Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Ardenaso]

yet blizz f8cked up really hard in this, draenei HD should hate regular draenei the most for the cowards they were who run away left them fighting impossible war, even in 7.3 quests they hated draenei and velen, then they joined alliance (what?)

can I have more on this

[sam86]

can I have more on this

more of what ? hating against draenei ?
just do the quests in 7.3, they are flat out hostile against Velen

[Alixie]

Part of the reason why the Alliance feels boring is because the writers keep stealing characters, cities, and lore that are iconic to Alliance races, and either making them neutral or part of the Horde.

[Leodric]

why exactly are u ignoring the fact that Eredar (yes that is the race name) are mainly pure evil and one of highest evil ranks in warcraft history, and Draenei are the extreme minority exception, yet insist that all orcs are bloodthirsty, even if in MU we've seen multiple clans refuse to drink blood and as result get wiped out (only frostworlf get lucky and just exiled) by rest of the blood-driven horde?
Don't forget that AU crap is basically that, entire WoD 'lore' is a big shit on rest of wow lore that doesn't make sense, easiest example is Blackhand, the same guy who threw his own kids to Gul'dan to keep his position as warchief, has backstory of sacrifice himself for his tribe (what the F*CK?)
If u insist on use AU crap then it also backfires as it show draenei are exactly as orcs thought they are and fanatics, just this time on the other side (aka light), orcs tend to solve problems with their fists but draenei are race of almost purely extremists
Also WoD didn't present all draenor, we see only the major continent of the planet, not everything

I am not arguing that AU lore is good lore, it's crap as it is but sadly it belongs to WoW lore so we have to consider the stuff which is happening there as well. Most peoples reaction to Yrel going fanatical was called out as bullshit, anyone who played the Alliance quests should know that. It's not about me "insisting" anything, it is how it is and we have to accept it. And as you've said it, Orcs tend to solve their problems with their fists (very lightly put btw, they almost always massacre people on mass), which I am trying to say here the whole time. Putting Draenei and Orcs on the same level of aggressive behaviour, which some try to do here, is laughable at best.

U ignored - again - the lightforged draenei (or draenei HD if u like memes) who appeared in Legion
they are literally a fraction of draenei who refused to run away and stood and fight for infinity of time against legion instead of running away killing innocents in the struggle
So we have actual example of what draenei should done but refused to do
yet blizz f8cked up really hard in this, draenei HD should hate regular draenei the most for the cowards they were who run away left them fighting impossible war, even in 7.3 quests they hated draenei and velen, then they joined alliance (what?)

Yes, because everyone is as brave as the other person and you should expect everyone to fight, especially the children and women . They did exactly what they should have done. If Velen wouldn't have ran away, they wouldn't have find their way to Azeroth, which basically was the right call to finally destroy the burning legion as it was. You people are all so tough and can't try to imagine yourself in their situation. I doubt that anyone would stand against a mass murdering force with basically 0 chance to survive instead of running away.

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As chronicles 2 said orcs were extremely wary of draenai how they treated ogre after beating them and many clans said they would treat draenai with outright hostility meaning draenai caused the orcs to distrust them long before Garrosh came and they never sought to make their relations better.

For the third time, doesn't excuse genocide any bit.

Humans slaughtered civilians too left and right against troll in all of their war so they really can't complain. Also Humans invaded the planet too and sought to overthrow native races ad exterminate them and yeah losing war I understand that but just killing all orcs fastly if far morally better than make mothers kill their sons heck they even forced orcs who didn't fight in the wars to fight in interment camps.

Yes it's fucked up and I highly doubt that everyone would have been ok with it. But what we see with the Orcs is a way wider spectrum of aggressive behaviour, time and time again. As I've said already, two wrongs don't make right, so the Humans treating the Orcs badly (which by the way was AFTER the Orcs tried to genocide them) doesn't excuse Orc behaviour in any way.

Also killing civilians in war is extremely normal in mediaval times heck mongols destroyed entire population and salted lands for few countries they conquered and only in modern times being a civilians have any value and no race in azeroth is culturally in modern times not even Garroshes trial judged him for killing civilians.

No it was not "extremly" normal in medieval times to destroy entire populations. The mongols didn't do that everytime, basically they killed civilians if the occupied country resisted. I could name you hundreds of examples where no killing of civilians happened after one side won against the other during medieval times. Plus, to keep the discussion in the warcraft universe, we've seen that warcrimes exist and the backlash the killing of civilians caused in the warcraft universe, it's not seen as normal there as well. Trying to portray the Orcs again not as fucked up brutal as they are because "killing civilians was considered normal" is mental gymnastics at best again.

Humans knew medivh used dark powers to kill his father(accident but still did it) and still they used his powers so humans knowingly accepted persons help who used dark powers which turned out to be sargeras.

Cool, first it was rumoured, now it is know, what is it now, can you decide? Which by the way still doesn't mean that Humans resorted to Sargeras power, you twist a lot of stuff here to accommodate your head cannon. This is my last reply to you by the way since I can't keep up with the mental gymnastics of a horde apologist with this dimension.

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i disagree
it is simply because alliance massively outnumber horde and by miles, stormwind alone has more citizens than every other horde capital combined
When ur faction is ~ a million vs a faction that doesn't even get to 500k, u need that 1 million faction to have many of its ppl go neutral or else there will be zero potential of a conflict

I would agree if Blizzard somehow managed to keep population number as some kind of important factor in this conflict, but after all these wars every faction should be reduced to just a few people. So I don't think that Blizzard considers population number per faction as something important when creating neutral characters.

I think it's a mix of already existing characters which have been considered "good" (mostly characters from WC1 + WC2, where the distinctions between the Alliance being the good side and the Horde begin the evil side was stronger) and Blizzard not giving a fuck to keep it somehow even.

[Darth-Piekus]

A critical question exists right now. Considering Sylvannas no longer has the plot armor of a playable faction will the Neutral Faction join the hunt along with the Alliance and the Horde to end the former Warchief?

[Terongor]

I am not arguing that AU lore is good lore, it's crap as it is but sadly it belongs to WoW lore so we have to consider the stuff which is happening there as well. Most peoples reaction to Yrel going fanatical was called out as bullshit, anyone who played the Alliance quests should know that. It's not about me "insisting" anything, it is how it is and we have to accept it. And as you've said it, Orcs tend to solve their problems with their fists (very lightly put btw, they almost always massacre people on mass), which I am trying to say here the whole time. Putting Draenei and Orcs on the same level of aggressive behaviour, which some try to do here, is laughable at best.



Yes, because everyone is as brave as the other person and you should expect everyone to fight, especially the children and women . They did exactly what they should have done. If Velen wouldn't have ran away, they wouldn't have find their way to Azeroth, which basically was the right call to finally destroy the burning legion as it was. You people are all so tough and can't try to imagine yourself in their situation. I doubt that anyone would stand against a mass murdering force with basically 0 chance to survive instead of running away.

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For the third time, doesn't excuse genocide any bit.



Yes it's fucked up and I highly doubt that everyone would have been ok with it. But what we see with the Orcs is a way wider spectrum of aggressive behaviour, time and time again. As I've said already, two wrongs don't make right, so the Humans treating the Orcs badly (which by the way was AFTER the Orcs tried to genocide them) doesn't excuse Orc behaviour in any way.



No it was not "extremly" normal in medieval times to destroy entire populations. The mongols didn't do that everytime, basically they killed civilians if the occupied country resisted. I could name you hundreds of examples where no killing of civilians happened after one side won against the other during medieval times. Plus, to keep the discussion in the warcraft universe, we've seen that warcrimes exist and the backlash the killing of civilians caused in the warcraft universe, it's not seen as normal there as well. Trying to portray the Orcs again not as fucked up brutal as they are because "killing civilians was considered normal" is mental gymnastics at best again.



Cool, first it was rumoured, now it is know, what is it now, can you decide? Which by the way still doesn't mean that Humans resorted to Sargeras power, you twist a lot of stuff here to accommodate your head cannon. This is my last reply to you by the way since I can't keep up with the mental gymnastics of a horde apologist with this dimension.

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I would agree if Blizzard somehow managed to keep population number as some kind of important factor in this conflict, but after all these wars every faction should be reduced to just a few people. So I don't think that Blizzard considers population number per faction as something important when creating neutral characters.

I think it's a mix of already existing characters which have been considered "good" (mostly characters from WC1 + WC2, where the distinctions between the Alliance being the good side and the Horde begin the evil side was stronger) and Blizzard not giving a fuck to keep it somehow even.

It doesn't excuse it I never said it does its just pretty logical for their POV as after that Garrosh came from future and elements agreed with him on Gul'dan, legion and what happened the orcs in MU azeroth invasion and elements were very suprised which orcs noticed so after that the same guys tells them these are evil of draenai and so given draenais history on draenor it would be logical for the natives also nothing excuses genoicide though nothing but itself it morally wrong or right it all depends on a person who sees and from someone POV genocide isn't bad.

I'm not saying it makes it right I'm saying they can't complain about it as they have done it before and orcs didn't try genocide alterac so not all of humanity and orgrim was never stated to want to kill every single human.

Killing every single person is uncommon but killing civilians is mediaval times in plenty of sieges we had the soldiers after breaching the walls go mad and attack everything they see loot, kill and rape so in mediaval warfare its pretty common as it was seen normal good example is crusaders in middle east.

Have you biographies of people from mediaval times if there was this kind of rumor from a person of high ranking those rumores would be kept alive by common folk believing it as such it would natural for them to believe it and in wc lore it pretty common for magics show up in specific colours and him using colours which isn't common on that attack should raise more questions and doubts on medivh.

[sam86]

I am not arguing that AU lore is good lore, it's crap as it is but sadly it belongs to WoW lore so we have to consider the stuff which is happening there as well. Most peoples reaction to Yrel going fanatical was called out as bullshit, anyone who played the Alliance quests should know that. It's not about me "insisting" anything, it is how it is and we have to accept it. And as you've said it, Orcs tend to solve their problems with their fists (very lightly put btw, they almost always massacre people on mass), which I am trying to say here the whole time. Putting Draenei and Orcs on the same level of aggressive behaviour, which some try to do here, is laughable at best.

orcs only crime was genocide against race who was isolated for 300 years and looks like demons without explaining anything, and their very minor interaction wasn't always positive, while draenei literally caused the extinction of countless number of lives in their running from planets, orcs needs to be responsible for at least countless genocides to start to be on equal foot as draenei, and draenei knew the fate of anyone they go to, hence why draenei HD stood and fought, to not involve innocent ppl with the fact that majority of their race is pure evil

Yes, because everyone is as brave as the other person and you should expect everyone to fight, especially the children and women . They did exactly what they should have done. If Velen wouldn't have ran away, they wouldn't have find their way to Azeroth, which basically was the right call to finally destroy the burning legion as it was. You people are all so tough and can't try to imagine yourself in their situation. I doubt that anyone would stand against a mass murdering force with basically 0 chance to survive instead of running away.

We still see women (but no children) in draenei HD, and u can't claim high morals when u cause literally extinction of countless lives so u stay alive, it just show u have zero morals and will do anything to stay alive even if that cause the death of everyone else, which they did
Only orcs bit back, and they still f8cked themselves and their entire planet as result

I would agree if Blizzard somehow managed to keep population number as some kind of important factor in this conflict, but after all these wars every faction should be reduced to just a few people. So I don't think that Blizzard considers population number per faction as something important when creating neutral characters.

The only confirmed war to cause massive casualties was the scourge war in wrath, where Stormwind lost ~ 200k or something like that as shown in Prelude to Cataclysm book candle scene
Also i assume that the 4th blood war also had same numbers, but generally wars in warcraft doesn't reduce population that much, on reverse they seem to reproduce more than they lose, that was the normal after all in medieval era, ppl main hobby was to f8ck

[Leodric]

orcs only crime was genocide against race who was isolated for 300 years and looks like demons without explaining anything, and their very minor interaction wasn't always positive, while draenei literally caused the extinction of countless number of lives in their running from planets, orcs needs to be responsible for at least countless genocides to start to be on equal foot as draenei, and draenei knew the fate of anyone they go to, hence why draenei HD stood and fought, to not involve innocent ppl with the fact that majority of their race is pure evil

We still see women (but no children) in draenei HD, and u can't claim high morals when u cause literally extinction of countless lives so u stay alive, it just show u have zero morals and will do anything to stay alive even if that cause the death of everyone else, which they did
Only orcs bit back, and they still f8cked themselves and their entire planet as result

Yep, actually swining the Axe and running away for your life from the force who actually genocided these races/planets is a whole different thing. Not buying into that victim blaming, sorry.

Also i assume that the 4th blood war also had same numbers, but generally wars in warcraft doesn't reduce population that much, on reverse they seem to reproduce more than they lose, that was the normal after all in medieval era, ppl main hobby was to f8ck

Which is my main problem, somehow they don't reduce the population even though they have to fight massive number of threats, usually at the same time, the last decades on top of the normal problems a medieval society has to solve. Which is ok since Warcraft was never intended to be that realisitc in the first place, so the whole population number thing isn't really relevant in their lore decisions afaik.*

[sam86]

Yep, actually swining the Axe and running away for your life from the force who actually genocided these races/planets is a whole different thing. Not buying into that victim blaming, sorry.

this isn't 'victim blaming', this is fact
Draenei HD show that u can and should stand and fight against evil, not cause death of billions who were just bystanders, Draenei on purpose caused the extinction of countless lives on numerous planets to stay alive, to call them after all that innocents is a very bad stretch, specially since they themselves don't even think that way
What the orcs did was bad, but they are nowhere as bad as Draenei, who are still dwarfed by of course the force who did that in first place, the BL

Which is my main problem, somehow they don't reduce the population even though they have to fight massive number of threats, usually at the same time, the last decades on top of the normal problems a medieval society has to solve. Which is ok since Warcraft was never intended to be that realisitc in the first place, so the whole population number thing isn't really relevant in their lore decisions afaik.*

Back when wow had more mature tone they discussed that a little, i remember that nelf specially were only race in problem since they aren't used to reproduce since they were immortals and isolated and all that, goblins on other hand reproduce like rabbits
Then specially from wrath+ after the 'backlash' of media against torture quests wow started to go more kids friendly and they decided the rpg aren't canon anyway (ironic it was just for Jaina brother story, only to make him canon later) so we have no real idea about sex life in azeroth and probably won't
tldr: only nelfs are under threat of going extinct due to low libido, rest of races fuck more than their races die

[Leodric]

this isn't 'victim blaming', this is fact
Draenei HD show that u can and should stand and fight against evil, not cause death of billions who were just bystanders, Draenei on purpose caused the extinction of countless lives on numerous planets to stay alive, to call them after all that innocents is a very bad stretch, specially since they themselves don't even think that way
What the orcs did was bad, but they are nowhere as bad as Draenei, who are still dwarfed by of course the force who did that in first place, the BL

It is victim blaming, the burning legion destroyed these planets, not the Draenei. I know it's hard to grasp for some, but the Draenei were refugees trying to escape. The burning legion would have anyways tried to destroy every planet, it's not as if they would have stopped when they got the Draenei and be all like "ok cool, we killed them, now let's go back and leave all these other planets alone". So tell me why it is so important for the Draenei letting themselves get captured?

[Domm530]

Thats actually a verry easy awnser;

Humans,
They kill, destroy, enslave anything in their path.

[korijenkins]

Because Alliance are and always have been the good guys. There have been attempts to play the Alliance off as evil, or the Horde off as good, but ultimately the Horde are still the "bad" faction generally speaking. There are only some occasions where the factions act as the villain or the good guy, against their respective roles, but for the most part it sticks.

So by that logic, the Alliance factions are accepting and wiling to work with them more often.

Of course, the real reason is that it's an MMO and they have to have groups that work with both factions, and sometimes it's just easier to make exceptions.

[Domm530]

Because Alliance are and always have been the good guys. There have been attempts to play the Alliance off as evil, or the Horde off as good, but ultimately the Horde are still the "bad" faction generally speaking. There are only some occasions where the factions act as the villain or the good guy, against their respective roles, but for the most part it sticks.

So by that logic, the Alliance factions are accepting and wiling to work with them more often.

Of course, the real reason is that it's an MMO and they have to have groups that work with both factions, and sometimes it's just easier to make exceptions.

They have litterly never been the good guys, they however always take the moral high ground and pretend to be the good guys, theirs nothing in the lore that would even validate what you just spew, both factions are morally grey, and always will be.

[sam86]

It is victim blaming, the burning legion destroyed these planets, not the Draenei. I know it's hard to grasp for some, but the Draenei were refugees trying to escape. The burning legion would have anyways tried to destroy every planet, it's not as if they would have stopped when they got the Draenei and be all like "ok cool, we killed them, now let's go back and leave all these other planets alone". So tell me why it is so important for the Draenei letting themselves get captured?

Then u missed the point
There are 2 type of draenei:
1- the type who want to survive at any cost and caused literally the destruction of countless planets and millions of billions of lives just to stay alive themselves
2- the type who refused to cause harm to innocent lives and decided to stand and fight because they know if they decide to run, they will live, but they will 100% cause the death of millions of billions of lives, so they refuse to do so

Which type of them is the actually good heroic, and which one is selfish a88hole who care only for himself at the cost of every other living creature to ever exist?

Because Alliance are and always have been the good guys.

they never were!
they are literally hypocrite walking on 2 legs, alliance blame horde for try to do what they literally did many times
Humans practiced successful genocide against trolls everywhere to steal their lands
Nelfs did that
Even high elves (who ironically still alliance race) did that too
Draenei caused the death of infinite number of lives just to stay alive
Then u call them innocent ? The worst thing horde did was genocide against Draenei on dreanor, and even that failed since - if u missed - draenei exist still in large numbers to be a main faction, the biggest difference between allied race and a main race is that: numbers of surviving of said race
Heck alliance keep yelling for Lordearon ignoring the ppl who literally died defending it against scourge, because being weak undead remove ur rights from alliance pov, but if u were a strong undead like DKs then alliance welcome u, alliance can only practice genocide against weaker races

What Teneras II did was the exception, and only exception of alliance beating an enemy and not doing their favorite hobby of genocide against them, alliance did it to trolls to very successful degree, tried it twice (and failed) against belfs, tried it against Forsaken (they are literally the reason why Forsaken became evil), tried it against Goblins of Kezan for dare to exist!

[Leodric]

Then u missed the point
There are 2 type of draenei:
1- the type who want to survive at any cost and caused literally the destruction of countless planets and millions of billions of lives just to stay alive themselves
2- the type who refused to cause harm to innocent lives and decided to stand and fight because they know if they decide to run, they will live, but they will 100% cause the death of millions of billions of lives, so they refuse to do so

Which type of them is the actually good heroic, and which one is selfish a88hole who care only for himself at the cost of every other living creature to ever exist?
!

I still don't see my question answered what difference it would have made if the Draenai ran away or not regarding the "billions of life lost". They didn't cause the destruction of countless planets, the burning legion would have destroyed them with the Draenei already being killed or not. If anything, thanks to the Draenei the burning legion was finally destroyed. What I see though is constant victim blaming.

[Ardenaso]

What Teneras II did was the exception!

on a second note, if Terenas agreed to quarantine or genocide the orcs for real the Plague and/or the Legion invasion might have never happened in the first place

[omeomorfismo]

I still don't see my question answered what difference it would have made if the Draenai ran away or not regarding the "billions of life lost". They didn't cause the destruction of countless planets, the burning legion would have destroyed them with the Draenei already being killed or not. If anything, thanks to the Draenei the burning legion was finally destroyed. What I see though is constant victim blaming.

lol this is like saying that a contagious guy should be free to go wherever they want only because it wasnt his fault to be ill, and excuse him with "anyway everyone will die"

[Leodric]

lol this is like saying that a contagious guy should be free to go wherever they want only because it wasnt his fault to be ill, and excuse him with "anyway everyone will die"

No it's not. If you are contagious and stay at home you can actually make a difference and save lies (the current situation in the world shows it perfectly), without risking your life by running away. You staying at home and not having contact with other people helps to not spread the disease.

If there is a mass murdering entity which goal it is to destroy all life in the universe, like the burning legion, it actually does make a difference if you run away because you can still save your life and you running away doesn't make a difference because, unlike the contagious disease, the burning legion is not bound to you but open to do whatever the fuck they want to. As we've seen with the Dranei, it turned out fine --> They were able to save their lifes + helped to destroy the burning legion.

[omeomorfismo]

No it's not. If you are contagious and stay at home you can actually make a difference and save lies (the current situation in the world shows it perfectly), without risking your life by running away. You staying at home and not having contact with other people helps to not spread the disease.

If there is a mass murdering entity which goal it is to destroy all life in the universe, like the burning legion, it actually does make a difference if you run away because you can still save your life and you running away doesn't make a difference because, unlike the contagious disease, the burning legion is not bound to you but open to do whatever the fuck they want to. As we've seen with the Dranei, it turned out fine --> They were able to save their lifes + helped to destroy the burning legion.

rotfl, how having draenor destroyed and purged of life (plus tons of other planets) can be seen as "turned out fine".
you are constantly writing like if delaying the coming of the BL wouldnt change anything, but as we seen in wod, an advanced and prepared orc civilization could resist the legion invasion even pretty easily, but ehy, apparently is better to use them as scapegoats and hope to escape before being genocided.

[Leodric]

rotfl, how having draenor destroyed and purged of life (plus tons of other planets) can be seen as "turned out fine".
you are constantly writing like if delaying the coming of the BL wouldnt change anything, but as we seen in wod, an advanced and prepared orc civilization could resist the legion invasion even pretty easily, but ehy, apparently is better to use them as scapegoats and hope to escape before being genocided.

In my opinion it turned out fine if we look at the bigger picture that the burning legion was stopped. They destroyed many planets, one more or less doesn't matter in the bigger picture. We don't really know how this whole burning legion thing would have ended without the Draenei fleeing for their lives, what we know is that they helped in destroying it and that it was a good decision for them and Azeroth. Which also shows again how comparing the Draenei fleeing with a contagious disease isn't right.

What we have seen in WoD is them falling again for corruption and drinking the blood, even after being warned, so WoD was not really a good point for the Orcs.
Anyways, derailed the thread so much already it's not even about the main topic anymore. For me the whole discussion if the Draenei are Evil or not won't change anything. At the end it's grasping at straws and victim blaming in my opinion.