Is Warmode better than the old PvP/PvE server system?

[Adamas102]

semantic error - it was PvP servers that were called “normal” (due to full freedom players' action, without coercion), PvE servers had their separate status (because they had restrictions) same way as RP servers had own one:

That's literally the opposite of how WoW realms began. Normal, PVP, RP, RPPVP where the choices. As far as I know those designations remain today on Classic.

[Blackmist]

Yes, because I can switch it off when it randomly decides to put me on a shard with a million horde.

Sharding and PvP only servers don't mix.

I don't think it's perfect. The reward system is crap, and I'd like to see a feature where killing a swarm of herb bots gives me a chunk of the herbs they farmed in the last minute. Would be nice to see actual PvP WQs as well.

[Kyphael]

I don't care either way but as a traditionalist, I liked the idea of PVP realms. I can see why it had to change though, and the bonuses for having it on my rogues and tank classes is nice.

[Accendor]

Of course not lol. How is this even a question? Completely destroyed the game in combination with sharding.

[Nachturnal]

To me: The Warmode system just makes Horde get free bonus XP and all alliance disable it unless they are doing a quest to kill x horde in x zone. Then they group up in a 5 man group until it's done and turn it off.

I rolled a PvP server to have some interesting PvP encounters. Seeing 10+ horde in the area for my Uldum quest just makes me go to the rested area and turn it off. Warmode on = horde meta. Warmode off = alliance meta. I can barely even find groups for quests with WM on as alliance.

It just straight up feels like it is a 10% Horde faction buff for everything they do. No wonder the faction snowballs to be more and more popular if they just get 10% bonus on everything they do...

Doesn't the faction that's dominant get a smaller xp boost? I've mostly played Alliance this expansion and it's been 25% for quite some time and since the Horde is still the most dominant race, it's remained as such.

But to answer the question, I enjoy Warmode as is. I just enjoy having choice.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Yes, it means I can finally play on the same server as my friends without the annoyance of groups of alliance ganking you. I turned it off the moment I logged in and haven't looked back. Only real annoyance is summoning groups for m+.

[LilSaihah]

BFA had two redeeming qualities; allied races and warmode. Everything else this expansion was garbage.

[Doffen]

Yeah, WM was a great change.

[Alkizon]

That's literally the opposite of how WoW realms began. Normal, PVP, RP, RPPVP where the choices. As far as I know those designations remain today on Classic.

Well, I can’t say anything for launch period, but at my time of joining the game (TBC) it was exactly as I wrote (I tried to find when it happened, but it’s difficult, search is complicated by topics of WoW Classic, but I can say that you're right about initial naming; I can't say how much memory fails me, too long ago I logged into any projects owned by Blizzard (before WoW-C), I treat them very squeamishly from known events, but at the end of their "separate existence", PvP servers were "normal" ones for sure). That's why I got to PvP server right away and was never disappointed with it while playing *shrugs* ... and then they started to change rules and voila - we're where we are. In my case, we don’t play anymore, mainly, of course, for a different reason, but if we "assume" our current direct participation in events, I won’t be afraid to declare from this part of community as a whole: they would demand PvP servers back with their freedom rules, instead of this heresy (which, however, is also true with respect to organization of "local servers", CRZ/phasing/shards for a particular game act on its community, as constant stream of radiation, which doesn't kill immediately, but goes beyond permissible norm, to any living organism). That's how it goes

It may well be, that precisely because there are very few people, who understand difference and want normal (= freedom) rules in the game now, which in turn leads to distortion of general statistics (old players in vast majority don't participate in movements or polls), so devs can't objectively assess potential need of market. In other words, the only result of such decisions is, that current subscribers, as a whole, will remain indifferent on this issue, but there will be no new ones, and given the way they "lose their positions on all fronts" of gameplay, first part of this sentence is also under big and bold question

I'm sorry, but you're simply misremembering.

you were too hurry with answer, I was still in "research" process it's ready now

[Adamas102]

Well, I can’t say anything for launch period, but at my time of joining the game (TBC) it was exactly as I wrote. That's why I got to PvP server right away and was never disappointed with it while playing *shrugs* ... and then they started to change rules and voila - we're where we are. In my case, we don’t play anymore, mainly, of course, for a different reason, but if we "assume" our current direct participation in events, I won’t be afraid to declare from this part of community as a whole: they would demand PvP servers back with their freedom rules, instead of this heresy. That's how it goes

It may well be that precisely because there are very few people who understand difference and want normal (= freedom) rules in the game now, which in turn leads to distortion of general statistics (old players in vast majority don't participate in movements or polls), so devs can't objectively assess potential need of market. In other words, the only result of such decisions is that current subscribers as a whole will remain indifferent on this issue, but there will be no new ones, and given the way they "lose their positions on all fronts" of gameplay, first part of this sentence is also under big and bold question

I'm sorry, but you're simply misremembering. At no point in time were WoW PVP realms referred to as "Normal". I have a feeling that a lot of this is just your projection of what the game should be according to what you personally enjoy about it. It sounds like PVP is a pretty pivotal part of what made WoW enjoyable for you, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, WoW was not designed as a PVP game. It's a secondary feature at best (which is why PVE realms were always designated as "Normal" realms). That's why for the most part WoW has never really incentivized world PVP. It never had any stakes to it; no rewards, no real penalties. There are MMO's out there where world PVP is an engaging part of the gameplay, but WoW was never one of them.

The only difference between the old system (PVP realms) and the new system (Warmode) is that you aren't hamstrung by the choice you made at character creation. If anything I'd consider the current system to be a better example of "freedom rules" since people are now free to participate in this secondary aspect of the game if and when they want. Given almost 15 years of experience on a PVP realm (because that's where my friends decided to roll characters back in 2005), most players are not interested in world PVP. There's no way that Blizzard wasn't aware of that fact either when they decided to shift to the Warmode system. Now, the people who want it can have it and those who don't want it don't have to participate.

[Tradu]

Yes, all it's missing is the removal of the extra incentives so it's actually just there for the people who want to play in it.

[Alkizon]

Re-read the previous message.

Adamas102
I'm sorry

What you are talking about is not freedom of choice, because it's not choice in principle, it's setting to participate in current activity, flexible option. You (as character in the world, we are talking about immersion, this is the only legal and logical way for player to interact with game's virtual world) make choice by behavior, not by interface (that's real healthy amount of freedom)... do you understand this difference?
- 1 -

You can't “turn off PvP server”, so your character has to live with consequences of your choice. Those, who understood this simple, but, at the same time, very important condition, had characters on both types of servers and everything worked fine to them, but there're people... who believe, that whole world should revolve around their problems with neglecting own conditions.

you, as well as devs, continue to not understand what wPvP really is - it's unorganized, not specifically motivated, unpredictable process): so about WM - either there is incentive and this is BG, or there is no incentive and this is ghost town.

= = = = simple proof from point of healthy game conditions = = = =
since, from game's adequate technical side, in order to receive rewards (and nobody needs it without rewarding), you need to participate in more or less complication-balanced activity, activity with at least some complexity (matching rewards to "labor-time"), and it can't be organized in framework of current WM design (whole world toggle)... so it have to be BG (which is only working such one here, balance&rewards, but with commitment, no choice in participation, was built for mandatory fight activity) and PvP servers (which is about no balance&rewards, but about every minute freedom of choice) should be returned. Q.E.D.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

ps. Toggles are settings, but not choice, they have no permissions to change gameplay (any part of), which, however, is equally true for any “situational” automation.

- 2 -
(I won’t going to quote it, since it's talking about sharing mobs and loot, but topic also concerns freedom and consequences of momentary choice, so is also about regulation rules)

Adamas102
Toggles are choice

NEVER EVER!

Choice implies absence of its secondary nature, otherwise it can be done infinitely many times without any consequences and it ceases to be “significant” (often remaining invisible and unimportant to everyone, even including yourself), which means that being real one... and become toggle/settings/option. Everything is simple. If you are afraid of choice, these are already your personal problems, game doesn't make sense to take this into account.

Adamas102
for a game like WoW.

retail WoW - yeah, very much likely; WoW, that I played once - nope:

you aren't right simply because you proceed from its current design: from availability of universally fast and easily accessible equipment, from incredible growth (see forge-items&multi-difficulties systems as main reasons) of stats and characteristics within (now), not even expansions, but portions of content, from short, but with many difficulties dungeons and same stupid raids, from "depersonalizing/individualizing gameplay" social organization of servers, etc. In other words, when we argue, we not only look from different angles of view, but also at completely different "resulting" design systems... but it's if we assume that you're able to think more globally, and not only within "current private inconvenience".

this is what made this game stand out... before. People made choices, publicly, courageously, and showed everyone that they were ready to bear responsibility for its consequences, if required... or learned from their mistakes. Сurrent game has no choice and doesn't teach responsibility, that is why a lot of people are "tormented by killing themselves" by trying to cover all options. This is something that game wasn't originally going to stoop to.

[Adamas102]

/snip

Look, this back and forth was originally about you misremembering the difference between Normal realms and PVP realms. The rest is mostly just a matter of opinion.

WM is absolutely a choice, though. Toggles are choice, whether you like it or not. You can talk about "immersion" all you want, but as far as I'm concerned WoW has always been a low RP type of game. Choices are EXTREMELY limited by design so complaining that PVE realms or WM are immersion breaking is silly to say the least. Making a binding choice on a potentially major gameplay system at character creation is NOT good game design IMO. You want characters to have important choices to make for immersive gameplay? Put those choices IN GAME where they belong.

As I said before, if you miss the old system that's fine. That's your prerogative. I never said they should get rid of PVP servers. I never campaigned against them or sent Blizzard angry emails about them. However, I never considered it to be compelling or immersive gameplay, and it was certainly not clear when I rolled my characters back in the mid 2000s what the ramifications would be almost a decade later. I think WM is an acceptable bandaid. I would have been perfectly fine with free character transfers from PVP to PVE realms.

EDIT: just read your second quote link. The loot drop rules do make sense, but for someone who seems to value immersion, I find it ridiculous how against shared tagging you apparently are. If an NPC asks me to kill a mob, why should they care whether I participated in a kill with non-grouped players? Did the mob die and was I part of the kill? That's all that should really matter to the NPC.

I don’t specifically want to discuss tags here, but I repeat once again - they're needed exclusively in individual+group order, no “hit&get every”

In this case it seems immersion takes a backseat to forced socialization (grouping). After all, how "immersive" is it to kill the same named mob several times with no credit simply because someone else got the tag? The point I'm trying to make here is that "immersion" is a terrible argument to make for a game like WoW.