I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Synical123]

Comments like these really just show that you have absolutely no idea what i'm talking about.

Take BRD, it's one massive dungeon because the idea behind it was supposed to be that it is the capital of the Dark Iron nation, there are multiple themes to this such as the prison, Civillians areas, treasure vaults, a bar, Military Garrison, crafting areas and so forth.
It wasn't split up because that would take away from that fantasy of it being one large complex, all these are still connected because all of them are part of this fantasy of a dwarven city.

Same goes for Blackrock Spire, LBRS is the place where the footsoldiers are housed, from Ogres, Trolls and a variety of Orc Legions with different aspects to them.
They didn't say "this is the dungeon of X", but rather connectd them in large complex because it fits the overall theme of the place and lends some scale to the overall complex.

Auchindoun has none of them, it's four random factions within one complex that have no underlying connection to each other besides being in the complex.

The Vanilla dungeons are much more designed with fulfilling a certain fantasy in mind, TBC dungeons are designed with much more player convenience in mind, there aren't supposed to be optional bosses, no dungeon should take longer than an hour, no Dungeon should have more than five Bosses, you rarely need to do any pre quests in order to get quests for that dungeons and so forth.

I know exactly what you're talking about, you're just wrong.

Let me explain it to you. Let's just imagine for a second that tbc dungeons were built just like vanilla ones. Take hellfire dungeons for example. Instead of splitting them up, let's just connect them all but still allow another entrance to one side that skips half of the dungeon and then create hallways where you can skip to other bosses as well. Will these dungeons be played any differently? No. They wouldn't. Very rarely would you see a group go from start>finish. Maybe once or twice at the start then you would just see group going 'LFM SHATTERED HALLS RUN' or whatever they would call it.

The dungeons in vanilla are the exact. same. layout. except that they took what could have been 2 dungeons and combined them together.

[Zarator8]

There is a slight difference between players setting their own terms and the devs setting them.
And that's a key difference, if the players do that, it's their thing, if people only want to kill a handful of bosses in that dungeon, that's their choice but it's not like Blizzard specifically designed every dungeon in that way.

Blizzard designed those dungeons that way because they were catering to what people were doing on their own. It's literally Dev 101 to design the game around player's behavior, not against it. Unless there're other, balance-related reasons not to do so. But I still haven't heard a single argument from you against the TBC dungeon setup beyond "I don't like it".

[Kralljin]

Blizzard designed those dungeons that way because they were catering to what people were doing on their own. It's literally Dev 101 to design the game around player's behavior, not against it.

I don't think it's heresy within the Classic forum to say that player convenience isn't always a blessing and sometimes takes away the fantasy aspect.

But I still haven't heard a single argument from you against the TBC dungeon setup beyond "I don't like it".

It really comes down you paying any value to the arguments presented, that's the problem.
TBC dungeons are designed with a different philosophy in mind than the Vanilla ones, there is a reason why there is no Classic timewalking.
Because they are designed with a much different philsophy in mind than future ones and absolutely do not fit into the sort of (modern) content that Blizzard wants to deliver.
They don't want to forcibly chop up Vanilla dungeons into 20-30min bit sized content.

TBC dungeons in their overall layout are very similiar to Wotlk and Cata ones.

If you prefer the TBC ones, that's fine, but i preferred from an RPG standpoint the Vanilla ones.

Let me explain it to you. Let's just imagine for a second that tbc dungeons were built just like vanilla ones. Take hellfire dungeons for example. Instead of splitting them up, let's just connect them all but still allow another entrance to one side that skips half of the dungeon and then create hallways where you can skip to other bosses as well. Will these dungeons be played any differently? No. They wouldn't. Very rarely would you see a group go from start>finish. Maybe once or twice at the start then you would just see group going 'LFM SHATTERED HALLS RUN' or whatever they would call it.

Guess work on your part, you don't know how these dungeons would look like if they were designed in such fashion.
Scholo isn't split up, despite being a rather large dungeon (check for reference the "modern" scholo for how much was taken out).

But if you fail to see the difference between TBC dungeons and Vanilla ones, i don't think i need to discuss this further with you.

[Synical123]

I don't think it's heresy within the Classic forum to say that player convenience isn't always a blessing and sometimes takes away the fantasy aspect.


It really comes down you paying any value to the arguments presented, that's the problem.
TBC dungeons are designed with a different philosophy in mind than the Vanilla ones, there is a reason why there is no Classic timewalking.
Because they are designed with a much different philsophy in mind than future ones and absolutely do not fit into the sort of (modern) content that Blizzard wants to deliver.
They don't want to forcibly chop up Vanilla dungeons into 20-30min bit sized content.

TBC dungeons in their overall layout are very similiar to Wotlk and Cata ones.

If you prefer the TBC ones, that's fine, but i preferred from an RPG standpoint the Vanilla ones.


Guess work on your part, you don't know how these dungeons would look like if they were designed in such fashion.
Scholo isn't split up, despite being a rather large dungeon (check for reference the "modern" scholo for how much was taken out).

But if you fail to see the difference between TBC dungeons and Vanilla ones, i don't think i need to discuss this further with you.

I do understand the difference. I just told you the differences. I'm telling you that the differences don't mean shit. And I LOVE it when you are making a point you bring up a set amount of dungeons, then when we challenge that idea you swap to a different example in classic like scholo LOL. And even still, people will run scholo for specific bosses then bail.

Idk how many times I have to explain to you what the point we were trying to make with the layout, but it seems you just keep dancing around what we are saying after every post so I just give it up.

Vanilla dungeon designs are fun, nothing wrong with them. TBC design is better. Even people who play classic right now play the dugeons as if they were tbc designed.

[kail]

There is no such thing as wpvp in tbc, flying killed it.

Halaa PvP was definitely a thing. Put a mount as a reward for PvPing there and people will partake. All the other objective wPvP zones were largely ignored.

[Zarator8]

I don't think it's heresy within the Classic forum to say that player convenience isn't always a blessing and sometimes takes away the fantasy aspect.


It really comes down you paying any value to the arguments presented, that's the problem.
TBC dungeons are designed with a different philosophy in mind than the Vanilla ones, there is a reason why there is no Classic timewalking.
Because they are designed with a much different philsophy in mind than future ones and absolutely do not fit into the sort of (modern) content that Blizzard wants to deliver.
They don't want to forcibly chop up Vanilla dungeons into 20-30min bit sized content.

TBC dungeons in their overall layout are very similiar to Wotlk and Cata ones.

If you prefer the TBC ones, that's fine, but i preferred from an RPG standpoint the Vanilla ones.

It's not heresy but, subjectivity aside, it ultimately comes down to a matter of compromise.

I will be the first to admit that some of the Classic dungeons like Blackrock Depths look epic. If this were some kind of single-player RPG, where content is mostly consumed just once, they'd be absolutely perfect. But, in an MMORPG, it's also important to weigh how those RPG elements measure against the resulting quality of life, and its related consequences.

In BRD's case, for example, I don't think I ever wished to redo the whole dungeon after the first time. Because once you take away the feel of discovery you get the first time, all you're left of is a massive slot throughout a cavern full of hostile entities - 95% of which are absolutely irrelevant to you for the most part. What's worse, getting through the whole place can require several hours depending on the group you roll with (last time I did a full run with a half-60, half sub-60 group, it took something like 4 hours), and once you know the way it doesn't really feel any different from one long tunnel with a prize at the end.

Ultimately, I can understand how some of the Classic dungeons may look more inspiring to a first-timer. But as a returning/veteran player I value the replayability of TBC dungeons much more than the good first impression given by Vanilla ones.

YMMV on this, ofc, but calling TBC dungeons a "downgrade" from Classic is at the very least heavily biased. Much like all the arguments about world exploration that I keep hearing when ppl compare Azeroth and Outland. This is good and all, but as a person who's been played this game for years and even had Loremaster in WotLK it doesn't really mean as much as you may imagine.

[Kralljin]

Vanilla dungeon designs are fun, nothing wrong with them. TBC design is better. Even people who play classic right now play the dugeons as if they were tbc designed.

I disagree on that count, i personally preferred the design of Vanilla dungeons, because it put an emphasis on the fantasy over convenience.

Like, people also play retail, despite a lot of people here not liking retail, because it's different.
There is a different design applied here, not an improvement of the same design.

but calling TBC dungeons a "downgrade" from Classic is at the very least heavily biased.

I wouldn't call it biased because it comes down to personal preference, i prefer the very fantasy heavy approach of Classic (as a whole) and while TBC wasn't as big on the removal of this as later expansions, it is one these aspects that already started in TBC.

[Utrrabbit]

Nope wrong

Yes. I agree. You are wrong

[Utrrabbit]

No I say your opinion is wrong hence I am right

Not how this works. If i say you are wrong. It is a fact, not an opinion.

[Synical123]

Not how this works. If i say you are wrong. It is a fact, not an opinion.

Imagine calling TBC bad and thinking you're correct LOL. Yikers bud

[Mukind]

Every single PvE realm existing, at least EU-side, has a high population, both factions are thriving (even Horde), and they have pretty much kept the same level of activity since launch, with parties for even low level dungeons regularly forming. Meanwhile, several PvP servers have suffered with shrinking Alliance numbers, lack of sub-60 activity and overall less stable numbers. Sure, many of them still offered thriving environments, such as Gehennas and Firemaw, but you couldn't have known from the start which PvP servers would have thrived and which would have been crippled with severe unbalance. Even some of the oldest ones, such as Shazzrah, have quite a problem with faction balance now.

And, coming TBC, I'm sure many players will remember how p2 went on Classic. I wouldn't expect the same PvP-to-PvE server ratio this time around.



I like how some of you think that servers magically script by themselves, as long as there's enough pop.



The PvP hype was big before launch because many big voices touted it as the "true Classic experience", people bought in the hype and swarmed these servers before realizing it wasn't for them. There's a reason why only PvP servers suffered populations drop since Classic's inception, while every single PvE server - even those introduced post launch, like Netherwing - managed to retain their launch numbers with a constant influx of new players (including refugees from PvP servers). If you expect the same to happen in TBC you're in for disappointment.

in NA (and i'm sure EU as well), again 90% of the playerbase is on PvP servers

Why would one alive server matter? lol

Bar is so low

So unless there were 0 viable pve servers, it would be alive/ that's your line? lol

2?

Hahahaha

In a game where 75%+ were PvE realms on release? Ok bud

- - - Updated - - -

nice bait thread OP, everyone knows TBC would be super popular. Or should I say WILL be.
Arena alone will make it super popular.

p servers say that's not true at all

can find better arena gameplay in retail.....

very little has changed but better balance from TBC to now in wow pvp. Classic was the only unique pvp expansion. Rest are all in the same vein they use in 2020.

Small scale arena with a limited action set is the paramount game type. Why would you want to play an arena meta that has already been figured out? You won't even get a talent progression to have the seasons move like they did. No variance

It's terrible

[Utrrabbit]

Imagine calling TBC bad and thinking you're correct LOL. Yikers bud

Imagine thinking that garbage is good. Yikers bud.

[Faenskap]

What ist it with you guys and world pvp? World pvp just sucks. There are only like 2 scenarios in world pvp:

1. You want to do shit in the open world and get ganked by a group of people or a high level player or a class that you cant beat (warrior vs. warlock for example, and please spare me with your stories where you as a warrior managed to beat a warlock. nobody cares)
In this example the only thing that happens ist that other people are wasting your time and you get frustrated.

2. You are a high level player and/or are with your friends und you gank somebody that has no chance agianst you. In this case you are an asshole that just wastes other peoples time and patience.

Either you are an asshole or you are a victim. So yeah world pvp is garbage. deal with it.

On the topic of TBC: TBC made everything better and even did alot of new things which are great. TBC is better than classic in every way.

I just wanted to add to this nicely written post. I have over 300k honorable kills behind me in retail, on different characters. I despise world PvP. Absolutely hate it. So here I am, on my 31 warlock, half mana, half HP. A 30 warrior charges in with full HP and I'm gone.

When I'm out in the open world, I want to do things related to being out in the open world, such as questing or getting to an instance (said warlock is 35, jesus, I need that mount). World PvP - fucking hell. People act as if flying killed world PvP, like it was the biggest and most important thing with world of warcraft. With my 300k + honorable kills, it never mattered. I started playing in early TBC and participated in a Nagrand fight like... once?

[SkagenRora]

I think it's good that World PvP gets destroyed... because WPvP is just the bigger faction ganking the smaller faction, It's never fun or fair (unless you are in the big group killing the small group ofc) and WPvP should die.

[chrisnumbers]

Oh look, another endless thread where people argue in circles about their opinions.

[Necromantic]

Oh look, another endless thread where people argue in circles about their opinions.

I know. I shake my head at people who quote someone's opinion and say they're "wrong."

[J012D4N]

Cho'gall didn't have WPvP in TBC. Cho'gall had Horde ganking Alliance.

Accurate statement, especially later on in the expansion.

[anon5123]

"wahh wahh flying destroyed wpvp!"

So did battlegrounds. Should we remove those too?

[blankfaced]

With how quick you can level without ever questing, a lot of people have never stepped foot on TBCs Outlands. And they never got to experience the awesome changes to talents and hybrids that came with TBC.

[Nicholaes92]

"wahh wahh flying destroyed wpvp!"

So did battlegrounds. Should we remove those too?

If anything flying made world pvp better. You know what it got rid of? The ability to spam camp someone. It didn’t get rid of pvp. If you think there will be no pvp on elemental plateau or the netherwing daily area or isle of queldanas or outside raids like kara or ssc, they are sadly mistaken.

They are taking the ‘vanilla Love’ hype too far and disregarding the expacs that made the game better