Ambition is the enemy of choice.

[Lolites]

Guess you are in for a rude awakening when people start sayin "X covenant only"

some will, ill ignore those and go with others, no issue at all... unless covenant ability does 50% of your dmg which would be a completely different issue

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I love how people pretend that this will only be a 3% difference.

i love how people pretend how big a difference it will be when they have no fucking clue...
and its a bit of a difference "not even trying" and "doing 5% under superoptimalised maximum" but sure pretend otherwise...
ill play to enjoy the game i wont choose covenant i dont like bcs some moron wont take me with his pug bcs my ability is some 5% lower in simulations (which are far from reality anyhow), its fine if you will, its your choice and your stance towards the game, but its NOT the only one

[Cosmic Janitor]

i love how people pretend how big a difference it will be when they have no fucking clue...

We come fresh out of 4 years of definitely-not-just-3-% when it comes to Blizzard's current expansion gimmiks. We've also seen previews and I can tell you that the Venthyr mage ability will never be able to compete with the Kyrean one in a raid. Not to mention that some of the abilities have clear cut niches, which just means you will gimp yourself utility wise to only be decent in one part of the endgame, let alone the possible repercussions for other specs.

[Lolites]

We come fresh out of 4 years of definitely-not-just-3-% when it comes to Blizzard's current expansion gimmiks. We've also seen previews and I can tell you that the Venthyr mage ability will never be able to compete with the Kyrean one in a raid. Not to mention that some of the abilities have clear cut niches, which just means you will gimp yourself utility wise to only be decent in one part of the endgame, let alone the possible repercussions for other specs.

and despite the fact i played frost DK which was in BEST times at average i never had any issues finding groups or doing content... so what exactly is problem? having lower number next to your name in dmg meter? if thats what matter to you, fine, but in that case you have to play best class, spec, talents, gear AND now covenant, dont try to blame it on covenant abilities like min-maxing wasnt thing since vanila

and yes now corrupted gear did make huge differences, so what happened to that? ah yes, they nerfed it so the differences are small...
how unexpected, and how totaly not what will happen with covenant abilities...

[Stickiler]

We've also seen previews and I can tell you that the Venthyr mage ability will never be able to compete with the Kyrean one in a raid.

Kyrian: Radiant Spark Conjure a radiant spark that causes Arcane damage instantly and additional damage over time.The target takes a percentage of increased damage from your direct damage spells, stacking each time they are struck. This effect ends after a number of spells.

Venthyr: Mirrors of Torment Conjure mirrors to torment the enemy for a time. Whenever the target casts a spell or ability, a mirror is consumed to inflict Shadow damage and their movement and cast speed are slowed. The final mirror will instead inflict Shadow damage to the enemy, Rooting and Silencing them for some time.

Bosses cast spells damn near constantly, and we've got absolutely zero idea of how many spells or mirrors there are going to be, or their damage. You're just pulling your opinions straight out of your ass.

[Big Thanks]

Lol, a class has meaning and a class fantasy because of abilities. I don't know why you're trying to pretend the abilities here aren't very, very explicitly themed to match the personality and aesthetics of their covenant.

I "roflmao" at the idea of picking an ability just because it fits the fantasy of the class.

[Captain Marvel]

I "roflmao" at the idea of picking an ability just because it fits the fantasy of the class.

In Vanilla and BC, I never used smite or holyfire on my shadowpriest when I was out of shadowform. Hell, I even took them off my bars because they were antithetical to my idea of a shadowpriest.

[Nevcairiel]

Guess you are in for a rude awakening when people start sayin "X covenant only"

Thats never really going to be a widespread thing. Some arrogant elitists may do it, but very rarely. The majority of people will just never know which covenant is best for every single spec in every situation, and in PvE the difference is also never going to be that extreme.

People like to act like it'll be a day and night difference, as if one ability does everything and the other one does nothing. But thats just not the case. There will always be situations that favor either ability.

The comparison given above with sub-optimal specs is actually quite appropriate. Sure, some specs have a bit of a harder time to get into groups, but as long as you don't want to do absolute high-end M+/Mythic raiding (which only 1% of players do), you'll get by fine.

[Kumorii]

So the exact same shit as picking any given class at any point in the game's entire history?

*any games history...

That people still are worried about changes in games is odd af... :|

[kammo]

I'll look at class guides for an idea on what to pick but for the most part will test some stuff out and find a play style I like to play, I don't really care for min/maxing

[VinceVega]

I try to play my characters on a high level. I do mythic raiding and also try to get higher up in mythic+. But i slacked of a bit here.

That is the way i play the game and i have to take certain things into account because of this.

I probably won't take the Covenant i want to take but the one that is the most beneficial for me. And i am fine with that.

I have another character with whom i can RP the shit out of the covenants because that is what he is for. Play the game how i want to play it not as the SIMs and DPS meters tell me to.
You don't always get everything in life. And that just gives your choice more meaning.

So i am on both sides. On one i min/max the shit out of one or two characters, on the other i play how the f i want with two other just for flair.

We had the aldor and scryers in BC and i can't remember anyone whining about those inscriptions back then. It just gave a bit of a rivalry. Which i kinda liked.

Ergo: if you want to min/max you have to live with certain things like not always beeing able to choose what you want to choose. And i don't see while a casual player would not feel the need to do minmaxing. Hey has players in his group he will be compared to. Unless he truly only players with himself or PuGs... which well... then he can do whatever he wants.

[Zephire]

I'd like everyone to join me on a thought experiment for just a moment. You can go back to your hater threads after this moment but I'd like you to step back from the ongoing covenant discussions to take a bigger look at a trend that has been part of WoW for a long time.

Ask yourself: How important is "simming" and "optimal play" and the way one's hand feels forced by one imposing itself on the other. Be real here, what level do you play at? Who do you play with? How do you play WoW, when you're actually enjoying BEING your character?

If you play among friends, doing content that, everyone being real with each other in said group of friends, your group truly "belongs" at, your freedom is boundless within an access level of play for said group. Now, I once played with a player that wanted to play a frost mage as "I spam blizzard" and not be challenged because "we're all friends here," (that didn't fly and she moved on eventually) but there's a big difference between that and demanding everyone around you put ambition and optimization over personal character concept and overall enjoyment of one's avatar in a game. Are you really that put out if your friend specs in a way that fits their vision of their character, yet plays "good enough" in your group, while not being capital-O optimal?

The other end of the spectrum is when ambition is the whole point of the grouping, the whole point of the game. Literally the only people in this space are those that actually compete professionally. In their case, they are paid to be ambitious. They sell the "soul" of their characters for actual real life money. I can't fault them for that. That is, in that vein, living the dream.

But it IS a dream! It's a dream that most of us will never attain. That's not being a Debbie downer, that's me being honest!

So if you know you won't be a [insert favorite world first team or other pro player here], why would you sell the soul of your character? Why even push that level of ambition that chokes the fun out of the game? PVP? Again unless you're at top levels, comfort with your character should still take precedence.

Just because Blizzard wants to make a competition out of everything doesn't mean we have to stretch outside of our character concept comfort zone for another X percent advantage at the cost of actual enjoyment!

You can be ambitious, or you can have choice. It's your decision to make, but you are not a slave to ambition ("tension, your permanent condition!"-Crowded House). You just aren't. It's not a reflection of real life attitude or success, this is just a game, and a game should be fun. If your choices feel forced... step back and look at whether the pressure of ambition you feel is honestly worth the death of choice.

Me speaking for me, I will pick my covenants on character concepts. For those of you who "know your characters," I am here to validate for you, if you need it, that this decision is ok. Access level play will never be gated behind ambition. That's the nature of modern WoW. You will level, you will see it all, and if you play with friends and are real with yourself and each other, choice and the fun it brings is yours to reap.

Only you can rob yourself of the fun of choice. You aren't required to have crippling ambition to be a decent player or, and I can't believe I have to say this but... to be a decent person.

Thank you for reading. Be kind to yourself.

Good read.

I play at mythic raiding level and around 15-20 keystone level and only expect people I play with to play their best, giving all. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you're a rogue, dh, enhancement or whatever as long as you try you best. I also expect you and me to not be a burden when required. If we're not beating a boss due to lack of DPS and we play some suboptimal spec, say infinite stars against a 100% AoE fight, then we should switch to twilight devestation or echoing void for us to down said boss.

As long as we're beating stuff, I don't care what you play and I'd play whatever fitts my playstyle. I might also be way better player with a suboptimal spec that I know every aspect about than switching to a spec that is better but I don't really know how to play or enjoy.

The character fantasy is 70% why I play. Sadly, it's not that easy because Blizzard limits you to this or that. Corruption is a great system the alows me to mess around with different corruptions without the feeling of not being alowed to try things because I don't have the required reputation or some abilities are exclusive due to which faction you dedicate your time to.

Then, what is fun? It's something very subjective, no? I have friends that only enjoy toping damage charts who don't mind playing with a pleb like me but they would still never do something suboptimal. They even pick race only based on racials and do not care about how the character look. Which is completely fine but it's what they enjoy.

You can still have high ambition while playing low level content because you want to become better, or want to overcome things that's difficult. That's also fun.

One should focus on what is their fun and go for it. Ambition, silliness, thrill, social interaction, you name it.

[Orwell7]

Hey OP!

Really good read! And I "miss those days".
You know, the problem RIGHT NOW (in Legion, Bfa and now Shadowlands) is NOT the conflict you are talking about (optimization vs choice)

The problem right now is that we USED TO a game where you can choose FREELY. Retalent, re-glyph, switch specs, etc.
It is fun. You COULD optimize your character fight-by-fight if you wanted to - EASILY.

Now you're limited artificially. You HAVE to choose for a long-time. The game does NOT let you try things out "right now".
That is the problem!

(also, there are SO MUCH passive things going on which are RNG that obfuscates what is a good choice and what is not, and only sims can help you with that. what you DO, which abilities you use with various talents/azerite/trinkets SHOULD be the one-and-only metric of someone's skill, and not RNG corruption (titanforging!) bullshit)

[Lazuli]

Imagine Blizzard designing abilities without dps disparity and actually giving us a choice on what feels the best.

They know everyones gonna use the best ability / talent / whatever and leave the rest useless, it probably saves them dev time while they pretend they gave us a choice in the matter. Like outlaw rogues slice n dice has been useless for 2 expansions and that was put on a talent row. Its just 1 example off the top of my head. They are the ones that determine what is going to be chosen and they balance everything around that. They prevent other options by not buffing the weak stuff to be equal or at the very least similar in dps.

Imagine a ret pally in BfA using concecrate.. never seen it, huh? That's because its a useless talent. 20 sec cd rofl.

Blizzard is the enemy of choice, and its not always about minor dps losses, sometimes its fucking huge and a lots of choices are literally just so trash it would be silly to choose them.

[Laughingjack]

you will be able to switch covenants, it just wont be as convenient as pushing single button

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this, i knew as soon as ive seen necrolord plate mog that they are my choice for my frost dk no matter the abilities or any other shit

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they will expect it while they wont have ot, or will have it only thanks to boost and will terribly underperform, so... fuck them? any reasonable leader in pug will not expect you to be 100% optimised

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that... is just a look? thats not combination of look and abilities, that is LITERALLY just look...

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did i miss something or did you pull this out of your ass?
i know they said it will not be as easy as puishing the button to change the covenant, but i dont recall any rep grind being mentioned

You missed something but granted that something was a while ago near when Shadow Lands was first announced. They stated they wanted switching to be similar to the old TBC Aldor and Scryers factions. It was mentioned in a early interview.

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This is precisely why I use the term "access level content" in my approach to this entire topic. Difficulty levels exist for this reason. Normal and heroic 5-mans are intended for people without consistent groups. LFR is for them as well. There is no shame in literally stopping there. You will see it all, and between these offerings and world quests, you can remain "good enough" for an entire expansion. Even the mythic 0 dungeons eventually come to this level.

Going beyond access level is 1000% the player's own choice and potentially problem. Yes, the non-automated group finder "thrives" ... in its notorious cesspool of toxicity, but it's a bandaid that's there so Blizzard's ass is covered. That doesn't mean you're meant to rely on that to do your M+ and your "serious" raiding. They will never tell you you're wrong to go above access level content without your own team, but it's quite obviously implied by how hands off the devs get on trying to rein in the wild west of non-automated LFG: It's assumed you're only using it at your own risk. The curated experiences of automated group assembly are the access level, the intended level for the unguilded, the swing-shift workers (*raises hand*) and anyone else that just shouldn't need to hope the community lets them progress.

To rein this back into the topic: Nothing in that access level will be tuned to give a damn what covenant you're in, and proceeding beyond access level is done at one's own risk, and ideally with friends that, once again, if they are actual friends, are not judging you on your covenant choice.

Right... and nothing about the game would change for you if it was treated as a normal talent row either... Arguing for a contrived barrier doesn't make sense.

[PointerToAddress]

Might not be relevant to you, but most serious group leaders (and even some of the Unserious ones) will always take the person with the best ability, No matter if it's 3% or more.

But things are never that clear. You wont find someone with your exact same gear with your exact same skill level on your guild pressing the exact same skills at the same time. That is never the case. Your guild/group will invite you because you do better at your class overall. Does the extra 3% help you to get that higher ceiling? For sure, but that isn't gonna be de deciding factor between a kill or not. Can you evade bad stuff, can you dps while moving and dodging, can you do mechanics and move quickly from one spot to another, can you use your cd's at the right time, etc. That stuff is more important than 3% damage/heals and if you do that stuff right it will be the difference between a blue and an orange parse.

And that's assuming that X ability that does 3% more is best on all encounters when that will probably won't be the case. So you may not have the highest ceiling on fight A but on fight B you will do marginally better.

[Omedon]

I'll look at class guides for an idea on what to pick but for the most part will test some stuff out and find a play style I like to play, I don't really care for min/maxing

This is how I do it as well. I'll use a site like icy veins to either break a tie between two conceptually relevant talents, or take suggestions on a talent tier where nothing jumps out at me from the perspective of my character's concept.

[LuminaL]

I don't really know many players that give a shit about a 5% difference. But they're clearly the loudest on the internet.

But I'd also like to point out, there is fault that needs to be laid at the feet of the developers as well. WoW used to have a lot of weird talent builds you could go with, lots of glyphs, etc. Now, for the sake of making up for players being "sub-optimal" they've decided to just narrowly design the specs into what they've decided is the correct way to play it, with all of the light up buttons that you need to press. You get a few talent choices but that's really all the control you have over the mechanics of your gameplay.

Compare that to a game like ESO where the developers give you 2 resource pools and dozens of ability options to build your own mechanics. I think a lot of people who only play WoW can't even grasp how much freedom there is in other MMOs to build your character in interesting ways.

So blame it on mix maxers if you want, but the developers clearly think the same and are designing the game that way.

I used to play Archeage, an asian mmorpg, aside from the typical asian rpg grinding it had, it was fantastic how much choice you had in everything about your character, spells, talents, your class or even the type of armor oyu wanted to use.

[Omedon]

Guess you are in for a rude awakening when people start sayin "X covenant only"

Situations like that are self-filtering though.

They don't want to invite you...

But who the hell wants to play with them?

[Rendark]

If i'm raiding, even if its just heroic, why wouldn't i pick the thing that gives me the most dps?

[Kendros]

The problem is the bolded part. The overwhelming focus on performance and the mentality that somehow not performing at your maximun potential in the group setting of a game is "selfish".

It's ingrained in part of the community (a very small part, but a vocal one) to a point that people think it's ok to borderline bully others into performing excellently.

Id argue that you being a liability to your group and not caring about it is selfish and stupid. Thank god io and logs exists.