Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[NineSpine]

This insane drive for balance is what damaged WoW... be careful what you wish.

This. These people will never, ever be happy until the game has one class, one spec, and gear is cosmetic.

[Azerate]

Yeah I also think it's pretty weird. I was under the impression the intention was to let people choose based on the visuals, looks and atmosphere of each covenant. I guess not. These abilities listed have too much impact on gameplay for it to ever be balanced.

The only way to fix this while keeping those skills like that is to make all of them available to everyone, and just give visual upgrades to them based on the covenant you are in.

PS. And yeah, it wouldn't be a problem if the difference was sub 1% of the output, like in the case of racial abilities. But this has potential to have way more influence than that. Hopefully they tune it properly according to feedback at least.

[NineSpine]

Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.


Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.


What are you basing this on? I haven't seen any numbers so far and the spells that were presented are mechnically very different. Some classes already have obvious BiS options for certain content (such as Necrolords for DKs in PvP). The fact that you're not acknowledging this shows that you're either being wilfully ignorant to make a point or lack the understanding of the game to realize how this will impact gameplay. This is not "dramatizing" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you want to spin it.


Again, I'm basing this on Blizzard's statement about wanting to make it punishing for players who switch their covenants which is something I disagree with in principle. Speculating about how Blizzard might or might not have changed their stance on the issue is irrelevant since they haven't chosen to reveal that information yet. It's funny how I'm the one who simply argues based on what Blizzard has presented whereas you're making points based on what they haven't revealed yet while inferring malintent on my side.


Well, if you look at PvP these thing start to matter fairly quickly and not just if you're aiming for R1. If you have a spell like the Necrolord DK covenant ability that provides you with incredible PvP utility and you're playing against a DK who doesn't have that then this will have a very noticeable impact on your chances of winning. It's that simple.


Feel free to tell my how class inbalance is an argument for creating more imbalance and I'll row back on that.

If you want to prioritize min-maxing, that's a choice you are making. Stop trying to take away choices for the rest of us just because you don't want to have to make a choice in an RPG.

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Yeah I also think it's pretty weird. I was under the impression the intention was to let people choose based on the visuals, looks and atmosphere of each covenant. I guess not. These abilities listed have too much impact on gameplay for it to ever be balanced.

The only way to fix this while keeping those skills like that is to make all of them available to everyone, and just give visual upgrades to them based on the covenant you are in.

Having the core feature of the expansion being nothing more than a changing room for cosmetics is one of the most profoundly stupid ideas I have ever heard.

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Please explain to me how covenant abilities wouldn't be "gameplay customization" if you could switch between them more easily.

Hot-swappable abilities are just baseline abilities. That's not customization. If every single person of your class has the exact same thing and can switch between them at-will, you are all the same.

[Todesbote]

Or you could just pick the covenant that seems cool to you.

Yeah. You could also pick the Azerite traits that sound the most fun to you. You could also use the corruption item that sound coolest.

OR: You could play the game competitively in PvP/Raid content and try your best to get the best performance out of your character.

I will let you take a guess how many players in this game fall into group 1 & 2 respectively.

[VinceVega]

lol...it's just alpha, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it's just beta, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
lol...it just got released, Blizz will fix it with an off-cycle fix in a couple of weeks
lol...it's only been a couple of weeks, Blizz will fix it in the x.1 patch
lol...it's just the first patch, Blizz was busy with other things...it'll all be fixed in the x.2 patch

^ - This is you

Well considering we are not even at the FIRST of those points....

[Lahis]

thats NOT how players think
some do, some dont, dont generalise all players...
by your logic, as a frost dk i should never get spot in anything more than a hc dungeon as unholy is always performing better in sims, but turns out if you dont go for hall of fame or +30mythic it DOESNT FUCKING MATTER that you do slightly less dmg...

if all people trully cared about it as much as you claim, some classes/specs would never get to raid/m+

You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?

[Nerovar]

If you want to prioritize min-maxing, that's a choice you are making. Stop trying to take away choices for the rest of us just because you don't want to have to make a choice in an RPG.

Again, what makes you think these chosing between these abilities wouldn't still be a choice if you could swap them out whenever you want to play different content? The only choice this promotes (as it exists right now) is a choice between cosmetics and the ability that actually matters for the content you'll play most of the time and maybe if you're lucky these two will overlap.

Hot-swappable abilities are just baseline abilities. That's not customization. If every single person of your class has the exact same thing and can switch between them at-will, you are all the same.

So choosing talents and gear isn't customization because other people can choose the same talents and the same gear?

[NineSpine]

Yeah. You could also pick the Azerite traits that sound the most fun to you. You could also use the corruption item that sound coolest.

OR: You could play the game competitively in PvP/Raid content and try your best to get the best performance out of your character.

I will let you take a guess how many players in this game fall into group 1 & 2 respectively.

Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.

If you want to prioritize min-mazing, that's a CHOICE you are making. Enjoy your CHOICE.

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Again, what makes you think these chosing between these abilities wouldn't still be a choice if you could swap them out whenever you want to play different content? The only choice this promotes (as it exists right now) is a choice between cosmetics and the ability that actually matters for the content you'll play most of the time and maybe if you're lucky these two will overlap.

The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.

[Lazuli]

INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".

Look where that got us in BFA, nothing has changed since beta, we were given shitty azerite armor and horrible class design.

Don't get your hopes up, expect these "rental" abilities to be absolute shit. There will always be a bis ability and a go to for pvp.

Look where that got us in legion with tons of sweeping nerfs and buffs upwards of 50% or more very early on.. quite funny if you think about it. Its pretty clear that they don't use PTR/beta for feedback. 90% of the time its gonna release as is and the whole time you have these silly geese saying oh don't worry it's just alpha/beta its not tuned yet *teehee!!!*

This game is a clown fiesta as balance goes

[NineSpine]

You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?

Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?

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Look where that got us in legion with tons of sweeping nerfs and buffs upwards of 50% or more very early on.. quite funny if you think about it. Its pretty clear that they don't use PTR/beta for feedback. 90% of the time its gonna release as is and the whole time you have these silly geese saying oh don't worry it's just alpha/beta its not tuned yet *teehee!!!*

The purpose is to find bugs and tune things, not to decide whether to radically alter the core design of the product.

[tyrlaan]

10 pages of people bitching about ability balance when there are...

...no numbers listed against any of these abilities
...also soulbinds to take into account when it comes to covenant choice

And let's not forget that most of the min/maxing whinging people do in this game is probably not even relevant to them because the extra 0.5% doesn't actually make that much of a difference unless your a hardcore raiding guild pushing content for world firsts.

But haters gotta hate I guess.

[Lahis]

Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?

Or maybe he is the piece of shit.

When you have the easy option to do much better DPS, why wouldn't you take it?

[NineSpine]

So choosing talents and gear isn't customization because other people can choose the same talents and the same gear?

Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.

[Lolites]

Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.

Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.

there is no consequences to talents you just choose which is better for fight...
does my Frostscythe talent impact me during single target fight? not at all, i just wont use it even if i have it talented... but ill change it for frozen pulse, so only impact is i spend 2seconds and couple golds for book to respec before boss...

as for "class falacy" - are you seriously telling me that single ability with minor impact force you to choose "bad" covenant, but its fine to play underperforming class/spec?
so it doesnt matter you play melee class/spec that is doing 10-15% less dps than the top one, BCS you have chosen "best" covenant, which increase your dps by 1-2% (hell, even if 5%, even though if that hapens it will get nerfed)? if you are FORCED to perform the best, then you surely should pick different class (which happens in world first race) rather than just change covenant to "best"...
hell, unless they seriously overtune them (which would be completely different issue) a single trinket could have bigger impact than those abilities, but ive never have raid leader tell me "sorry, you cant go, you dont have BIS trinket"

[Laughingjack]

Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.

If you want to prioritize min-mazing, that's a CHOICE you are making. Enjoy your CHOICE.

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The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.

Few things here you are either leaving out or flat out ignoring...

You don't "pick" one covenant you help all four one in each zone. The idea that only one will "lend" you their power is already contrived from a story point of view.

Nothing about the game would change for you if covenants were treated the same as any other talent row. Blizzard trying to punish people who enjoy multiple aspects of their game at high levels seems self destructive and played out poorly in BFA when the cost was only gold to respec Azerite.

[NineSpine]

Or maybe he is the piece of shit.

When you have the easy option to do much better DPS, why wouldn't you take it?

Because it's a video game, not the fucking SATs.

[Laughingjack]

Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.

This... this honestly doesn't make any sense... What you are describing is the definition of customization...

What you are arguing for is permanence and a lack of customization and I don't think many people are on board with judging by the posts.

[Todesbote]

Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.

No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.

[NineSpine]

Few things here you are either leaving out or flat out ignoring...

You don't "pick" one covenant you help all four one in each zone. The idea that only one will "lend" you their power is already contrived from a story point of view.

Nothing about the game would change for you if covenants were treated the same as any other talent row. Blizzard trying to punish people who enjoy multiple aspects of their game at high levels seems self destructive and played out poorly in BFA when the cost was only gold to respec Azerite.

You help all four and then are faced with a choice between them. The intent of helping them all is to give you a good idea of what they are all about before you make the decision. The entire covenant progression system is unique to each covenant.

You aren't being "punished" you fucking baby. Get a grip on reality, whiner.

[Nerovar]

The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.

Who cares about that if it hampers the actual gameplay and turns it into frustrating system? This isn't 2004 WoW. We can switch specialisations with the click of a button but somehow switching out covenant abilities goes too far? I don't understand what exactly you're arguing for here.

Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.

Okay, I get it now.
Old gear was more interesting and impactful and therefor was "customization" even though it was always hot-swappable.
Talents currently are interesting and impactful but they're not "customization" because they're hot-swappable.