DH Havoc Shadowlands Class Update - Thats it????

[Musta]

Wasn't one of the first lines in the huge post about how this is the first look at things and it's all a WiP?

Though I guess you can't really blame people for being concerned, Blizzard's track record isn't that great when it comes to the whole sentiment of "it's only Alpha, I'm sure it'll be fixed by the time release comes around"....

exactly. /10chars

[FelPlague]

They're well behind on DH development it seems. We're still missing a covernment ability.

most of the classes are missing 1 covenant ability.

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exactly. /10chars

what do you want them to change? The class has been only around 2 expacs, you cant really "unprune" a prune that didn't effect them.
plus with only 2 specs, they are the ones to get the least changes, did you really expec like 8 paragrahs on how they are adding 20 abilities or something?

1 or 2 abilities, maybe 3 or 4, for a class that has not been pruned is fine.

[velspine]

What is happening? all classes are getting major changes and we got 1 paragraph of bullshit. Dont get me wrong i like IA being baseline but.. wheres the rest of the information? An they AGAIN are trying to force a dps window skill.

Whats going on?

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THEY SHOULD RE ADD OVER SIX EXPANSIONS OF DEMON HUNTER? You are braindead, take more from lock? take some magic stealing stuff from Death Knights? This class plays amazingly well, and this is a complaint, you are A. Stupid, B, Stupid, C All the freaking above.

Jesus I am getting so irritated shit like this runs across someones mind?

[MrLachyG]

Major changes i understand.. but so little is underwhelming....

OP do you actually understand why there is so little? because there have been very few abilities removed compared to other classes and therefore not much change is needed

[Musta]

most of the classes are missing 1 covenant ability.

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what do you want them to change? The class has been only around 2 expacs, you cant really "unprune" a prune that didn't effect them.
plus with only 2 specs, they are the ones to get the least changes, did you really expec like 8 paragrahs on how they are adding 20 abilities or something?

1 or 2 abilities, maybe 3 or 4, for a class that has not been pruned is fine.

i would be fine if felblade was baseline also. Im not asking much

[EthisquareSG]

No Momentum baseline, No bloodlet.

Boring.

[mauserr]

No Momentum baseline, No bloodlet.

Boring.

That's a good thing Momentum is ass and should never be the best spec for m+/raiding. It has no place in a competetive setting.

[EthisquareSG]

Momentum was engaging to play, Much more fun to play over the boring rotation we've had since post EN.

[AlmightyGerkin]

What is happening? all classes are getting major changes and we got 1 paragraph of bullshit. Dont get me wrong i like IA being baseline but.. wheres the rest of the information? An they AGAIN are trying to force a dps window skill.

Whats going on?

Idk maybe cause it is FUCKING ALPHA and that they're releasing more information as time goes on.

[Vorality]

Most OP class in M+, Raiding, PvP, Solo Content, Visions, etc...maybe apart from BM Hunter...and ya'll want even more? Arguably the easiest class to play on top of it - again, apart from BM Hunter.

I mean, instead of complaining about what we didn't get, because honestly nothing is needed, start talking about what is needed. The class is 2 expansions old with nothing wrong with it. Best mobility, ranged stun, aoe stun, incap, ranged interrupt, incredible single target and AoE dmg, high sustain through leech...like seriously...this is a class you would make if you could put all your favorite things from the game into one class.

This is why we can't have nice things. The perfect class has a thread open about how they aren't better.

[EthisquareSG]

Most OP class in M+, Raiding, PvP, Solo Content, Visions, etc...maybe apart from BM Hunter...and ya'll want even more? Arguably the easiest class to play on top of it - again, apart from BM Hunter.

I mean, instead of complaining about what we didn't get, because honestly nothing is needed, start talking about what is needed. The class is 2 expansions old with nothing wrong with it. Best mobility, ranged stun, aoe stun, incap, ranged interrupt, incredible single target and AoE dmg, high sustain through leech...like seriously...this is a class you would make if you could put all your favorite things from the game into one class.

This is why we can't have nice things. The perfect class has a thread open about how they aren't better.

Not really complaining, No doubt DH is the best in most of those cases you've pointed out.

What i'm upset about is the fact we didn't get stuff that actually makes the class more engaging to play, Stuff like momentum as baseline, remove stuff that makes us super strong sure, but please add a higher skill cap to the class.

Also, All classes are easy to play honestly, It's a stupid comment, Most classes now do not have an insane rotation, and are simple to pick up and play.

[Cronovey]

Not really complaining, No doubt DH is the best in most of those cases you've pointed out.

What i'm upset about is the fact we didn't get stuff that actually makes the class more engaging to play, Stuff like momentum as baseline, remove stuff that makes us super strong sure, but please add a higher skill cap to the class.

Also, All classes are easy to play honestly, It's a stupid comment, Most classes now do not have an insane rotation, and are simple to pick up and play.

Momentum was boring as fuck and not engaging in any way. Hey, use your mobility to do more damage instead of for mobility. It's just as stupid as the rogue Outlaw boots from last expansion that gave you more damage from having movement speed so you'd use Sprint for DPS instead of mobility. People are already complaining about having to have a DPS window with the Dark Slash upgraded talent, and you want to make fuckin Momentum base which was the ultimate ability in terms of shitty DPS window optimization?

Same thing with Bloodlet that you mentioned before as well. Using a ranged ability in melee range because of a bleed was incredibly stupid design for a class that is already GCD capped as well unless you also want to spec into boring as fuck Demon Blades instead, in which case there's more downtime than anyone knows what to do with and you end up going AFK to make a sandwich before smashing Chaos Strike a few times, then off to the bathroom while you rebuild Fury again.

But on topic here, I don't really know what you wanted from them for DH. They're in excellent shape for dungeons and raids, they do all right in PvP as well, and are absolutely amazing for solo content which is going to be an option for Torghast next expansion. Anything they add on is going to require them to nerf us in some other area or come up with new talent options to replace them (I'm already worried about Immo Aura's replacement talent) and the class is in a great spot already compared to almost ALL the other classes right now so I'd really prefer that the other classes get the attention they need and DH just stays under the radar instead of getting the nerfbat to the knees that it probably deserves in a lot of ways.

[EthisquareSG]

Momentum was boring as fuck and not engaging in any way. Hey, use your mobility to do more damage instead of for mobility. It's just as stupid as the rogue Outlaw boots from last expansion that gave you more damage from having movement speed so you'd use Sprint for DPS instead of mobility. People are already complaining about having to have a DPS window with the Dark Slash upgraded talent, and you want to make fuckin Momentum base which was the ultimate ability in terms of shitty DPS window optimization?

Same thing with Bloodlet that you mentioned before as well. Using a ranged ability in melee range because of a bleed was incredibly stupid design for a class that is already GCD capped as well unless you also want to spec into boring as fuck Demon Blades instead, in which case there's more downtime than anyone knows what to do with and you end up going AFK to make a sandwich before smashing Chaos Strike a few times, then off to the bathroom while you rebuild Fury again.

Maybe I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses, But i remember really enjoying Momentum in EN. Atually having to track your momentum, reseting your dashes with blur, made for interesting game-play decisions on the fly, Positioning was important, It honestly just felt fun and interesting to play, where as now, all i'm doing is spamming EB/BD off cd, dumping fury, and picking up orbs.

[Doffen]

Loving the vengeance changes tbh. I was instantly like "yep, thats my first alt to get up in Shadowlands" because I think adding FD as baseline and adding Demonic for VDH is a great change. As of now they need a little extra to be more fun, I really like the Gluttony/Vision combo more than the traditional SB setup and these changes is an extension of that. Reading through the other defensive changes again they seem very true to the class fantasy and I have said they could use another defensive ability and these look quite decent if you ask me.

So I think they more or less nailed it. More meta is fun and I think they have learned that people love having that high uptime on it playing as Havoc. Talking about Havoc, they don't need many changes. Making immolation aura baseline is a natural change and playing DH as main now in BfA(changing to DK for SL) I don't feel many changes is needed because Havoc got a few choices in their playstyle that all feels good to play.

Changing too much of good thing isn't needed. After these changes it's an easy choice to play Vengeance as a main spec on my DH for the first time while having a great dps spec to swap to when not tanking in Shadowlands.

[Vorality]

Not really complaining, No doubt DH is the best in most of those cases you've pointed out.

What i'm upset about is the fact we didn't get stuff that actually makes the class more engaging to play, Stuff like momentum as baseline, remove stuff that makes us super strong sure, but please add a higher skill cap to the class.

Also, All classes are easy to play honestly, It's a stupid comment, Most classes now do not have an insane rotation, and are simple to pick up and play.

Most classes are easy to play, for sure, but don't compare to DH or BM Hunter in terms of performance. You don't have to put much effort into playing any class to play it, but to perform well, it's different. Bad players can inherently perform extremely well (in terms of dps) when playing a DH or BM Hunter, where you don't have to do much to reach maximum output. However, for example, when playing a Frost mage and maxing out shatter potential by being max ranged, fire mage with rune of power usage, Destro with keeping up immolate on multiple targets and using bane properly, paladin with good judgement usage before TV/not capping holy power, sub rogue with energy management before dances, etc etc.

Simply, to play DH or BM at an above average or even at a high level, doesn't require as much than most other classes...that's what I meant when saying they are the easiest classes.

While the Momentum build definitely created a high skill gap between the good and bad players, having your movement abilities apart of your damage rotation was clunky as hell. Would never want to go back to that. DH is literally fine as is. It's obviously meant to be an oversimplified class that can perform extremely well without much effort. That's your go to melee class if you're not very skilled and BM is your ranged go to class.

Also not saying that only non-skilled players play these classes. The players can't help the design of the class, it's just how it is. I've stated the above in light of people that wish to perform well, but don't know the game well. However, to want more out of an already perfectly performing class is absurd. If OP or some of the people wanting changes have voiced that they would gladly take nerfs in exchange for better play-ability, then I'd understand...but I'm not seeing that. Seems like most people want more OP stuff on an already god tier class.

The only thing I'd wish they'd do is to put in a 3rd spec that's ranged and have it loosely based around old demo lock with their metamorphosis/demon form.

[EthisquareSG]

Most classes are easy to play, for sure, but don't compare to DH or BM Hunter in terms of performance. You don't have to put much effort into playing any class to play it, but to perform well, it's different. Bad players can inherently perform extremely well (in terms of dps) when playing a DH or BM Hunter, where you don't have to do much to reach maximum output. However, for example, when playing a Frost mage and maxing out shatter potential by being max ranged, fire mage with rune of power usage, Destro with keeping up immolate on multiple targets and using bane properly, paladin with good judgement usage before TV/not capping holy power, sub rogue with energy management before dances, etc etc.

Simply, to play DH or BM at an above average or even at a high level, doesn't require as much than most other classes...that's what I meant when saying they are the easiest classes.

While the Momentum build definitely created a high skill gap between the good and bad players, having your movement abilities apart of your damage rotation was clunky as hell. Would never want to go back to that. DH is literally fine as is. It's obviously meant to be an oversimplified class that can perform extremely well without much effort. That's your go to melee class if you're not very skilled and BM is your ranged go to class.

Also not saying that only non-skilled players play these classes. The players can't help the design of the class, it's just how it is. I've stated the above in light of people that wish to perform well, but don't know the game well. However, to want more out of an already perfectly performing class is absurd. If OP or some of the people wanting changes have voiced that they would gladly take nerfs in exchange for better play-ability, then I'd understand...but I'm not seeing that. Seems like most people want more OP stuff on an already god tier class.

The only thing I'd wish they'd do is to put in a 3rd spec that's ranged and have it loosely based around old demo lock with their metamorphosis/demon form.

Understandable, I get that while Momentum build was (is) "awkward" as it was your main mobility skill, It added an extra depth to the class, Making it a more risk/reward type of class, having blur reset your fel rush charges too, Yes it was a defensive but was a question of do i use this to get that extra damage out or use it defensively, Positioning yourself correctly so you always stayed in mele range to get the most of your momentum burst window, while also aware of mechanics around you so you we're well not going to be yeeted by a one shot ability. I wouldn't say it was clunky, The most frustrating part was the "fel rush" d/c, however can't say i've had one of them for a long time.

I don't like the fact we have so much "forgiveness" in our kit, I'd like more risk/reward type gameplay, if it means having to critically think about using our fel rush charges for mobility or a damage boost, more attention to position, and not having multiple "oh shit buttons" to save the day, I love the class, but damn is it's being so boring this expansion, just because we're in a "perfect" spot when it comes too all types of content doesn't make it rewarding or fun to play.

Guess i'm just hoping for something more exciting, rather than a baseline IA, a upgraded dark slash and more fury too dump, Throw the nerf bat at us, couldn't care less but provide more engaging gameplay.

[Rucati]

I think it's fine, DH didn't really need anything and didn't really get anything. Don't see it as a big problem, and I'm actually fairly happy with the Vengeance changes too.

Crazy people are actually asking for Momentum to be baseline, that shit is literal trash and one of the worst designed things they've ever added, I'd drop my DH instantly if that shit was required. Even more so with the added focus on M+ content nowadays, movement is already limited in some of the dungeons, requiring you dash all over the fucking place for damage would make the class borderline unplayable there.

[Voidism]

I personally really love that vengeance is getting the demonic playstyle.

[Wangming]

Well OP most of the major changes are things that these classes had before Legion and are now getting back. Demon Hunter was never pruned so there is nothing to bring back.

[Wiltrold]

I'm just gonna copy a line from the class preview:

"This isn’t meant to be a comprehensive list of updates—these changes represent a starting point for a dialogue with the community—but this should give you a good overview of what to expect."

So you know, it's not the final list. If you get alpha/beta, give them the feedback.