Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[Lolites]

I dont think is problematic having people picking a Covenant just for the abilities (or for the transmogs)

What i think is problematic is the people who pick the ability...will get f'ed if Blizzard nerfs it.

Oh and i already can see the random forum poster telling me "is your fault for picking the ability....noob"
Its going to be a crapshow because of the nerfs.

or they will just swap... even if it takes couple hours to swap (we dont know hows that gonna work) it surely is worth the time if your only criteria for choosing covenant is ability...

[Gorsameth]

Most MMOs have meaningful character customization.

You have race, class, spec, talents and transmog. your have meaningful customization already, as much as another other MMO.

If you want to be a special little snowflake your looking in the wrong place in an MMO.

[NineSpine]

But we cant simply say if person X picked a covenant for the ability he is stupid.
Some people prefer gameplay to roleplay...a lot of people.
What is wrong with that?

Go ahead and pick your covenant based on performance. Nobody is stopping you.

My only problem with this is that I KNOW my ability will get changed...im 10000% sure.
And what then?

The same thing that happens when classes get balance changes. This isn't new.

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You have race, class, spec, talents and transmog. your have meaningful customization already, as much as another other MMO.

If you want to be a special little snowflake your looking in the wrong place in an MMO.

Obviously Blizzard disagrees with you because they made this system, so your condescending personal beliefs about the matter are worthless.

[Miena]

I did start sweating when i read about classes receiving different abilities depending on the covenant they choose. That alone is already hard to get right, and once again we'll have class abilities that are only temporary but probably change up your gameplay style by a lot, which really i'm not a fan of..I'd rather want new spells that define the class more, than get 3rd party abilities of which there will of course be "the best" choice again which is just way more powerful or better to play with then others.

That said there won't only be new abilities based off which covenant you choose. There'll also be those soul trees with passives and so on on TOP OF IT. For EACH covenant.

Now not only would they need to balance all of this in terms of damage/healing etc output, nope, they also have to design every single fight in the expansion with all these abilities in mind. Not to mention PvP...

With azerite gear, you could at least switch it out, albeit with an annoyingly high cost. Once you had pieces with your best traits (which were way better than most other traits), you ofc scrapped the old armor with the worst stats.
But in Shadowlands, you choose the covenant, you greatly invest in it..it's an illusion of choice with lasting reprecussions. Those reprecussions aren't only related to gameplay related issues with your class; there's also social reprecussions because if the balance will be out of whack (which is very likely given the past) the community is gonna put out a lot of pressure on which is the "right" choice to take, and will change the way the game will be played because they have a lot of influence of course on how people will play their classes in different settings.

Even in non-top raiding guilds, there's always players who will want the most strength out of their character both for themselves, and to be the best in their guild environment/logs.
It will create frustration for their fellow raiders if they see some choose a playstyle that's noticably worse even though they keep wiping on this and that boss. I can even see people not taking those who have chosen a bad covenant to higher mplus keys, because it's like saying "idc about playing well or supporting my team lul" even if they do, just not to an extent where they sacrifice their RP game that's seemingly being offered with covenants.
People will feel bad for not picking whats best, because they dont wanna let down their raid team, etc.. it's always been like this, and it's not gonna change this time around either.

It's an illusion of choice. Because in reality, the community is going to set the standards, and once they do choice pretty much flies out of the window as the game is at endgame a multiplayer experience, which ofc depends on other players..and if they wanna play with you.

On top of that, each covenant will have a vast amount of abilities and passives which seem to have a significant impact on how your class is gonna play and perform.

I'm sorry, but after seeing what has happened with Azerite armor and essences, and then on top of that the corrupted armor system after the already big fail systems, i can't say that i'm hyped for this expansion afterall. They overcomplicate things AGAIN, and they will AGAIN have their backs to the wall if they go through with this system, and clean up the whole expansion after it again. In early wow, things went great without any of this 3rd party influencing your class abilities and strengths, because we had gear that mattered, and did that instead. It allowed for flexibility, and a certain security that eventually you'll be able to attain your max power level...through gear/tier sets.

This worked so well and was a fun route of progression for your character as it visibly changed and got stronger at the same time. With the covenants, gear is just gonna be a buncha stats again, and there wont even be tier sets again.

Visually and lore wise Shadowlands is still very interesting to me, but good lord the gameplay implications right now look dire based on how Blizzard has handled these very similar systems in BFA and Legion. I really really hope they'll greatly simplify this, and make covenants much more of a cosmetic and flavor/rp choice than determining your classes core gameplay..
If you make the world relevant and interesting, the covenants could be opening ways for you to experience the world differently (like the nightfae animal forms), rather than change the way you play in the tower, raids, pvp, dungeons etc. Instead, give the classes new abilites by themselves, and let them be the lens through which you see the game as a whole, and let the covenants be the flavor choice.

That's all i really hope for and have to say. I really wanna see Blizz win this time.. i wanna play WoW and have fun again, too. Pls good lord make it happen

[Lolites]

"This insane level of prioritizing performance" - What the fuck does this even mean?

The rest of your post is just opinionated nonsense where you make up an imaginary group of grumpy hardcore people that are ruining your experience. I can't take these posts seriously.

that means choosing ability that is 0,1% better over the one that you like more or over the set or other visual customisation, bcs you think that 0,1% loss of performance will cost you place in raid

[NineSpine]

"This insane level of prioritizing performance" - What the fuck does this even mean?

The rest of your post is just hyperbolic opinionated nonsense where you make up an imaginary group of grumpy hardcore people that are ruining your experience. I can't take these posts seriously.

This thread is full of people crying that if they don't have access to EVERY SINGLE COVENANT ABILITY ALL THE TIME they won't be able to perform properly and the game is ruined for them.

[Big Thanks]

The same thing that happens when classes get balance changes. This isn't new.

HUGE diference

An ability im given the choice to pick is not a "class".

Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.

[NineSpine]

HUGE diference

An ability im given the choice to pick is not a "class".

Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.

Or like picking one of 12 different classes.

[Kokolums]

INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".

People have been saying that about video games for 25 years. Most of the time, there is little to no fine tuning.

[Lolites]

HUGE diference

An ability im given the choice to pick is not a "class".

Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.

you are correct, this is better as you can simply change covenant... just bcs you dont do it via switch but you actualy have to WORK for it doesnt mean its bad...
what happens when they nerf your bis trinket? do you throw tantrum and whine how shity is it or you just go get the one that is NOW your bis?

[Casperite]

It's just alpha, it'll be fine, don't get mad...

It's just beta, it'll be fine, don't get mad...

It just released, it'll be fine, don't get mad...

Wow so original of you to repeat the same the same thing at least 5 others have before you.

[Big Thanks]

you are correct, this is better as you can simply change covenant... just bcs you dont do it via switch but you actualy have to WORK for it doesnt mean its bad...
what happens when they nerf your bis trinket? do you throw tantrum and whine how shity is it or you just go get the one that is NOW your bis?

What happens to the progression of the soulbinds? Do i lose all conduits i farmed and are inside the soulbinds? Do i lose weeks of progression for changing covenants?

A trinket that got nerfed i can switch like i switch farts,..

[Edward Wu]

that means choosing ability that is 0,1% better over the one that you like more or over the set or other visual customisation, bcs you think that 0,1% loss of performance will cost you place in raid

Nobody thinks this. This is you putting words in people's mouths.

We'd be lucky that the abilities only have a 0.1% difference in performance, that's pretty much an unlikely scenario. What will probably happen instead is that abilities will generally have 5-10% difference in performance, and some might even hit 20% difference in performance. When you start getting destroyed by your guild member in dps because he happened to choose a different covenant than you, will you be okay with it? I mean, people whined about that when Legion legendaries caused some people to just skyrocket in dps and destroy their guild mates on sheer account of being lucky - was that also an unjustified complaint? Did you support rng legendaries?

[Hitei]

Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.

That is the same fucking thing as a class.

[Edward Wu]

That is the same fucking thing as a class.

I keep forgetting that the only people who have ever whined about class balance in the history of the game have been super duper hardcore grumpy raiders and nobody else.

[LanToaster]

1) You are talking about design (concept) but you are quoting me talking about numbers. Yes, now is the time to judge the design/concept. No you cannot judge the numbers because you do not have the numbers. You don't even know the cooldowns and cast times of these abilities, let alone their damage values, etc.

2) Can you give an example of a power progression system where you can choose correct before testing/simming it? Genuine curiousity, no offense intended.

Maybe I was Quoting you wrong, but I dont talk about Balancing Numbers. (However I dont really have faith that they manage do properly balance Damage Affecting Skills, didnt even work for simple "Procc X Damage" effects on Corruption, but thats not the point here.)

Furthermore, I dont talk about number based power. But i´ll humor you:
You can almost on the Fly change any and all Spell/Trait/Skill related choices. So it doesnt matter if you choose "Poor", "Wrong", or suboptimal. Pay 10G if you need to change it. So other things you need to Sim/Test it dont Punish you for Choosing wrong.

The Problem here however lies that you make a singular Choice of your Covenant, (which is, judging from the Blizzcon reveal, not meant to be easily changed) and get 4 different things.
1. Unique Transmog - There are countless people (me included) who value that stuff.
2. A General Skill - 2 Movement Skills, 1 Defensive Cooldown and 1 Auxilery Skill where its not even clear if you can actually use that in Battle.
3. A Class skill - Which vary GREATLY from Class and Specc, and there is no real common ground between the Covenants.
4. A Talent Tree - Which we know nothing of yet.

Now, I feel its almost Impossible to make an Informed choice factoring in all these Aspects. E.g.
Someone mentioned the "Hunt" skill for the DH, and I agree from its Description it sounds like the most logical Choice of the Class skills, that would lock me in a for DemonHunter rather Useless Mobility Skill, I would rather have from the General Skills the defensive Skill, or the one which removes Debuffs, (which is something that helps the DemonHunter alot).

From my (Main) Tank Paladin perspective, I would love to take Kyrean for their Appearance, but as I play a Dwarf the General skill is Useless to me, and the kyrrean Class Skill is basically just a "several Target" silence (for Tanks), which is (in my Opinion) really really niche.
From a Skill Perspective I would feel the need to take Necro, for the Additional Defensive Skill, but that locks me out of the Nice Visuals, as the Necro Visuals are the Opposite of what a Paladin should wear (in my Opinion).

As its right now, I would not be Happy with either Choice. If I were to choose for appearance I would feel bad for having less Defensive abilities than other Tanks, and if I would choose otherwise I would feel bad for not having the Transmog I´d like.

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Wouldn`t this only be a problem if these new covenant abilities are useable in raids/dungeons?

This is something I´ve read several times.
It would be really really really really stupid to make such a elaborate/huge system for a rather Miniscule amount of Content.

You pick the first Covenant at MaxLevel, tell me how much Outdoor content do you do?

[Big Thanks]

That is the same fucking thing as a class.

How can you compare a nerf to one covenant ability from an entire class with 20 or 50 other abilities and customizations options?
It doesnt even make sense.

Blizzard just showed me a list of ABILITIES to pick (covenants)

I decided to pick the best for PvP. I made my choice, i dont care about transmog.

And i know i will get punished for it eventually...

[Raisei]

Balance is part of fun. There is no fun when your class underperforms and you have no spot in PvE and no chance in PvP.

Luckily my guild does not bench people because of their class choice. We want people to enjoy the game so we only enforce things as much as we have to (for example sticking to one character for the duration of the progression).

Has not stopped us from reaching our goals yet, which is gettign Curve in every raid since Legion (we only moved here at the very end of WoD). We are not a Mythic guild and we don't want to be. Does that stop us from killing a few Mythic bosses? No, and we don't have to bench people with the "wrong class" either.
Basically we have the best of both worlds.

[Kathranis]

My hope is that between these actives and the soul bind passives things generally balance out. These are supposed to be flavor choices, like racials, but right now there seems to be some big gaps in performance and utility depending on choice.

Having something unique for each class is really cool, and people have longed for racial class abilities since Classic, but they really either need to be minimally impactful or closely balanced or a lot of people won't be happy.

[Hitei]

How can you compare having to make a choice and then that choice potentially being nerfed down the line, with having to make a choice and that choice potentially being nerfed down the line.

It doesnt even make sense.

Gee billy, I don't know, it really doesn't even make sense.