Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[NineSpine]

Doesn't matter what abilities do...whole idea is bad. Always will only one way for class, spec...

Nope, there's four options.

[Gorsameth]

I don't really care about the balance of the abilities, but I would like to be able to play around with them regularly.

I don't see why they can't just gate the covenant sanctums / questlines / cosmetics / utility abilities behind the covenant, but not the abilities. I assume we are going to have to work across the covenants for the overarching story anyways, part of that could be getting the abilities as a reward.

It seems to me that would still keep the covenants as a meaningful choice while alleviating the concerns of the 1%.

Indeed, let players make a choice for cosmetic/utility or story but don't force players to chose between flavor or effectiveness.

[NineSpine]

Indeed, let players make a choice for cosmetic/utility or story but don't force players to chose between flavor or effectiveness.

The abilities are part of the flavor, just like when you make a mage instead of a warlock you don't get demon pets.

[Big Thanks]

Yes. And my point is that it's no different than picking a class for performance and dealing with nerfs. Or a race and dealing with nerfs. Or gearing a spec and dealing with nerfs.

Picking a class for the performance

Picking an ability from a list of abilities for the performance

One makes more sense than the other.
Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks an ability) will get punished eventually and will have to change covenants.
100% chance
100000000% chance of that happening.

We will all fail at picking covenants...

[Beefkow]

ok everyone need to calm the feck down.

In case you haven't read the blue post this alpha is being handled very very very differently than in the past. Let me break it down.

1) Targeted Testing. One zone one dungeon Class tuning 1.0

If you have alpha let them know what is broken about the things in the scope they are presented. Un-pruned abilities suck? Want more/less Covenant ability doesn't feel good would never take? Let them know. Narrow scope of testing lets dev iterate much more effectively.

2) Class Templates.

I cannot stress how important these are. a Predefined class template can expose ability imbalances and dungeon tuning issues much better vs attributing those things to gear scaling, stat scaling etc.

Given how this alpha is structured is very differently how this testing happened in the past. I know most of you fucks are jaded by shit in the past but least the foundation today is different so do you testing if you got in. report the issues and maybe we can actually have a nice expansion

It's hard to believe what you're saying is true, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

At this point i'm either looking forward to another round of BFA 2.0, ignoring all feedback and going with their half-assed choices, or pull off a miracle and have class design be as good as it was in MOP and actually listen to feedback.

But let's be realistic here, class design will never be as good as it was during MOP.

[Lolites]

Yes, i want to change them daily based on what i need.

well then hope the switching of covenants only take couple hours

[NineSpine]

Picking a class for the performance

Picking an ability from a list of abilities for the performance

One makes more sense than the other.
Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks an ability) will get punished eventually and will have to change covenants.
100% chance
100000000% chance of that happening.

We will all fail at picking covenants...

"Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks a class) will get punished eventually and will have to change classes.
100% chance
100000000% chance of that happening.

We will all fail at picking class..."

[Lolites]

If I have to change between each boss and depending if I want to tank or dps its most likely easier to maintain 2-3 identical characters, thats the main issue here.

then do that, if you think that necessary, but unless you are in Method or another guild trying for world first i doubt it will be the case...

[Hitei]

Picking a class for the performance

Picking an ability from a list of abilities for the performance

One makes more sense than the other.
Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks an ability) will get punished eventually and will have to change covenants.
100% chance
100000000% chance of that happening.

We will all fail at picking covenants...

I'm not sure why you think continuing to pretend covenants are 1 ability from a list of abilities is going to justify you having the same stance you just called mentally ill.

[Big Thanks]

"Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks a class) will get punished eventually and will have to change classes.
100% chance
100000000% chance of that happening.

We will all fail at picking class..."

Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.

[NineSpine]

Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.

I will get whatever the Venthyr give me because I like their aesthetics.

[Big Thanks]

I'm not sure why you think continuing to pretend covenants are 1 ability from a list of abilities is going to justify you having the same stance you just called mentally ill.

LOL tell me what you see here.
What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

Is it...a list? Of abilities?

I already told you we cant judge people just because covenants for them are just a list.

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I will get whatever the Venthyr give me because I like their aesthetics.

And my name is Shadowpunk and im "doomed" because for me covenants are just a list of abilities and soulbinds?
We can only hope Blizzard wont go "full nerf" on this abilities in PvP (i know they will though, they always do)

[NineSpine]

LOL tell me what you see here.
What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

Is it...a list? Of abilities?



I already told you we cant judge people just because covenants for them are just a list.

You understand that the class ability is ONE thing that you get from the covenant, right?

[Nerovar]

You are, again, missing the point. What people are trying to tell you is that Balance does not matter as much as fun and cool things to play with. Thus adding new abilities that sound really fun is a good thing, even if they are not balanced.

I'm not against adding new abilities. New abilities are almost always good and covenant abilities don't seem to be an exception in that regard. I'm against locking new abilities behind arbitrary barriers that will result in hampering gameplay for every remotely competetive player. Here's a fun fact: if you can switch between abilities, you can actually play with more fun and cool things.

The fact that you see this: "Abomination Limb (Necrolord) - Sprout an additional limb for a limited time, dealing Shadow damage to nearby enemies. If an enemy is farther away from you, they are pulled to your location.", and immediately take it for a fact that this is the best PvP ability is a very good example for the dramatizing I was refering to.
There is no information about how far the pull reaches, how long it stays active, what the CD is, how much damage it does or IF IT EVEN WORKS against players and you assume it is a fact that all DKs will use this for PvP, because it gives "incredible Utility".
The fact that you think that everyone has to immediately jump to this conclusion from one line of completely open text from the first Alpha build with no further information shows that YOU lack understanding of how the game works. For example, DKs already CAN have a second charge of the pull in PvP and that is hardly the thing that was responsible for their nerf lately.

Okay, let's divide this into different parts:
1) We've had information about this ability prior to the announcement of the Shadowlands alpha.
2) The pull range was set to 5m, the duration was 8 seconds and the CD was 90 seconds.
3) There's no indication that covenant abilities won't work on players. This is, again, conjecture on your part
4) I assume that DKs will take this for PvP every single time since it's not just "a second Death Grip" as you pointed out (wich is btw. a Blood only PvP talent which leads me to further question the sincerity of your argument) which would be strong in its own right (we had this as a set bonus back in the days). This ability is more like an overpowered version of Gorefiend's Grasp that allows you to keep multiple enemies from escaping or casting channeled spells for several seconds while also dealing damage. There's simply no way they will tune the other abilities in a way that would allow them to compete with this in PvP.

Your comment about the DK ability shows that you are quite capable of just assuming things so they fit your view of evil Blizzard gunning for you, but regardless. I choose to think that Blizzard is inherently on our side, you constantly assume they want to punish you and demand that everything in the game bends to your whim.

You don't want interesting game play, better to have balanced passives that don't do anything instead of actually offering choices that might inconvenience you slightly, hmm?

I never, ever advocated for "balanced passives". I simply think covenant abilities would provide better, more user friendly gameplay if you could switch between them without getting a slap on the wrist.

Yes, well, if you have such great understanding of the game you should know by now that PvP is a side gig. The game is not balanced around it and design decisions are not made based on it. Not should they. If enough PvPers cry then the abilities will simply not work in BGs anymore (just like the Corruption procs already do) and you have your wish that only the classes inherent imbalance will affect the game. Then you can enjoy the same gameplay of BFA.

What I said about PvP was just an example for why these abilities will have a negative impact on gameplay and it also holds true for PvE since there will also be more or less obvious BiS options depending on your spec and the content you play. Also I don't get what you're arguing for here? That Blizzard doesn't like PvP?

The point was that Balance should not matter as much as it does, because what we need is not more Balance, but more FUN gameplay.

You can have fun gameplay that is also more balanced. In what way would these abilities be less fun if you could swap between them?

[NineSpine]

And my name is Shadowpunk and im "doomed" because for me covenants are just a list of abilities and soulbinds?

Or you'll just pick one and be fine and all this crying and wailing will be for nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not against adding new abilities. New abilities are almost always good and covenant abilities don't seem to be an exception in that regard. I'm against locking new abilities behind arbitrary barriers that will result in hampering gameplay for every remotely competetive player. Here's a fun fact: if you can switch between abilities, you can actually play with more fun and cool things.


Okay, let's divide this into different parts:
1) We've had information about this ability prior to the announcement of the Shadowlands alpha.
2) The pull range was set to 5m, the duration was 8 seconds and the CD was 90 seconds.
3) There's no indication that covenant abilities won't work on players. This is, again, conjecture on your part
4) I assume that DKs will take this for PvP every single time since it's not just "a second Death Grip" as you pointed out (wich is btw. a Blood only PvP talent which leads me to further question the sincerity of your argument) which would be strong in its own right (we had this as a set bonus back in the days). This ability is more like an overpowered version of Gorefiend's Grasp that allows you to keep multiple enemies from escaping or casting channeled spells for several seconds while also dealing damage. There's simply no way they will tune the other abilities in a way that would allow them to compete with this in PvP.




I never, ever advocated for "balanced passives". I simply think covenant abilities would provide better, more user friendly gameplay if you could switch between them without getting a slap on the wrist.


What I said about PvP was just an example for why these abilities will have a negative impact on gameplay and it also holds true for PvE since there will also be more or less obvious BiS options depending on your spec and the content you play. Also I don't get what you're arguing for here? That Blizzard doesn't like PvP?


You can have fun gameplay that is also more balanced. In what way would these abilities be less fun if you could swap between them?

It's less fun for your character choices to have no meaningful impact on your character and then as a result, your character is a carbon copy of every character with the same class.

[roboscorcher]

Yeah this system is really dumb. I want to pick a covenant based on fantasy, not abilities. The necrolord ability is clearly a tank spell. As a tank, you'd be an idiot to choose any other covenant.

And sure, they could add similar tank spells to the other covenants, but then ask yourself: what is the point in creating 4 spells that work almost identically? It's a lot of work for almost no gain. Just make 1 version of the spell, and detach it from covenant choices. Keep covenants to flavour stuff: cosmetics, story, minor perks. If you tie them to gameplay, people will be forced to certain specs, or the devs will waste time making 4 homogenous skillsets.

[Hitei]

LOL tell me what you see here.
What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

Is it...a list? Of abilities?

No.


The devblog about the abilities specifically has a list of abilities. Are you maybe confused and don't understand what covenants are? Because that kinda seems like what is happening here.

[Big Thanks]

Or you'll just pick one and be fine and all this crying and wailing will be for nothing.

Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...

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No.

The devblog about the abilities specifically has a list of abilities. Are you maybe confused and don't understand what covenants are? Because that kinda seems like what is happening here.

You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.

[NineSpine]

Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...

The covenant doesn't just give you one ability. It gives you two, and soulbinds, and no matter how many times you insist on repeating this dumb as shit lie the reality won't change.

- - - Updated - - -

You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.

So then prioritize it. Nobody is stopping you.

[Nerovar]

It's less fun for your character choices to have no meaningful impact on your character and then as a result, your character is a carbon copy of every character with the same class.

This has pretty much always been the case with WoW though. At least since MoP all of the minor talent options were baked into specs as passives which reduced the choices to:
Spec->Talents->Glyphs->Gear/Stat distribution - That's your character.
But even in classic the differences between Rogue A and Rogue B are incredibly small and can be boiled down to the same things and even back then you could respec easily if you had the gold.