WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Gorsameth]

whole point of TF was exackly about people stoping to care about gear and bis lists.

thats exackly what wow devs told playerbase multiple times including organizing official panel during blizzcon describing whole phylosphy which could be sumemd up " we do not want bis lists and people feelign that they can complete gearing up "

if you belive that shadowlands wont have another heavy rng grind system you are delusional

if anythign it will be worse because it will be again gated behind additional activity to be even able to wear that gear - like corruption is.

people who rejoice about removal of TF are delusional . if anything it means casuals who pay for your raiding will once again leave game because after 2 months they have nothign to farm .

becuase nobody sane who is not raiding/mythic plus hopes for corruprion

"We don't want you to finish gearing" denies your players from a basic goal they enjoy striving towards.
Giving players goals is an important thing to keep them happy, our brains love completing goals set before us. Its how people are wired and going against human nature in design usually doesn't end up well.

[Kralljin]

but ye - mythic raiders will be happy - happy untill servers shut down because everyone else will leave retail .

I *really* want to know where this myth started that systems like Corrupted gear is somehow "catering" to Mythic raiders.
Players from Method flat out said that they don't want to see a system like Corrupted gear in Shadowlands because it's that horrible.

[Schattenlied]

People do not care about these so called "infinite treadmills" they literally don't give a single flying fuck.

If that were remotely true people wouldn't be complaining about them as much as they are. If that were true Blizzard wouldn't have wavered in the face of that feedback and spent time, effort, and money to change Titanforging into something else, they would have just left it alone. If that were true Blizzard would have never implemented a system like Titanforging in the first place, and as another poster already stated, Blizzard said the reason they did it was because they didn't want players to "finish" gearing - so clearly players care about gear, and Blizzard knows that.

You're the one who is delusional.

[Hctaz]

But seeing as WF/TF is 'above the average', you should absolutely be meeting the benchmark regardless since the raid is designed to be beaten without those bonuses.

See... that's another assumption I hear thrown around all the time, but it actually isn't correct either. Nighthold and beyond was tuned with titanforging in mind 100%.

World first kills on bosses in WoW are generally done when the guild is "undergeared" for the content. Mythic Tomb of Sargeras gear dropped at a baseline of 930 gear. That would mean that you'd expect the world first guild to be something more like 920-928 avg item level generally. Method had an average raid item level of 933 when they downed the boss for the first time with most of their key members actually being closer to something like 940 item level. The people lower than 930 item level were tanks and some healers (but they actually had a resto shaman that was 940 item level as well). Even with this gear, Mythic KJ was still considered to be nearly impossible. I don't remember if it was Method or Limit or who specifically did this, but there was a top guild progressing on this content that actually tweeted at Blizzard and told them that they would not continue progression on the boss until there were nerfs done.

So... tuning for an average guild would be something more like 940+ item level to be considered doable after wiping hundreds of times on the boss.

[Artemol]

Corruption is so much better, yeah

[kamuimac]

"We don't want you to finish gearing" denies your players from a basic goal they enjoy striving towards.
Giving players goals is an important thing to keep them happy, our brains love completing goals set before us. Its how people are wired and going against human nature in design usually doesn't end up well.

tell that to Ion not me.

im not wow game director.

he is.

and he clearly stated so many times that deterministic gear will never again happen in wow.

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I *really* want to know where this myth started that systems like Corrupted gear is somehow "catering" to Mythic raiders.
Players from Method flat out said that they don't want to see a system like Corrupted gear in Shadowlands because it's that horrible.

then who do you think its catering to ?

people who casualy play the game ? those people dont care - once they have 445 gear they are done and can leave till shadowlands. because in prepatch all coruption will be gone - alongide with essences and ap .

so for them there is 0 reason to play game since they cannot gear up higher .

people who do normal/hc raiding and mythic + 1-10 ? ye lol you can easily clear this with 0 coruption gear. ang again then leave game.

only ones farming coruption are junkies who play hardmodes. nobody else needs it for anything.

gg in order to stisfy 4-5 streamers and mythic raider blzzard just let everyone else know that they can just unsub till shaodwlands.

full success.

[Kralljin]

then who do you think its catering to ?

No one, because it's not a good system.

I mean, the system could be in theory engaging for the hardcore audience, but it completely fails because of two aspects:
1.RNG acquisition, cannot play around with every Corruption if you don't have them
2.Some effects are far too powerful to be completely RNG based, thinking of TD in M+ or Infinite Stars in Raids
3.Negative Corruption effects are also entirely RNG, which can lead to wipes on a lot of difficult encounters

The system is one massive clownfiesta.

[Big Thanks]

No one, because it's not a good system.

I mean, the system could be in theory engaging for the hardcore audience, but it completely fails because of two aspects:
1.RNG acquisition, cannot play around with every Corruption if you don't have them
2.Some effects are far too powerful to be completely RNG based, thinking of TD in M+ or Infinite Stars in Raids
3.Negative Corruption effects are also entirely RNG, which can lead to wipes on a lot of difficult encounters

The system is one massive clownfiesta.

It caters to me.
Vegeta what does the scouter say about this player?

Endgame: Random Battlegrounds
Content: Mythic dungeon +4 to +6, 2v2 arena at low cr
Reason to like corruption: Is fun to roll the dice and see what you get. Doesnt mind having a 420 item level piece with rank 2 echoing void.

[Kralljin]

It caters to me.

Then maybe argue with the person who said that it caters to the hardcore audience rather than casual audience, not the one who points out that it's not well received within the hardcore audience.

[Big Thanks]

Then maybe argue with the person who said that it caters to the hardcore audience rather than casual audience, not the one who points out that it's not well received within the hardcore audience.

You said "no one"...i thought you were saying exactly that.

[Kralljin]

You said "no one"...i thought you were saying exactly that.

"No group in particular".
Are you happy now?

[Osmeric]

You said "no one"...i thought you were saying exactly that.

He meant it didn't cater anyone, except the people it did. Duh!

[Kaver]

In BfA I killed 28 unique mythic bosses while they were current.

Haha yes you killed the first bosses of Uldir 28 times. Very impressive. And again, your parse on your progression kill of Mother was 7... Seven... On a BM hunter... you are a horrible progression raider. The only time you can get a somewhat decent parse is when you are killing a boss you have already killed 20 times. No wonder your guild kicked you off the team for the next tiers

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No, it is you who is hypocrite.

I'm not the one who keeps flaming people for doing something which I then do myself all the time. That's you mate.

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so for them there is 0 reason to play game since they cannot gear up higher .

They can just do harder content if they want better rewards. Easy.

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then who do you think its catering to ?

Nobody was asking for the corruption system. People just wanted the TF system gone. But they never said they wanted something like the corruption system. Only Blizzard are to blame for that shit.

The most Mythic raiders I know from in-game, twitch steams and youtube absolutely hate the corruption system.

[Osmeric]

Haha yes you killed the first bosses of Uldir 28 times. Very impressive. And again, your parse on your progression kill of Mother was 7... Seven... On a BM hunter... you are a horrible progression raider. The only time you can get a somewhat decent parse is when you are killing a boss you have already killed 20 times. No wonder your guild kicked you off the team for the next tiers

Doesn't the rank of the dps parse depend on the overall dps of the raid, not just your own ilvl? The higher the dps, the shorter the fight, and therefore the larger fraction of time is during bloodlust/heroism.

[kaminaris]

Haha yes you killed the first bosses of Uldir 28 times. Very impressive. And again, your parse on your progression kill of Mother was 7... Seven... On a BM hunter... you are a horrible progression raider. The only time you can get a somewhat decent parse is when you are killing a boss you have already killed 20 times. No wonder your guild kicked you off the team for the next tiers

Turns out you aren't raider as i thought Not as smart either, protip, hunter is no loner my main.
Lets be honest, you have no clue about doing parses nor how does whole ranking work.

I'm not the one who keeps flaming people for doing something which I then do myself all the time. That's you mate.

Where are your logs?

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Doesn't the rank of the dps parse depend on the overall dps of the raid, not just your own ilvl? The higher the dps, the shorter the fight, and therefore the larger fraction of time is during bloodlust/heroism.

Of course it does, that is why it will vary greatly depending on when you kill boss. If you are like top 500 guild, you have no chance on getting orange parses because you are faced against players with better gear. Corruption did change that tho. If you are lucky with corruptions you have a chance.

Don't expect non-raider to understand that.

[Spiral Mage]

See... that's another assumption I hear thrown around all the time, but it actually isn't correct either. Nighthold and beyond was tuned with titanforging in mind 100%.

World first kills on bosses in WoW are generally done when the guild is "undergeared" for the content. Mythic Tomb of Sargeras gear dropped at a baseline of 930 gear. That would mean that you'd expect the world first guild to be something more like 920-928 avg item level generally. Method had an average raid item level of 933 when they downed the boss for the first time with most of their key members actually being closer to something like 940 item level. The people lower than 930 item level were tanks and some healers (but they actually had a resto shaman that was 940 item level as well). Even with this gear, Mythic KJ was still considered to be nearly impossible. I don't remember if it was Method or Limit or who specifically did this, but there was a top guild progressing on this content that actually tweeted at Blizzard and told them that they would not continue progression on the boss until there were nerfs done.

So... tuning for an average guild would be something more like 940+ item level to be considered doable after wiping hundreds of times on the boss.

933 would be consistent with the item level you'd expect when you cleared a raid dropping 930. Guilds like the ones you mentioned are always clearing the content ASAP and trying to be the world's first, that does mean being under-geared. That doesn't represent what is expected or what will happen when 'normal' guilds clear that same content. 940+ would be expected for attempting the final boss, for a guild who'd taken proper time to gear up. Now, if you required 940 to even begin attempting the raid, there'd be a problem.

[Firefall]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...20psychologist

Stop making up these crazy strawman arguments simply because someone disagrees with you.

Uh, what part of that is armchair psychology? That's about individuals. So that would be if I pointed out how I just struck a nerve in you as a reader because you have no self esteem. And it wasn't an argument because I wasn't...arguing with anyone? I quoted the OP and agreed. I'd psychoanalyze you but I'll just say instead that you need to see a psychologist.

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Thats not it chief.

People dislike WF/TF because it is a never ending grind for upgrades. There is a big difference between "grinding for gear" and actually "progressing through content to get gear". WF/TF DEVALUED raiding on the highest level for many people (myself included). If the more or less "hardest content in the game" isn't the best way to get your character to the strongest point possible, why should I keep on raiding? It fucks up the entire progession system of gearing your character which is the main issue and that was pretty clear since legion launched. WF/TF in WoD (and MoP to an extend) worked fine because it was rare and you never expected huge upgrades from them, but getting them felt great. Now its just "clear X amount of mythic dungeon Y to maybe get lucky, if not, well just run it another 100 times". Thats the kind of grind that you expect from ARPGs, where you REALLY want to tweak your characters build, which simply isn't a possibility in an MMORPG.

It also doesn't help that lower difficulty content can reward you with extremely good gear. The only thing where WF/TF helped out is getting alts faster to a point of being ready to raid.

People always have different goals. For me the goal in every expansion/patch was to clear the hardest content and get my character to a point where I can safely say "I did everything and I'm done for now". It also opened up the possibility of actually playing another character and doing the same on that one or on multiple characters or simply stop playing until the next patch or expansion rolls around. There is NOTHING bad about being done with the game for a period of time until the next content hits and it actually helps with not getting burned out. Guilds took breaks BEFORE patches and expansions simply to NOT burn out. Obviously different people different strokes.

All of this that you just posted is bullshit that exists only in theory and not in practice. There's no way to grind for titanforges. If you believe there is because you consider playing 20 hours a day to do so a viable grind, you are one of the people whose entire life and sense of self comes from WoW.

[Hctaz]

933 would be consistent with the item level you'd expect when you cleared a raid dropping 930. Guilds like the ones you mentioned are always clearing the content ASAP and trying to be the world's first, that does mean being under-geared. That doesn't represent what is expected or what will happen when 'normal' guilds clear that same content. 940+ would be expected for attempting the final boss, for a guild who'd taken proper time to gear up. Now, if you required 940 to even begin attempting the raid, there'd be a problem.

...you just completely contradicted yourself. You said that the items are "bonus" and that you should be able to clear the raid without said bonuses, but then turn around and say that 940 is reasonable when the raid drops 930 without warforging??? That doesn't make any sense. If the top guild can't clear the raid with an average item level that is the same or lower than the default gear without this "bonus" then it isn't a bonus anymore.

And my point of reference was more along the lines of back when raid gear was item level 277 (heroic Icecrown Citadel), the top guilds cleared the content in like 265-270.

[Kaver]

Not as smart either, protip, hunter is no loner my main.

Well your parses on your hunter are still really bad. So you cant play the easiest class in the game very well. It's not my fault your guild didn't want to carry you anymore

Btw, if raiding sucks so much without titanforging then why did you kill Archimonde 27 times during WOD?

[Bryan Adam]

My guild does corruption run carries and it has been extremely profitable for my guild so far. So, as far as I can tell corruption is much more popular compared to WF / TF since it takes away some of the multi-layer RNG aspect from the game.