I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Zarator8]

Best open world pvp I've ever seen.

You're wasting your time with these fools, to them it's either deathball or no WPvP. Even once TBC releases and people murder each other over Hellfire PvP objectives, they'll tell you something like "It's not real WPvP, real WPvP is walking into BRM as a 40m raid and making your way through 80 other ppl". They're a lost cause.

[vitor210]

TBC will 100% be failure like it is on private servers.

Ah yes, the argument that an oficial server will fail bc some run of the mill, reversed engineered private server also failed. Also, wasnt that the same argument that "suposedly" Classic would fail just like any other vanilla private server?

Also also, Netherwing would like a word with you

[Whoopax]

Ah yes, the argument that an oficial server will fail bc some run of the mill, reversed engineered private server also failed. Also, wasnt that the same argument that "suposedly" Classic would fail just like any other vanilla private server?

Also also, Netherwing would like a word with you

Netherwing is dead no one likes tbc except 1k ppl that jump servers

[Drpizka]

Here we are again.

You people just cannot stop whining, huh? You were posting anti-vanilla comments, now it's TBC turn.

WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE US ENJOY THE GAME WE WANT?

We know the pros and cons of each expansion, and hey guess what; WE DON'T CARE.

We just want to experience the game we love. Can you please return to the game YOU love, and stop bothering about everyone else?

[Lubefist]

Ive literally played from the first beta of vanilla. I raided every tier. Through vanilla, tbc, wrath, cata, mop, wod, legion and bfa. Only skipoing 8.2.

I killed every boss in tbc. Does not mean i thought it was good. Infact i thought the entire expansion was terrible.

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Really?

I thought tbc was horrible. Truly terrible.

Even if i did every raid, got all attunements, did everything. The entire expasion is a 0.5/10 for me.

I cleared everything too and got s2/s3/s4 gladiators from arena. The fact that you have meaningful endgame content you can do whenever you want basically is what makes it so great. TBC arenas are also crazy fun and the pace is perfect imo, and you don't have to run shitloads of M+, timegated rubbish, essences and whatever the fuck you are obligated to do in retail if you want to have even a shot in 1700 bracket. Even then you can get fisted by the gods of rng if you get left behind with shitty corruptions on gear.

Saying "you did everything" is false if you only cleared pve content. There's a reason why arenas draw the attention of big esport organizations etc. it was really big back then (and in wotlk ofc).

[Whoopax]

Imagine playing wow for arena or "esports", just go play cs or dota lmao

[FelPlague]

Imho the gameplay arguments are quite valid - destruction of world PVP and introduction of the disease named "arenas", in particular.

However, even more so than any of this - I just can't freaking stand spacegoats and the purple alien theme of everything in that expansion. The theme is just absolutely, entirely unappealing to me. No matter how good or bad the gameplay was/is, I didn't, and never will enjoy BC just because of its setting.

world pvp was destroyed when they added BG's, this is already visible on classic.

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Imagine playing wow for arena or "esports", just go play cs or dota lmao

Imagine playing cs or dota for "esports" just go play league of legends or cod.

[Unholyground]

TBC coming out will in fact effect no one, people who move to TBC from Vanilla were already planning to do so when it inevitably happened anyways so that is a moot point for damn sure.

A healthy server population in classic is about 4k per faction, I played on The Rebirth for example and we only had 3.6k on our faction and we never had trouble finding people for dungeons in any level range and what not. So people crying that populations will be too low have no idea what they are talking about.

[Jastall]

Cho'gall didn't have WPvP in TBC. Cho'gall had Horde ganking Alliance.

Not much of a difference considering world PvP is 90% ganking, on either a small or large scale. Classic proved that well enough, and I doubt TBC will be much different.

[Firefall]

BC, Wrath, and Cata were each dramatic improvements to the core gameplay--class design. Nothing else, good or bad, matters as much in my book. I'd play a BC classic, but would prefer Wrath or the never-happening-because-people-misremember-it Cata.

(MoP was also great class design but talents 2.0 is it's own thing entirely so it wasn't the same "progression")

[FelPlague]

TBC were only good because heroics were relatively hard and their loot was in the overall game still valueable, but their overall design was a downgrade from Classic.
The fact that Blizzard almost exclusively designed winged dungeons really left a sour tast in my mouth.

All four Auchindoun dungeons look the same, except they're filled with:
-Ethereals
-(un)dead Draenei
-Arakkoa
-Shadow Council dudes

Auchindoun isn't the only offender, TK and SSC dungeons follow suit.

So you mean like...
Stratholm UD
Stratholme live
Dire maul east
Dire maul north
Dire maul west
Upper blackrock spire
lower blackrock spire
maraudon orange
maraudon purple
maraudon falls

and the like 5 or so different wings of blackrock depths.


vanilla had these exact same "winged dungeons"
but they were broken up into their own dungeons, instead of being 1 massive dungeon that you had to follow the wing yourself.

For example, maraduon coulda been 3 dungeons but it wasent, and it had
Centaur
Earth giants
Satyrs
Marsh walkers
Water elementals
stone queens
lashers
crocolisks
goblins
Dyrads
Treants
imps
slimes
worms
greater slimes
maggots
turtles
diemetradons
earth elementles
hydras


so as you said with TBC, vanilla had winged dungeons.

[Synical123]

So you mean like...
Stratholm UD
Stratholme live
Dire maul east
Dire maul north
Dire maul west
Upper blackrock spire
lower blackrock spire
maraudon orange
maraudon purple
maraudon falls

and the like 5 or so different wings of blackrock depths.


vanilla had these exact same "winged dungeons"
but they were broken up into their own dungeons, instead of being 1 massive dungeon that you had to follow the wing yourself.

Honestly this is basically what classic die hards will just come up with to try and convince themselves TBC isn't a direct upgrade from classic.

If they aren't crying about flying then they will most certainly make up some nonsense that happens in vanilla as well. For example someone complained that TBC was boring because high end levels would just stay in 3-5 zones just farming and not go to low level zones.... as if classic is so much different LOL

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BC, Wrath, and Cata were each dramatic improvements to the core gameplay--class design. Nothing else, good or bad, matters as much in my book. I'd play a BC classic, but would prefer Wrath or the never-happening-because-people-misremember-it Cata.

(MoP was also great class design but talents 2.0 is it's own thing entirely so it wasn't the same "progression")

I didn't misremember a thing, cata drastically ruined the game. Especially if you are a pvper.

[Kralljin]

So you mean like...
Stratholm UD
Stratholme live

Strat is one massive dungeon, TBC ones aren't.

Dire maul east
Dire maul north
Dire maul west

Probably the only comparison that lives up here

Upper blackrock spire
lower blackrock spire

Yeah, because UBRS doesn't require like 5 more people and is still CONTAINED WITHIN THE SAME DUNGEON.
Not to mention that LBRS is in terms of size still not your regular run of the mill dungeon.

Unlike TBC dungeons where pretty much any dungeon (besides Auchenai crypts) has between 3 and 5 bosses, Vanilla are ones are far more varied there.

and the like 5 or so different wings of blackrock depths.

Has the term "mega dungeon" ever entered your mind?
It clearly hasn't, because else you wouldn't list those.

Like seriously, if you cannot spot the difference between the design of Vanilla dungeons and TBC ones, i can't help you.

[blankfaced]

It was some of the best times for random bgs. Resto druids were beasts.

I don't think anything like vanilla dungeons will ever be done again. Nothing really compares to BRS's size or Strat's atmosphere.

[Synical123]

Strat is one massive dungeon, TBC ones aren't.


Probably the only comparison that lives up here


Yeah, because UBRS doesn't require like 5 more people and is still CONTAINED WITHIN THE SAME DUNGEON.
Not to mention that LBRS is in terms of size still not your regular run of the mill dungeon.

Unlike TBC dungeons where pretty much any dungeon (besides Auchenai crypts) has between 3 and 5 bosses, Vanilla are ones are far more varied there.



Has the term "mega dungeon" ever entered your mind?
It clearly hasn't, because else you wouldn't list those.

Like seriously, if you cannot spot the difference between the design of Vanilla dungeons and TBC ones, i can't help you.

Seems you missed the point this guy was making. The context was that they all look similar in TBC when in fact, a lot of vanilla ones do as well. The only difference is instead of having one mega dungeon like vanilla they just split them up. Again, the context wasn't whether a mega dungeon was better than ones split up, the context was aesthetics. Plus he even mentioned in his post that they were mega dungeons, just 'winged dungeons' that were all put together.

[Utrrabbit]

Either you are lying, or you have no taste.

Or. It was a terrible expansion and YOU have no taste.

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I cleared everything too and got s2/s3/s4 gladiators from arena. The fact that you have meaningful endgame content you can do whenever you want basically is what makes it so great. TBC arenas are also crazy fun and the pace is perfect imo, and you don't have to run shitloads of M+, timegated rubbish, essences and whatever the fuck you are obligated to do in retail if you want to have even a shot in 1700 bracket. Even then you can get fisted by the gods of rng if you get left behind with shitty corruptions on gear.

Saying "you did everything" is false if you only cleared pve content. There's a reason why arenas draw the attention of big esport organizations etc. it was really big back then (and in wotlk ofc).

When i said...everything. that included pvp, all rep grinds to exalted, every mount.

It litetally meants EVERYTHING. I just did not feel like writing it out.

[Kralljin]

The only difference is instead of having one mega dungeon like vanilla they just split them up.

They're not Mega dungeons.
All four Auchindoun Dungeons for example deal with different groups housed within that complex, it's not like LBRS or BRD where you fight multiple groups of the same faction but these four dungeons contain four different factions.

You couldn't reasonably turn Auchindoun into a single dungeon without it feeling like a massive clusterfuck because you'd move from plundering Ethereals, to crazy Draenei, to Arakkoa, to Shadow council.
These are four groups that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, it makes no sense to put them into one large dungeon.

Plus he even mentioned in his post that they were mega dungeons, just 'winged dungeons' that were all put together.

They weren't.
If you ran Maraudon, you didn't call it after you killed Lord Vyletongue because he's the Final boss of a wing, you went on and killed the Princess as well, maybe even went into the other wing a bit if you wanted to all quests within a single run.

It's not like if you're running Slave pens, you're somehow obliged to do Steamvault after as well, because they are clearly not connected to each other.

[Synical123]

They're not Mega dungeons.
All four Auchindoun Dungeons for example deal with different groups housed within that complex, it's not like LBRS or BRD where you fight multiple groups of the same faction but these four dungeons contain four different factions.

You couldn't reasonably turn Auchindoun into a single dungeon without it feeling like a massive clusterfuck because you'd move from plundering Ethereals, to crazy Draenei, to Arakkoa, to Shadow council.
These are four groups that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, it makes no sense to put them into one large dungeon.



They weren't.
If you ran Maraudon, you didn't call it after you killed Lord Vyletongue because he's the Final boss of a wing, you went on and killed the Princess as well, maybe even went into the other wing a bit if you wanted to all quests within a single run.

It's not like if you're running Slave pens, you're somehow obliged to do Steamvault after as well, because they are clearly not connected to each other.

It's as if you read nothing of what I just said lol that or you didnt comprehend a single thing I said

also

You couldn't reasonably turn Auchindoun into a single dungeon without it feeling like a massive clusterfuck because you'd move from plundering Ethereals, to crazy Draenei, to Arakkoa, to Shadow council.

wait a minute I feel like I've seen something like this somewhere... hmmm if only I could remember..

[Zarator8]

Like seriously, if you cannot spot the difference between the design of Vanilla dungeons and TBC ones, i can't help you.

It's not about how they're designed, but how people play them. The point is, when given the opportunity to play these dungeons as if they were built in wings, people do - even in Classic. That's part of the reason why winged dungeons were introduced in TBC to begin with - because of the popularity of stuff like Strat UD runs, UBRS Rend runs, BRD Emp runs, DM:Tribute runs and so on. And Scarlet Monastery, ofc.

It might come as a shocker to you, but lots of people don't really enjoy having to book 2+ hours to complete a dungeon. It's fun the first few times, but it kills any desire to replay it and, in turn, makes finding a group for those dungeons a chore (just as in the case of LBRS, BRD full and, to a lesser extent, Scholo)

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They're not Mega dungeons.
All four Auchindoun Dungeons for example deal with different groups housed within that complex, it's not like LBRS or BRD where you fight multiple groups of the same faction but these four dungeons contain four different factions.

You couldn't reasonably turn Auchindoun into a single dungeon without it feeling like a massive clusterfuck because you'd move from plundering Ethereals, to crazy Draenei, to Arakkoa, to Shadow council.
These are four groups that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, it makes no sense to put them into one large dungeon.

I wonder why you focus so much on Auchindoun.

Maybe because it's the only cluster of dungeons in TBC that works like that, whereas every single other one - such as Hellfire Citadel, Coilfang Reservoir, Caverns of Time and Tempest Keep - present an overall omogeneous storyline?

They weren't.
If you ran Maraudon, you didn't call it after you killed Lord Vyletongue because he's the Final boss of a wing, you went on and killed the Princess as well, maybe even went into the other wing a bit if you wanted to all quests within a single run.

It's not like if you're running Slave pens, you're somehow obliged to do Steamvault after as well, because they are clearly not connected to each other.

Excuse me? How many BRD runs only do Arena and Angerforge (and sometimes Argelmach)? How many Strat runs only do Live or UD? How many LBRS runs only do one or two of the gem bosses - sometimes skipping straight to Wyrmthalak?

You're not obliged to do Steamvault after Slave Pens any more than you're obliged to do Drakkisath after killing Rend, or Strat UD after doing Live.

[Kralljin]

wait a minute I feel like I've seen something like this somewhere... hmmm if only I could remember..

Comments like these really just show that you have absolutely no idea what i'm talking about.

Take BRD, it's one massive dungeon because the idea behind it was supposed to be that it is the capital of the Dark Iron nation, there are multiple themes to this such as the prison, Civillians areas, treasure vaults, a bar, Military Garrison, crafting areas and so forth.
It wasn't split up because that would take away from that fantasy of it being one large complex, all these are still connected because all of them are part of this fantasy of a dwarven city.

Same goes for Blackrock Spire, LBRS is the place where the footsoldiers are housed, from Ogres, Trolls and a variety of Orc Legions with different aspects to them.
They didn't say "this is the dungeon of X", but rather connectd them in large complex because it fits the overall theme of the place and lends some scale to the overall complex.

Auchindoun has none of them, it's four random factions within one complex that have no underlying connection to each other besides being in the complex.

The Vanilla dungeons are much more designed with fulfilling a certain fantasy in mind, TBC dungeons are designed with much more player convenience in mind, there aren't supposed to be optional bosses, no dungeon should take longer than an hour, no Dungeon should have more than five Bosses, you rarely need to do any pre quests in order to get quests for that dungeons and so forth.

Excuse me? How many BRD runs only do Arena and Angerforge (and sometimes Argelmach)? How many Strat runs only do Live or UD? How many LBRS runs only do one or two of the gem bosses - sometimes skipping straight to Wyrmthalak?

There is a slight difference between players setting their own terms and the devs setting them.
And that's a key difference, if the players do that, it's their thing, if people only want to kill a handful of bosses in that dungeon, that's their choice but it's not like Blizzard specifically designed every dungeon in that way.

These runs in particular are very much a part of Classic's design, you won't find any "Quagmirran runs" for Slave pens in TBC.