when people dont look how they can help team by getting better gear only gear up to feel supperior then other in game.

gg you won more internet points then some random dude that you woudl never meet ever again in game. . such a RL acomplisment , congrats

kinda understand why people look at classic with such nostalgia and escape there. to simplier times.

[Mojo03]

It was bad if you were a min/maxer.

It was good if you were anything else.

That's pretty much the end of the story.

[Xath]

It was bad if you were a min/maxer.

It was good if you were anything else.

That's pretty much the end of the story.

It was bad if you liked having any feeling of accomplishment. It was good if you were a lazy bad.

I can make reductive statements as well, but mine are much more accurate.

[Sinyc]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

If you are geared out and the content is farm... why? Play a different game until the next expac. Do literally anything other than PvE in WoW.

TF'ing was too RNG based and was just a carrot on a stick mechanism to keep people paying $15 a month for 4 more ilvl's. What a joke.

[Schattenlied]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

Has it occurred to you that people want progression to not be infinite? That they want there to be a clearly defined end point during each content cycle where they can sit back, look at what they've accomplished, and say "finishing that up was worth it"?

Infinite treadmills, of any kind, are fucking horrendous, and if a game needs infinite treadmills to keep you playing it, it doesn't fucking deserve your money for any longer than it takes you to grow bored with the content... Good games don't have to crutch on infinite carrot-on-a-stick mechanics to keep people interested, good games keep people playing because the gameplay itself is fun.

[Osmeric]

WF/TF had the advantage of encouraging more highly geared players to run lesser difficulties. This helped lesser skilled players clear content and get gear (since the non-forged drops received by the higher geared players would be tradeable.) I feel the corruption system has reduced this.

[KYZ123]

I feel like the general reaction has been that corruption is a worse system than titanforging, regardless of whether you thought titanforging was a good system in itself.

On the bright side, corruption seems to be an 8.3-only thing, so 9.0 is going to either:

• Revert to titanforging, which is generally agreed to be a better or less bad system.
• Revert to the system before late-WoD, with warforging only or no warforging at all, which some believe to better than titanforging and corruption.
• Introduce yet another gearing 'gimmick', reaction TBD.

[Relapses]

WF/TF had the advantage of encouraging more highly geared players to run lesser difficulties. This helped lesser skilled players clear content and get gear (since the non-forged drops received by the higher geared players would be tradeable.) I feel the corruption system has reduced this.

Only because Corrupted gear isn't retroactive. If you could get Corrupted affixes on EP gear you'd probably still see more Mythic raiders running it. (And on that note, EP trinkets are still pretty good for some specs so it's not exactly hard to find any flavor of EP at any given time.)

[kaminaris]

It was bad if you liked having any feeling of accomplishment. It was good if you were a lazy bad.

I can make reductive statements as well, but mine are much more accurate.

No, not really, his statement is much more accurate and yours is simply wrong. That is also a provable fact since majority of players don't raid.
Thus majority of players didn't even have access to any sensible gear so they never even got a chance to have a feeling of "accomplishment" by completing some random gear.

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Has it occurred to you that people want progression to not be infinite? That they want there to be a clearly defined end point during each content cycle where they can sit back, look at what they've accomplished, and say "finishing that up was worth it"?

Infinite treadmills, of any kind, are fucking horrendous, and if a game needs infinite treadmills to keep you playing it, it doesn't fucking deserve your money for any longer than it takes you to grow bored with the content... Good games don't have to crutch on infinite carrot-on-a-stick mechanics to keep people interested, good games keep people playing because the gameplay itself is fun.

Progression should never be gear based. People who think they need to complete "temporary-gear-that-is-going-to-be-garbage-next-patch" should do some more thinking and have a reality check. Progress was always about killing last boss or obtaining a mount for every guildmate or clearing hc/mythic with alts.

So there was never an infinite treadmill, it's only in your head.