Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Sunseeker]

Well let's see, with Trump we get a 7-2 Heritage Foundation Supreme Court for the next several decades... Which very well could strip women of their right to abortions, strip gay people of their equal rights, etc...

You think Biden is also going to do that?

Like 2016, some people have just lost their collective minds that the DNC does what it always does.

Mind you I'm not happy about it, and I don't think Biden will give two shits about anything more left than the pre-Trump status-quo, but as much as I want a more progressive and left-leaning country, I am more than willing to accept a pre-Trump status-quo America.

It's not great, but it'll do, and that's enough for now.

[Theodarzna]

big snip, but do you ever get tired of using so many buzzwords just to create a massive strawman with alot of projecting.

as for decorum ive told you my problem with them is strasserism not how they say things.

The person who pulled the "HA! You are just a PJW clone!" accuses someone else of Strawmaning. Given your lack of understanding of words said in the above post and this relatively weak and simpering response, I doubt you know what Strasserism even is beyond it being a bad thing someone on Twitter told you about.

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That is simply prejudice, and I'd do my best not to put myself into that mindset.

I'd argue that if your takeaway from the 2016 election is that an evil Kremlin conspiracy used facebook meme's to subliminally program Neo-Fascist internet culture to create an army of Boys from Brazil to enact a coup than fundamentally not only did that person not learn anything, but that such people have no right to be in power in the United States if that is their sum take away from the 2016 election.

[jonnysensible]

The person who pulled the "HA! You are just a PJW clone!" accuses someone else of Strawmaning. Given your lack of understanding of words said in the above post and this relatively weak and simpering response, I doubt you know what Strasserism even is beyond it being a bad thing someone on Twitter told you about.

you have a history of posting right wing conspiracy theories and framing your arguments often in a manner directl copying twitter talking heads. Do I really have to type replacement, or south african farmer, migrant invasion and pull up your dopey posts?

Again you are strawmanning and projecting. You asked if I had a problem with thier decorum and told you the problem was with thier ideology and then you go with well you dont understand what you are saying. What a load of shite. You frame your posts as if you want to have a discussion but its pure shitposting. Throwing so much garbage out that nobody (except probably endus) would bother going quote by quote at the confused buzzword clusterfuck.

[Theodarzna]

Aye, and it'll be extra depressing when he'll be able to continue it for another 4 years, all because the democratic establishment is allergic to more progressive candidates.

I wouldn't go that far, or think that would go that far unless Trump actually went to bat and did with all sincerity outflank the Democratic establishment to its Left on economics. Then there would be a substantive reckoning because now you would have a situation where these "Big Structural" types have to actually make that call as to what has priority with them.

So say Trump came out and via executive order and some other chicanery cleared all Student Loan Debt; just Thanos snapped that shit into the void. Then it is a real political consideration because its now "Do I vote for a guy who doesn't respect pronouns, but who just gave me a metric fuck ton of money and literally made my life materially better?" or when it comes to Healthcare his recent suggestion that its "unfair 30 million are uninsured lets just open up Medicare and Medicaid.", if he unintentionally stumbled his way into give people free health care with no deductibles or premiums or co-pays to deal with while the Democrats are still clamoring to re-open the Obamacare markets so people can buy an expensive, maybe subsidized private insurance plan that will still cost them money in deductibles. Then, under such circumstances I'd say a Trump vote by a Leftist anyway makes some degree of tactical sense.

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you have a history of posting right wing conspiracy theories and framing your arguments often in a manner directl copying twitter talking heads. Do I really have to type replacement, or south african farmer, migrant invasion and pull up your dopey posts?

Again you are strawmanning and projecting. You asked if I had a problem with thier decorum and told you the problem was with thier ideology and then you go with well you dont understand what you are saying. What a load of shite. You frame your posts as if you want to have a discussion but its pure shitposting. Throwing so much garbage out that nobody (except probably endus) would bother going quote by quote at the confused buzzword clusterfuck.

Lol, at least you have to good sense to bring the spicy posts as evidence for my witchcraft trial. But yes, my stance on Immigration for the most part remains unchanged; I doubt believe in cheap labour and I am unswayed by appeals to open borders on allegedly humanitarian grounds. Everything else we will have to go to PM conversation since you know, forum rules.

I still don't see anything except ascribing an ideology to them, not one they have explicitly said they have. It is merely a label cast on them by others whose objection is primarily still aesthetic. It's funny but I think you buy into the fascist framing that aesthetics are everything [i.e. You are functionally a liberal, and fascism is a mutation of liberalism, so it's no surprise], or maybe you are running with that idea that fascism is some kind of cultural virus that must be fought on the level of signifiers, and your evidence is these apparent signifiers along with some vague guilt-by-association stuff. But a lot of what you see as fascist signifiers are probably more like signifiers of being a declassed, bummed out, depressed person -- any number of whom in the overall society are into reactionary politics as well as radical left-wing politics like the Chapo boys -- but being a depressed person is not unique to fascism, which doesn't have much that is actually unique to it.

I can't emphasize this enough that when fascism tries to influence the mainstream, it becomes indistinguishable from mainstream right-wing politics. The Nazis' ideas and anti-Semitism in the context of interwar Germany were not unique to them and those ideas were popular with broad sections of their society well before those parties came into being. What distinguishes fascism from other things are the violent, mass organizations they create to crush their enemies and rival organizations. So the idea of the Dirtbag Left being so contaminated by vague signifiers that they go out to attack members of labor unions and communist parties on behalf of a coterie of generals and industrialists is pretty goofy, if you think about it, which is what would be required of them to be fascists. If anything Antifa unironically fits that description far greater since they mostly occupy their time attacking people that industrialists and generals don't like, mainly those icky contaminated bad naughty Trump voters whom nobody outside of Fox News believes is are anything other than Kremlin possessed thralls of evil. But if I recall you are the person who suggested via my posts I managed to "redpilled/groomed a vulnerable autistic man" so maybe you sincerely believe that signifers are the end all be all and its like a virus spreading from person to person via memes.

[Vash The Stampede]

So say Trump came out and via executive order and some other chicanery cleared all Student Loan Debt; just Thanos snapped that shit into the void. Then it is a real political consideration because its now "Do I vote for a guy who doesn't respect pronouns, but who just gave me a metric fuck ton of money and literally made my life materially better?" or when it comes to Healthcare his recent suggestion that its "unfair 30 million are uninsured lets just open up Medicare and Medicaid.", if he unintentionally stumbled his way into give people free health care with no deductibles or premiums or co-pays to deal with while the Democrats are still clamoring to re-open the Obamacare markets so people can buy an expensive, maybe subsidized private insurance plan that will still cost them money in deductibles. Then, under such circumstances I'd say a Trump vote by a Leftist anyway makes some degree of tactical sense.

Wait.. Trump is thinking of supporting a Medicare for All like system? Why is it the blood sucking Republicans are supporting something that Joe Biden won't? Care to explain this to me Joe Biden supporters? You guys want another 4 years of Trump? Because that's how you get another 4 years of Trump. Support Medicare for All before Trump does, because it'll look real shitty if Joe Biden didn't. If Joe Biden changes his mind on M4A after Trump does, that'll just make him look like a Flip Flopper.

[Theodarzna]

Wait.. Trump is thinking of supporting a Medicare for All like system? Why is it the blood sucking Republicans are supporting something that Joe Biden won't? Care to explain this to me Joe Biden supporters? You guys want another 4 years of Trump? Because that's how you get another 4 years of Trump. Support Medicare for All before Trump does, because it'll look real shitty if Joe Biden didn't. If Joe Biden changes his mind on M4A after Trump does, that'll just make him look like a Flip Flopper.

He has floated what I linked, I doubt it will materialize, but if it did; than I'd say the Democratic Party is truly sunk in 2020 because if Trump credibly just created free health care for people and laid a foundation for just expanding to M4A in the end long before any Democrat even would, than the Democrats are stuck as "Pronoun respecting Woke Capitalism" the political party.

[Santti]

Wait.. Trump is thinking of supporting a Medicare for All like system? Why is it the blood sucking Republicans are supporting something that Joe Biden won't? Care to explain this to me Joe Biden supporters? You guys want another 4 years of Trump? Because that's how you get another 4 years of Trump. Support Medicare for All before Trump does, because it'll look real shitty if Joe Biden didn't. If Joe Biden changes his mind on M4A after Trump does, that'll just make him look like a Flip Flopper.

Trump has been talking about having healthcare for everyone for long time, even before he was the president.

It's what Trump does. He promises the moon from the sky, and goes back golfing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...th-care-215402

Since 1999, at least.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...out-1-trillion

“I’m not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid,” Trump said in 2015, adding, “Every other Republican is going to cut it.”

I don't know, but I think the budget should be increased, not cut, if you want medicare for all, or is that just me being crazy?

[unfilteredJW]

you have a history of posting right wing conspiracy theories and framing your arguments often in a manner directl copying twitter talking heads. Do I really have to type replacement, or south african farmer, migrant invasion and pull up your dopey posts?

Again you are strawmanning and projecting. You asked if I had a problem with thier decorum and told you the problem was with thier ideology and then you go with well you dont understand what you are saying. What a load of shite. You frame your posts as if you want to have a discussion but its pure shitposting. Throwing so much garbage out that nobody (except probably endus) would bother going quote by quote at the confused buzzword clusterfuck.

Nailed it.

[Theodarzna]

Trump has been talking about having healthcare for everyone for long time, even before he was the president.

It's what Trump does. He promises the moon from the sky, and goes back golfing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...th-care-215402

Since 1999, at least.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...out-1-trillion

“I’m not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid,” Trump said in 2015, adding, “Every other Republican is going to cut it.”

I don't know, but I think the budget should be increased, not cut, if you want medicare for all, or is that just me being crazy?

That is ultimately the real issue, he is mostly talk, which if he wasn't so profoundly lazy he probably could eviscerate the Democratic Party as a political force for a generation with either student loan forgiveness or medicare for all, but the later would require a ton of work from a profoundly lazy man. The structural forces of the GOP would make him doing Medicare for All, even Medicare for Some More, a profoundly difficult task and he is a profoundly weak and lazy person. Student Loan Cancellation probably could be done without congressional action. So; I am surprised he hasn't done that one or even offered it given if there is any one or two issues that alone could utterly cripple the Democratic Party, those are it.

Because a lot of the Democratic Party plan is to get votes on the future promise that someday they will cancel student debt and create Universal Healthcare. If they get undercut on even one of those by the other party, they are done for. Like, right now the sales pitch, especially to Sanders voters who have the audacity to care about issues is "Well, sure we don't plan on doing those things now, or any time in the near future, but we are the party more likely to ever do those things than the GOP", which is weak enough that plenty of the Sanders cohort are staying home anyway. But if Trump actually say cancelled student loan debt tomorrow, well, the Democratic party would lose a generation of voters over night.

[fwc577]

But if Trump actually say cancelled student loan debt tomorrow, well, the Democratic party would lose a generation of voters over night.

I don't necessarily believe this to be true. Trump is giving me $1200 and I WFH (for the time being) in a stable job I'm not worried about losing. The government is giving me a bonus! But it's not going to sway me in either direction.

My voting decision isn't solely based on the shallow decisions of just health care for all or student loans.

It's based on the overall platform. We all need to work together toward equality and unfortunately, the Republican platform is the platform of, we've got ours, fuck you all.

Even if they did give me healthcare for all or paid off my families student loans. I'm not going to be bribed for a few dollars.

I also believe this is how many Democrats are, at least within my own social circles.

[cubby]

would be the only way i would consider voting for biden would be a sanders/biden ticket.

Just remember, not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. The GOP thrives when fewer people vote.

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Didn't Biden already say his VP will be a woman?

He did - but hasn't chosen anyone yet. I suspect he know pretty much who it will be, but has to go through the motions. Obviously, I could be wrong.

[Vash The Stampede]

Trump has been talking about having healthcare for everyone for long time, even before he was the president.

It's what Trump does. He promises the moon from the sky, and goes back golfing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...th-care-215402

Since 1999, at least.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...out-1-trillion

“I’m not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid,” Trump said in 2015, adding, “Every other Republican is going to cut it.”

I don't know, but I think the budget should be increased, not cut, if you want medicare for all, or is that just me being crazy?

True, but at this point Joe Biden isn't even humouring the idea of a M4A. Joe Biden is against M4A.

[tromage2]

Didn't Biden already say his VP will be a woman?

What a sexist, and they call this progression (lol) to upfront declare 50% of the population unfit because they have something between their legs.

[Inuyaki]

True, but at this point Joe Biden isn't even humouring the idea of a M4A. Joe Biden is against M4A.

Oh boy...
At this point it's hard to tell what will be worse for the US. 8 years of Biden and another bad Republican afterwards or 4 years of Trump and hoping that RBG does not die in that time.

[Telogrus]

True, but at this point Joe Biden isn't even humouring the idea of a M4A. Joe Biden is against M4A.

Joey Diaz was right. Joe Biden does look like he’s already had the formaldehyde put in him

[arandomuser]

joe biden is right, its weird in 2016 bernie was like " the democratic party dosent speak to white union workers enough"
and joe biden consults unions, and the unions SAY TO HIM medicare for all will cost them their union negotiated insurance and that might be bad for him to run on.
so joe biden literally listens to them and thats one of the biggest reason he dosent support m4A.
Joe bidens solution is simply, unions can keep their good insurance, and government WILL PROVIDE insurance for low income americans, with an affordable public option competing with the private market, which is leagues ahead of trumpcare.

oh and biden won 83% of counties that sanders won in 2016, hes middle class joe.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/pol...ty/5019336002/

[Theodarzna]

I don't necessarily believe this to be true. Trump is giving me $1200 and I WFH (for the time being) in a stable job I'm not worried about losing. The government is giving me a bonus! But it's not going to sway me in either direction.

My voting decision isn't solely based on the shallow decisions of just health care for all or student loans.

It's based on the overall platform. We all need to work together toward equality and unfortunately, the Republican platform is the platform of, we've got ours, fuck you all.

Even if they did give me healthcare for all or paid off my families student loans. I'm not going to be bribed for a few dollars.

I also believe this is how many Democrats are, at least within my own social circles.

I mean I am probably overstating the danger. But the power of material enrichment is strong. I mean we aren't talking a few dollars, there are people for whom that is anywhere between 30k-100k dollars of debts wiped out. And when you boil away the nice speeches, all politics is the promise of patronage and giving a whole class of voters a life free of debts is a big damn selling point. And I wouldn't call those issues shallow, those are real material benefits, that would actually make peoples lives fundamentally better.

[fwc577]

joe biden is right, its weird in 2016 bernie was like " the democratic party dosent speak to white union workers enough"
and joe biden consults unions, and the unions SAY TO HIM medicare for all will cost them their union negotiated insurance and that might be bad for him to run on.
so joe biden literally listens to them and thats one of the biggest reason he dosent support m4A.
Joe bidens solution is simply, unions can keep their good insurance, and government WILL PROVIDE insurance for low income americans, with an affordable public option competing with the private market, which is leagues ahead of trumpcare.

It's such bullshit. Union workers need to get back to a time before insurance when they negotiated pay raises and working conditions with a threat of a strike if the negotiations go bad. They shouldn't have to use the chip of healthcare in order to negotiate on pay raises, vacation, and other benefits. Besides, who the fuck cares if I get a $0.50 raise when I get an extra $1000 on my deductible. The unions are just as fucking crooked as the bosses who they're "negotiating" with.

/spits on ground.

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I mean I am probably overstating the danger. But the power of material enrichment is strong. I mean we aren't talking a few dollars, there are people for whom that is anywhere between 30k-100k dollars of debts wiped out. And when you boil away the nice speeches, all politics is the promise of patronage and giving a whole class of voters a life free of debts is a big damn selling point. And I wouldn't call those issues shallow, those are real material benefits, that would actually make peoples lives fundamentally better.

If they get rid of federal debt, that would be $50k wiped off my total. If they get rid of private debt. That's another $50k off my total.

I'm totally expecting to eventually pay it all off. I work a great job making good money now and my costs each month are significant. I could make some huge changes in my life with all that extra money each month.

Still couldn't get in a voting booth and vote for a Republican. I've got more dignity and self-respect than that.

[arandomuser]

It's such bullshit. Union workers need to get back to a time before insurance when they negotiated pay raises and working conditions with a threat of a strike if the negotiations go bad. They shouldn't have to use the chip of healthcare in order to negotiate on pay raises, vacation, and other benefits. Besides, who the fuck cares if I get a $0.50 raise when I get an extra $1000 on my deductible. The unions are just as fucking crooked as the bosses who they're "negotiating" with.

/spits on ground.

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If they get rid of federal debt, that would be $50k wiped off my total. If they get rid of private debt. That's another $50k off my total.

I'm totally expecting to eventually pay it all off. I work a great job making good money now and my costs each month are significant. I could make some huge changes in my life with all that extra money each month.

Still couldn't get in a voting booth and vote for a Republican. I've got more dignity and self-respect than that.

I agree with that unironically, i cant tell if you are being ironic or not but i personally find our obsession with work and the working class dumb, especially with the electoral college you need to cater your whole argument around 2 states michigan/pennsylvania instead of a nationwide coalition winning the popular vote. I think i read somewhere they calculated you could theoritically win the election by winning 36% of the popular vote, which is abotu the same percentage a certain historical figure got in the 1930s

[Lenonis]

Several times I've asked Biden supporters to name a single policy difference.

My response to you is the same as the responses to your other accounts.

Get on a real account if you want to have a real conversation. Otherwise I'll just keep reporting your burner accounts and not give you an answer.