Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[fallenangel-succ]

If you can choose between two players of the same spec with similar skill level, one with the right Covenant/Legendary and other with wrong Covenant/Legendary, of course you should pick the one right items/abilities. The worse one can get pity spot of there are still room in the group.

Why are you restricting this to same spec? This is not the real choice PUGs or guilds make.
The fact is that class is a much bigger differentiator than anything else. And you can't swap classes at all. So really you should petition for the removal of all classes bar 1.

[Lolites]

If your looking for meaningful choices your looking in the wrong place in MMO's.

why, i think how they want to handle it with covenant its great, you CAN change it but not just by switch, you have to work for it

[Michael Jackson]

another expansion, another shitshow, and we're not even in alpha yet
show's just getting started

[Gorsameth]

why, i think how they want to handle it with covenant its great, you CAN change it but not just by switch, you have to work for it

And for cosmetics that can work, but for gamreplay you run into big issues as explained many times in this very thread.

[arandomuser]

People said this about Azerite gear for months without any response from the devs.

Expect these to be just as bad.

as someone who played the befa beta, azerite armor didnt even seem that bad, atleast not for leveling and uldir, its really only bad when you as ion said, apply the anything that sims higher is automatically better, there is tons of differnt builds and talents you COULD run, but your raid leader and community would ostracize you if you didnt. any system they make will have this problem, but only in bfa has the min maxing stuff really been so far reaching where i see heroic guilds tell people they have to sim their char and run what raidbots tells them or they wont get invited to raid, and the acquisition itself was bad for the azerite armor but overall in uldur i didnt think azerite wasnt bad at all, in fact i think the double azerite traits in 8.1 made it worst

[VinceVega]

Well unless their fun covenant is the top DPS for their spec, it will. No way around that fact.

Not in a way that i will really matter.

It is one ability. And as most of them read as if the have a big CD.

Also picking another does not make you do no dmg at all with it. It will just be slightly worse.

For the normal player it will have next to none impact what you choose

[Lahis]

Why are you restricting this to same spec? This is not the real choice PUGs or guilds make.
The fact is that class is a much bigger differentiator than anything else. And you can't swap classes at all. So really you should petition for the removal of all classes bar 1.

So you need one of a class to the group because of their utility. One gas better covenant tgan the other, you take the better covenant.

[unbound]

lmao what, "why is this early, not-balance-tweaked version of the abilities so out of whack?" <- This is you.

lol...it's just alpha, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it's just beta, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it just got released, Blizz will fix it with an off-cycle fix in a couple of weeks
lol...it's only been a couple of weeks, Blizz will fix it in the x.1 patch
lol...it's just the first patch, Blizz was busy with other things...it'll all be fixed in the x.2 patch

^ - This is you

[Lahis]

Not in a way that i will really matter.

It is one ability. And as most of them read as if the have a big CD.

Also picking another does not make you do no dmg at all with it. It will just be slightly worse.

For the normal player it will have next to none impact what you choose

Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

This WILL effect everyone.

[Zuben]

Absolutely, same here. I sure hope any cosmetics I unlock will apply to all armour types - but as it is, atm I will make my choice on RPG reasons.

Kyrian for Priest / Paladin
Necrolords for Warlock, DK
Fae for Druid
Venthyr for Warrior

Undecided on all my other alts...of which I have many

Since Legion I've played less WoW than I used to, so I've effectively abandoned most of my alts and focus on my Horde main (mage) and Alliance alt (shaman). Since my mage is the one I'm spending 85% of my gametime on I'm choosing the covenant more by what interests me the most than what fits a mage. That's why I'm going with Venthyr, effectively a Gilneas on steroids. Undecided what the shaman gets, as the remaining three each have their pros and cons in a pretty equal measure. I'll make my choice on that once I've experienced the areas in-game.

[Lolites]

And for cosmetics that can work, but for gamreplay you run into big issues as explained many times in this very thread.

only issue is you have to choose if minor dmg increase (assuming one ability will be better in ALL scenarios) is worth not getting the cosmetics you want...
and yes, one ability coulc overperform by huge margin in every situation, but if thats the case it will get nerfed...

[NineSpine]

Come on. Blizzard knows exactly that a large part of the playerbase cares about their performance. Forcing those players to choose between performance and aesthetics is absolutely on Blizzard since they're the ones who designed this system.

I mean, it's cool that you don't care about these things but many people do and it can really negatively impact their experience.

It negatively impacts a lot more peoples' experience that the game is constantly being watered down and homogenized, with all semblance of specialization and gameplay customization sucked out in order to appease a small contingent of people who is never happy because they want an impossible level of "balance".

- - - Updated - - -

Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

This WILL effect everyone.

That's not how I think and that's not how a single person I play with thinks.

[Todesbote]

This is wrong.

These abilities will NOT be balanced. Not because it is Alpha now and not because it will be Beta later. These are absolutely irrelevant. The abilities WILL NOT be balanced. They cannot be. There are 12 classes, 48 abilities. Each does a different thing and thus one will always be better for a specific situation. You cannot pick more than one. You pick one. If it is too good, it will be nerfed. If it is too bad, it will be buffed. But they will never be balanced. Forget about that. It is not possible.

Even if Paladin's Kyrian ability was:

1 min CD, 1 sec cast time, 40 yard range, deals 10 000 damage to 1 enemy.

And Mage's Venthyr ability was:

1 min CD, 1 sec cast time, 40 yard range, deals 10 000 damage to 1 enemy.

It would STILL NOT be balanced. Because of how differently those classes play and how well those abilities synergize with the rest of their kit. It is simply not a possible calculation. So stop crying about stuff being OP or unbalanced. That's not the issue here. The issue would be, being unable to switch between these abilities at will. Because that will piss people off. Not them being OP or weak. So stop giving the wrong feedback, stop crying about the wrong things. You're just creating NOISE.

so much this.

what worries me is that they said they want to put more weight on "player decisions" and are planning to make it very hard/time consuming to switch between those abilities. given that those abilities will be completely imbalanced 100% this means people might feel compelled to level their class several times to keep their options open.

[Lolites]

Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

This WILL effect everyone.

thats NOT how players think
some do, some dont, dont generalise all players...
by your logic, as a frost dk i should never get spot in anything more than a hc dungeon as unholy is always performing better in sims, but turns out if you dont go for hall of fame or +30mythic it DOESNT FUCKING MATTER that you do slightly less dmg...

if all people trully cared about it as much as you claim, some classes/specs would never get to raid/m+

[Adam Jensen]

lol...it's just alpha, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it's just beta, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it just got released, Blizz will fix it with an off-cycle fix in a couple of weeks
lol...it's only been a couple of weeks, Blizz will fix it in the x.1 patch
lol...it's just the first patch, Blizz was busy with other things...it'll all be fixed in the x.2 patch

^ - This is you

lol... bitching about things I haven't even played yet

^ - This is you (and a significant amount of other posters in this thread. I should open a salt mine)

[NineSpine]

so much this.

what worries me is that they said they want to put more weight on "player decisions" and are planning to make it very hard/time consuming to switch between those abilities. given that those abilities will be completely imbalanced 100% this means people might feel compelled to level their class several times to keep their options open.

Or you could just pick the covenant that seems cool to you.

[Razorice]

I think the abilities look great, it's the balance that might be an issue and also switching from ST to AoE is probably going to be hard.
Though having 2-3 characters of the same class might fix the issue.

[~Valen~]

This insane drive for balance is what damaged WoW... be careful what you wish.

[VinceVega]

Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

This WILL effect everyone.

That whole self regulating thing is something i have only seen in forums.

I was never asked if i have Infinite Stars, Twilight devastation or 3 pieces of Streaking stars.... not ONCE! this whole expansion. And i have never played with someone who asked this. For a short time you got a faster invite if you postet that you have IS3 before the nerf.

This is one of those weird "urban legends" where everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who this has happend to.

Or the poster himself says it happens to himself ALL THE TIME.

Like i said in another post. Many people will choose the best option for them. But i don't really see how this is different than any other decision in this game. I play Moonkin. Mages are better in Mythic plus. Why can't i switch my character to mage as needed. FF14 does it.

[Nerovar]

impactful choice is the one that have consequences that you have to deal with, doesnt matter if good or bad,
talents dont have that at all, as you can simply switch them - dont even have to go to town, just use a book and switch, simple as that
now, IF you could only switch talents lets say once a week, that could be impactful choice

Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.

then they also force you to play best class and spec i guess?

Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.

Then go by what is more important to you. 1,5% more dps or making choices that fit your character and the Lore. Really the problem is that you are dramatizing the whole afair. There will be some balance between the Covenants, but it won't be perfect, just as class balance is there, but not perfect. The difference will never be so big that it makes your class unplayable, it will be a few percent at most.

What are you basing this on? I haven't seen any numbers so far and the spells that were presented are mechnically very different. Some classes already have obvious BiS options for certain content (such as Necrolords for DKs in PvP). The fact that you're not acknowledging this shows that you're either being wilfully ignorant to make a point or lack the understanding of the game to realize how this will impact gameplay. This is not "dramatizing" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you want to spin it.

And you don't think Blizzard saw all the whining about that in the last 5 month? The entire system could have been changed by now and we would never know since we never saw how punishing it was meant to be when they conceived the system.
We do not even know what difficulties they meant. Will we have to invest time to switch Covenants as in refarming or will we have to spend a few weeks worth of Anima on it and be done instantly? You just want to assume the worst case, because that drama is so delicious.

Again, I'm basing this on Blizzard's statement about wanting to make it punishing for players who switch their covenants which is something I disagree with in principle. Speculating about how Blizzard might or might not have changed their stance on the issue is irrelevant since they haven't chosen to reveal that information yet. It's funny how I'm the one who simply argues based on what Blizzard has presented whereas you're making points based on what they haven't revealed yet while inferring malintent on my side.

I was refering to the level on which you would apply this... that probably went over your head. The point is, looking to the 5% of MDI and Mythic Raiders that actually NEED to perform at the absolute top, for gameplay decisions is foolish. The game is balanced around Heroic level and every class can perform there, with some pulling ahead.
My personal observation is however that the people that are actually competetive easily make up for the inherent differences in class balance by putting time and effort into their chosen class, while the meta victims on their FoTM classes regularly fall behind because they do not bring the experience with the classes.

Well, if you look at PvP these thing start to matter fairly quickly and not just if you're aiming for R1. If you have a spell like the Necrolord DK covenant ability that provides you with incredible PvP utility and you're playing against a DK who doesn't have that then this will have a very noticeable impact on your chances of winning. It's that simple.

You seem to make a habit of calling every last argument leveled against you as "non-argument", "ridiculous" or "inconsequential", so I doubt this post will fare any better.

Feel free to tell my how class inbalance is an argument for creating more imbalance and I'll row back on that.

It negatively impacts a lot more peoples' experience that the game is constantly being watered down and homogenized, with all semblance of specialization and gameplay customization sucked out in order to appease a small contingent of people who is never happy because they want an impossible level of "balance".

Please explain to me how covenant abilities wouldn't be "gameplay customization" if you could switch between them more easily.