Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[Laughingjack]

Yes, it does. If you are exactly the same all the time, you are not customized. The fucking upside-down world you have all erected to defend your delusions is amazing.



Nothing in BFA was substantive customization like we are talking about.

Nothing is forcing you pick the best talent just because other people are free to switch talents... if you feel compelled that is on you not the community. If nothing was "substantive customization" in bfa then I doubt you consider covenant abilities that either...

[Lolites]

Why even play DPS role if you don't aim to do the best you could?

sure i do, i aim to be the best frost icecap DK i could... now what help would it be if i play something i dont enjoy just to be a little bit stronger? if i wanted that i would play completely different class...
and even if i respec, i wouldnt be the best unholy DK i could simply bcs i fucking hate the spec gameplay... if you wish to sacrifice your mental health for minor DPS increase, be my guest, i wont do that...

[Sinfelle]

And still doesn't take into account soulbinds.

And what if the extra fury is tiny gains? Still BIS?

Sorry, I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

But have fun complaining that you need 0.5% more DPS so you have "no choice" but to pick a certain Covenant.

I’m one of the top Havoc DH’s in NA, I can almost guarantee you are a LFR raider. Go ahead and link your character if you’re not.

Soulbinds won’t be as big of an issue and can be tweaked better as they are most likely small passive effects.

To balance mechanically imbalanced abilities they would need to shove the OP one so far in the dirt that it would just become useless afterwards. So in the case of “The Hunt” it would need an ridiculously long cool down or only provide 1-3 extra fury to not become dominant. In which case it’s not worth taking in any case, and has now become a dead ability which isn’t fun for anyone.

So please, stfu unless you know what you’re talking about. These aren’t .5% dps increases. You probably can’t recall players losing raid spots, or not getting invited to groups because they didn’t have the BiS legandaries in the beginning of Legion. But the forums were flooded with them. So it was a very real problem, and it will be again if they don’t address it.

[NineSpine]

So you're implying doing best possible performance is not fun? That only playing badly is fun?

Isn't that literally what you guys are here to argue? You are saying that it is unfair to force you to choose between picking the FUN covenant and picking the OPTIMAL covenant. YOUR argument is that optimization is distinct from fun, and that is why you are upset.

[Laughingjack]

Until we have actual numbers for covenant abilities, it's not a strawman.

I mean... unless you are really,really,really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see a different between a movement and do more dmg ability...

[Todesbote]

What percentage of players complete the mythic raid every tier. I'll wait.

So once again. Caring about the performance of my character means I have to clear the mythic raid every tier. Gotcha.

[Lolites]

Guilds whose roster can do that, will do that.

guilds that aim for hall of fame or have leader with OCD will do that, or those that by accident have guild full of good players playing just the classes that are best at the moment

[Nachtigal]

Ah, so you agree with my points. So the question is only how many people care about "min-maxing"/getting the best performance out of their character and how many people don't. I would say that at least 50% or more (a majority) of players care about getting the best performance out of their character.

I would say you’re probably wrong. I would agree with the majority of mythic raiders care about getting the best performance from their characters. But definitely not players in general.

Though to raise a point against my own opinion, I could possibly be wrong myself. If one were to say that over 50% of players care to get the best performance out of their mains... then I suppose it’s feasible my opinion could be molded from only playing with peoples alts and thus creating the illusion nobody gives a damn about how they play.

[Shinrael]

1) Not exactly true. We have gotten the Initial Draft of Abilities.
And its a good thing if concerns are made beeing heard. Especially after other "First Designs" massivly failed.


2) And thats the Problem, the concept in itself will (most likely) make people (at least me) Unhappy, because one (at least I) cannot choose correct.

1) You are talking about design (concept) but you are quoting me talking about numbers. Yes, now is the time to judge the design/concept. No you cannot judge the numbers because you do not have the numbers. You don't even know the cooldowns and cast times of these abilities, let alone their damage values, etc.

2) Can you give an example of a power progression system where you can choose correct before testing/simming it? Genuine curiousity, no offense intended.

[Laughingjack]

Isn't that literally what you guys are here to argue? You are saying that it is unfair to force you to choose between picking the FUN covenant and picking the OPTIMAL covenant. YOUR argument is that optimization is distinct from fun, and that is why you are upset.

I mean your definition of fun only exists if you find " OMG SO RNG" fun.

You are arguing in favor of a talent row to be drastically altered to require a grind to respec all because without you are annoyed for some strange reason that players will pick the best talents for the content they are currently doing rather then lock themselves in for "muh rp"

[NineSpine]

Nothing is forcing you pick the best talent just because other people are free to switch talents... if you feel compelled that is on you not the community. If nothing was "substantive customization" in bfa then I doubt you consider covenant abilities that either...

I never said I was forced to pick the best talent. Don't impose your OCD on me.

I said that if we all have access to the SAME ABILITIES ALL THE TIME, we aren't customized.

[Laughingjack]

I never said I was forced to pick the best talent. Don't impose your OCD on me.

I said that if we all have access to the SAME ABILITIES ALL THE TIME, we aren't customized.

I have to assume that is the heart of your argument. I can't come up with a logical argument for wanting to be locked into talents otherwise without it becoming a weird personal emotional thing.

[NineSpine]

I mean your definition of fun only exists if you find " OMG SO RNG" fun.

You are arguing in favor of a talent row to be drastically altered to require a grind to respec all because without you are annoyed for some strange reason that players will pick the best talents for the content they are currently doing rather then lock themselves in for "muh rp"

The covenant is not just a talent row. First of all, it's TWO abilities, not one. Second of all, it comes will a full progression system including what amounts to multiple seperate mini talent trees.

[Nerovar]

I never said I was forced to pick the best talent. Don't impose your OCD on me.

I said that if we all have access to the SAME ABILITIES ALL THE TIME, we aren't customized.

Wait, but you said earlier that old gear was customization. Gear was always hot-swappable.

[Lolites]

So you're implying doing best possible performance is not fun? That only playing badly is fun?

if you have a choice between doing job that fulfils you, that you like, and you make solid money OR you would get 20% more money for job that you hate, which would you choose?
i know some people would choose the later, but that doesnt mean its right or good choice...

[NineSpine]

I have to assume that is the heart of your argument. I can't come up with a logical argument for wanting to be locked into talents otherwise without it becoming a weird personal emotional thing.

Because in an RPG I want my character to be meaningfully distinct from other characters.

[Laughingjack]

The covenant is not just a talent row. First of all, it's TWO abilities, not one. Second of all, it comes will a full progression system including what amounts to multiple seperate mini talent trees.

It is a talent row. Maybe you can argue two one passive utility and one usually passive damage with a few activated depending on class but it is just a recolored talent row. Just like the essence UI is just a re-skinned glyph menu.

It's progression system is also as far as we know solely based on mindless grinding like ap as well. Hardly something that should be wanted much less defended.

[NineSpine]

Wait, but you said earlier that old gear was customization. Gear was always hot-swappable.

And if every character of every class has handed a complete set of every piece of equipment you can possibly have, with the ability to carry it all and change it on the fly, that would be a compelling and interesting point.

[bowchikabow]

For those of you using Azerite as a supposed response to the matter of Covenant abilities.. Azerite was added MUCH later into the cycle, and WAS NOT EVEN balance tested until the limited time PvP testing. Meanwhile, this feature is being added in the first few Closed Alpha builds. Which tells me 2 things:

1- They may have actually meant it when they said they learned lessons from the BfA alpha/beta
2- That this will be more core to the expack than Azerite was to BfA and so they want to get all the iterated information they can.

BfA was a RREEAALL eye opener to them that they no longer have the customers blind trust and good will. And even if they are a heartless corporate shill, they still want money... Which they won't get if they turn out an dogshit expack again (since so many people are legit sour from BfA there might actually be a mass exodus).

[NineSpine]

It is a talent row. Maybe you can argue two one passive utility and one usually passive damage with a few activated depending on class but it is just a recolored talent row. Just like the essence UI is just a re-skinned glyph menu.

It's progression system is also as far as we know solely based on mindless grinding like ap as well. Hardly something that should be wanted much less defended.

It's not just a talent row. It's two abilities and a progression system that gives other benefits. You want to define it as a talent row because that helps your argument, but doubling down on something so obviously not true just shows how bad faith your argument is.

You don't just join the covenant, get one ability, and then never interact with it again. That's not how the system works.