Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[rogoth]

They are fine, if they can ONLY be used in world content. No raids, no dungeons, no battlegrounds.

they said clearly that the 'power' abilities are usable in all content and the utility abilities are open world stuff.

[Notshauna]

How don't they? They represent what the player has overcome and what they are prepared for. If you want a proper rpg we reduce the game into mythic only and have hard personal checks like the mage tower before you are allowed to attempt them. If that is really what you want from wow as a rpg I suppose I will grudging have to accept it.

That or we can stop pretending picking a talent point is some thing that should be tied to a mindless grind when it hasn't been for more then a decade.

Most RPGs are actually really easy, as most of the core player base would rather experiment with choices rather than be challenged via content designed to be difficult with the best builds. Grinding literally exists as a mechanism to allow players to overpower content in order to reduce the challenge present. In fact I'd argue excessive challenge detracts from what makes RPGs enjoyable, as sufficiently difficult content limits choice.

[Elias01]

Remember the time they had to nerf some traits by half months after they were released? Yeah, expect the same thing here.

Dont expect balance in mmorpg game. How can people have problem with unbalance in rpg game is beyond me. Its not esport game. Its not compettive game. Its freaking rpg game atlest supostu be so pls keep that raid simulator mindset our of this game.

[tyrlaan]

The problem is pleasing the "min maxers" in this case pleases everyone except those who want weird grinds to respec talents. Your argument has no legs to stand on.

Except you failed to understand my argument. Again.

As has been pointed out to you by more than me, the gripe being lobbed at covenant abilities is far from just "respecing needs to be easy". You are trying to reframe the crux of this discussion to knock down what you disagree with, which isn't how reality works.

Excellent post.

Intellectual dishonesty in this thread. As if miniscule DPS differences affected people’s raid spots.

People don’t all have the optimal racials, yet they can raid.
People don’t all have optimal essences, talents, azerite traits, yet they can raid.
People are unable to execute their rotations flawlessly, yet they can raid.
People don’t all play the optimal DPS classes, yet they can raid.

But somehow now, picking a covenant that might do 1k DPS less than another one is getting you benched?

I play in a semi-casual guild, our progress is 8/12M currently, and I’ve never seen anyone even looking at other people’s talents, traits or racials, as long as they are doing ”OK” everything is fine. Even in my previous top100 guild at least half of the guys were using sub-optimal racials and we didn’t stack classes.

Let me be the one to break it down to you heroic raiders: If you lost your raid spot because of your choice of covenant, that’s not why you lost it. You probably just sucked.

So completely on point.

[VinceVega]

- quests
- raids
- dungeons
- mechanics that include the world
- stuff like MoP farm
- stuff like Simon game in TBC
- challenge modes
- secrets
- battlegrounds
- arenas
- professions with interaction of gaming world
- mini games
- DMF
- housing
- and and and

i mean, what IS this for a question ?

ofc gear focused item systems, aka „db entries and one UI“ is obviously NOT real content. how can someone even ask such a question ???

sooo we have nearly all of this in bfa too. That is exactly why i asked the question but hey.

And we never will get housing. Not that i don't want it. I just don't think Blizz wants to do it. Because right now they would have to basically copy FF14...

[Laughingjack]

Except you failed to understand my argument. Again.

As has been pointed out to you by more than me, the gripe being lobbed at covenant abilities is far from just "respecing needs to be easy". You are trying to reframe the crux of this discussion to knock down what you disagree with, which isn't how reality works.



So completely on point.

What point is that... that playing on heroic talent choices won't matter?

I mean I understand you don't have an argument that makes sense beyond you want to rp. I just would rather the game wasn't designed around rp but rather gameplay.

[keyboardshinobi]

And thus the bitching on both sides has started, Those who say blizz will never get it right but continue to play or stopped playing with no intent to ever return but claim their nonpaying opinion matters, and those who argue to give blizz a chance and it will get better but will treat the alpha and beta like a glorified demo not putting bugs in or calling things out then turning salty because blizz needs to re-balance the 1 thing they actually like. Going to be a fun year guys.

[Delekii]

For all the people , who claim blizzard wont balance it / wont change it anyway. What are you doing here? Just wanting to rage and cry? Looking for validation? Maybe make a chat group for such and let people discuss the new system in peace

Reinforcing the point so that morons won't go around saying "it's only alpha, give them time", rather than demanding change.

If you think something in it's current state isn't right, start shouting now. It _will not_ be changed otherwise in any pertinent way. Not in alpha, not in beta, not in release.

[tyrlaan]

What point is that... that playing on heroic talent choices won't matter?

I mean I understand you don't have an argument that makes sense beyond you want to rp. I just would rather the game wasn't designed around rp but rather gameplay.

I'm sorry you are not following what I've been saying, but that should foster a response of "I don't get what you're saying". Your bad faith reductive tactics are tiresome.

I'll spell it out for you more clearly. If you continue to not understand my point (or act like you don't after this) I can't help you and there will be no point talking to you further.

People in this thread are complaining that specific choices are OP and therefore will "force" them to pick their covenant based on this based on, let's call them, "RP" reasons.

My counter point has been, repeatedly, that designating abilities as OP right now is silly for two reasons - 1) we don't have all the details and 2) when something gives you a small percentage increase over another option (let's say it's a 1% dps increase) maybe just go with the covenant you want instead since that difference really doesn't matter unless you think you're Method.

I've furthermore complained that people with the above mentality (that covenant abilities are OP and removing choice) will lead down the potential path of giving us boring/bland/uninteresting/barely useful abilities if Blizzard chooses to try to cater to these complaints. To expand on this logical progression - the more you push design towards balance, the less likely you get flavorful and impactful abilities. See further the years of complaints about homogenization of classes.

Do you want "+1% to damage" passive traits instead of interesting active abilities? Is balance in your gameplay so important to you that this is more fun in a game than throwing a big ass spear in the ground and doing aoe damage (for example, since we've seen the animations for that one) which can have clear impact on certain fights? Would you rather "+1K dps" over "crap out 16 spells in 4 seconds based on spec"?

Sure I am probably exaggerating exactly how watered down these will become in the name of balance, but spazzing over these covenant abilities, especially right now, is absurd and will push us down that kind of path if actually listened to by devs. Again, we have years of complaints as evidence of how this goes.

I've also made the point that if the +1% dps is so important to you, then just pick the covenant that gives you that. That's the cost of making that decision, just like the cost of picking the covenant you want over the dps boost has a cost. There's only a problem here because people want to say they are making a "meaningful choice" but don't actually want any consequences for their choice. Otherwise there would be no argument and you'd have people just going "wow, ability x looks amazing, I guess I'll be going Night Fae with my DH."


Are some people in this thread complaining about a desire for "free respecs"? Yes.

Is that what I'm arguing against? No.

That's a second issue which I have my own reservations against and have discussed most specifically with Shadoowpunk (since he seems primarily to be the one complaining about respecs) and you can find in this thread if you're remotely interested.

[Laughingjack]

I'm sorry you are not following what I've been saying, but that should foster a response of "I don't get what you're saying". Your bad faith reductive tactics are tiresome.

I'll spell it out for you more clearly. If you continue to not understand my point (or act like you don't after this) I can't help you and there will be no point talking to you further.

People in this thread are complaining that specific choices are OP and therefore will "force" them to pick their covenant based on this based on, let's call them, "RP" reasons.

My counter point has been, repeatedly, that designating abilities as OP right now is silly for two reasons - 1) we don't have all the details and 2) when something gives you a small percentage increase over another option (let's say it's a 1% dps increase) maybe just go with the covenant you want instead since that difference really doesn't matter unless you think you're Method.

I've furthermore complained that people with the above mentality (that covenant abilities are OP and removing choice) will lead down the potential path of giving us boring/bland/uninteresting/barely useful abilities if Blizzard chooses to try to cater to these complaints. To expand on this logical progression - the more you push design towards balance, the less likely you get flavorful and impactful abilities. See further the years of complaints about homogenization of classes.

Do you want "+1% to damage" passive traits instead of interesting active abilities? Is balance in your gameplay so important to you that this is more fun in a game than throwing a big ass spear in the ground and doing aoe damage (for example, since we've seen the animations for that one) which can have clear impact on certain fights? Would you rather "+1K dps" over "crap out 16 spells in 4 seconds based on spec"?

Sure I am probably exaggerating exactly how watered down these will become in the name of balance, but spazzing over these covenant abilities, especially right now, is absurd and will push us down that kind of path if actually listened to by devs. Again, we have years of complaints as evidence of how this goes.

I've also made the point that if the +1% dps is so important to you, then just pick the covenant that gives you that. That's the cost of making that decision, just like the cost of picking the covenant you want over the dps boost has a cost. There's only a problem here because people want to say they are making a "meaningful choice" but don't actually want any consequences for their choice. Otherwise there would be no argument and you'd have people just going "wow, ability x looks amazing, I guess I'll be going Night Fae with my DH."


Are some people in this thread complaining about a desire for "free respecs"? Yes.

Is that what I'm arguing against? No.

That's a second issue which I have my own reservations against and have discussed most specifically with Shadoowpunk (since he seems primarily to be the one complaining about respecs) and you can find in this thread if you're remotely interested.

I have no issue with the abilities excelling in certain roles. I can clearly see what would be effective for different content with the classes I currently play. I have little interest in attempting to balance these abilities against one another. I would go as far to say it would be pointless to try they each fill different roles this isn't akin to a single themed talent row where every spell is damage utility is mixed in as well.

I don't really want to track down posts to see your stance on respecing. I will simply repeat my own words on it needing to be free or extremely inexpensive to not become a burden when it comes to gameplay.

[FelPlague]

How do they intend to balance this? The abilities have such HUGE differences that will result in one being far better than the other three. Did Ion not see this coming?

After the disaster of BfA class design, this has got me worried. Will Shadowlands also have massive issues with class design now?

Game is not balanced instead in favor of letting people have fun abilities to choose from
more obvious news at 11.

[Zyky]

People said this about Azerite gear for months without any response from the devs.

Expect these to be just as bad.

? The difference is nobody knew what Azerite traits were going to be available for months into Beta, we're getting almost all the information upfront before alpha even starts with lots of room for improvement and tuning. Also the fact that this is just "you always have it" rather than having to hunt down 3 different armor slots all with correct traits makes this significantly better than Azerite ever was.

[tyrlaan]

I have no issue with the abilities excelling in certain roles. I can clearly see what would be effective for different content with the classes I currently play. I have little interest in attempting to balance these abilities against one another. I would go as far to say it would be pointless to try they each fill different roles this isn't akin to a single themed talent row where every spell is damage utility is mixed in as well.

I don't really want to track down posts to see your stance on respecing. I will simply repeat my own words on it needing to be free or extremely inexpensive to not become a burden when it comes to gameplay.

My take is that free/inexpensive makes sense if an ability gets dramatically reworked. But if it's nerfed by like "5% damage", then it should not be free/inexpensive.

The former is akin to "we just changed your talents so here's a free respec" and makes perfect sense to me.

The latter is just game balancing and if that's so significant to you then put in the work to change covenants, just like people that reroll a different class to follow the "FotM". That's a choice you put on yourself because you want to eke every drop of dps out of everything you can exploit.

[SLNC]

My take is that free/inexpensive makes sense if an ability gets dramatically reworked. But if it's nerfed by like "5% damage", then it should not be free/inexpensive.

The former is akin to "we just changed your talents so here's a free respec" and makes perfect sense to me.

The latter is just game balancing and if that's so significant to you then put in the work to change covenants, just like people that reroll a different class to follow the "FotM". That's a choice you put on yourself because you want to eke every drop of dps out of everything you can exploit.

Zenimax gave out free race changes every time they made substantial changes to racials in ESO. It would be a good compromise to do the same for big changes to Covenant abilities for the duration of SL.

[FelPlague]

Please keep in mind that it is not only a bunch of abilities. a Whole mini talent tree is behind each covenant.

Once again. Blizz shot themselves in the foot big time with this lame idea.

My solutions is, scrap the trees and covenant base abilities. Just add few rows of talents and put all abilities there.

And somehow putting these on the talent trees would suddenly balance them?
yeah no, thats not how it works.

[Laughingjack]

My take is that free/inexpensive makes sense if an ability gets dramatically reworked. But if it's nerfed by like "5% damage", then it should not be free/inexpensive.

The former is akin to "we just changed your talents so here's a free respec" and makes perfect sense to me.

The latter is just game balancing and if that's so significant to you then put in the work to change covenants, just like people that reroll a different class to follow the "FotM". That's a choice you put on yourself because you want to eke every drop of dps out of everything you can exploit.

The problem isn't really FOTM as you put it but rather the abilities have such niche roles that taking the wrong one for the wrong content can simply mean you won't succeed at higher levels of play in that content.

If this was simply a matter of raw damage it would be annoying but not as hindering. I truly can't see the benefit of making talent points grind locked. It makes as much sense as making them unlock able only by fully clearing mythic raids. I get people want some lore flavor but it shouldn't be at the cost of game play.

- - - Updated - - -

And somehow putting these on the talent trees would suddenly balance them?
yeah no, thats not how it works.

It would get rid of the issue of some of them over performing in certain content and I think that is the main concern.

[FelPlague]

They will obviously not be balanced, You can't have 52 new abilities put into the game that all do different things balanced.

If Blizzard gives us the power to swap between covenants then its a non issue

if you have the power to swap then there is no devotion.
people want class fantasy, but they also want to be able to do everything.
they want specs to matter, but then they want to be able to swap between them easy
they want your choices to matter, but then want to be able to change every fight.
they want "something unique" but then want to have that removed.

You should say "Im a demo lock allied with maldraxsus"
not
"I am a player"
all this "I want to be able to switch classes in 2 seconds, then specs, and talents, and covenents" ruins any player identity.

- - - Updated - - -

It would get rid of the issue of some of them over performing in certain content and I think that is the main concern.

except it wouldnt, some classes would still be far better then others in X Y and Z.
this would just make it easier to change and give us less choice overall, as idk how you wanna put 8 abilities into the talent tree.

[tyrlaan]

The problem isn't really FOTM as you put it but rather the abilities have such niche roles that taking the wrong one for the wrong content can simply mean you won't succeed at higher levels of play in that content.

If this was simply a matter of raw damage it would be annoying but not as hindering. I truly can't see the benefit of making talent points grind locked. It makes as much sense as making them unlock able only by fully clearing mythic raids. I get people want some lore flavor but it shouldn't be at the cost of game play.

re: the part in bold - no. There's no way to know this now. Way too much information is lacking to make a call like that based on reason.

[Laughingjack]

if you have the power to swap then there is no devotion.
people want class fantasy, but they also want to be able to do everything.
they want specs to matter, but then they want to be able to swap between them easy
they want your choices to matter, but then want to be able to change every fight.
they want "something unique" but then want to have that removed.

You should say "Im a demo lock allied with maldraxsus"
not
"I am a player"
all this "I want to be able to switch classes in 2 seconds, then specs, and talents, and covenents" ruins any player identity.

I don't agree with this at all. People want to swap to be as effective at fights as possible. I honestly have never heard of this weird RP version of playing the game until this week.

I find the notion that people would rather not have agency over their own choices hard to reconcile.

- - - Updated - - -

re: the part in bold - no. There's no way to know this now. Way too much information is lacking to make a call like that based on reason.

No there is far more then enough information I am afraid. Looking at the list I can tell what abilities you cannot afford to have should you strive to be a gladiator or do a mythic 20+ or beyond.

Mythic raiding is a different beast as choices open up more depending on how late in the patch you expect to full clear but if you are a person who wants it down in the first month to six weeks there are clear choices you can not afford to make either.

[SLNC]

I don't agree with this at all. People want to swap to be as effective at fights as possible. I honestly have never heard of this weird RP version of playing the game until this week.

I find the notion that people would rather not have agency over their own choices hard to reconcile.

Re-experiencing Classic might have rekindled that flame for some.