Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Aucald]

The Danuser-Golden writing team is just so laughably wacko.

Sylvanas loyalists are now supposed to accept her as a straight-out villain...because she talked some random smack in front of Orgrimmar?

This is why I don't pay attention to WOW lore anymore.

The "random smack" in question here was her basically throwing the entire Horde, even her own Forsaken, under the proverbial bus - then finding out the bus was quite literal as she planned and still plans to feed everyone to the Maw.

[kansor]

The "random smack" in question here was her basically throwing the entire Horde, even her own Forsaken, under the proverbial bus - then finding out the bus was quite literal as she planned and still plans to feed everyone to the Maw.

I mean, it's a nonsensical scene from top to bottom, from the question of how Saurfang could predict what her reaction would be ("or perhaps...only one" makes it clear that the mak'gora is not just a deathwish on his part) to Sylvanas's instant willingness to just fold all the cards and fly away because she made an eyebrow-raising comment, to the fact that the people on the wall were far out of earshot and wouldn't have heard her.

You may say it's a really bad comment, but it's her talking smack directly to Saurfang, a traitor -- "your Horde", etc. Realistically (and again, no one but the people in her immediate vicinity would even have heard her) it would not have caused her Forsaken loyalists to suddenly see her as a villain.

But I don't want to discuss that scene because it's sludge not worth scrutiny. I just meant that it's funny that the loyalist players have stuck with her despite genocides and plague bombs yet the writers think that a moment of smack talk aimed at a traitor would suddenly make them change their minds. Especially her Forsaken, to whom the orcish MUH HONORZ stuff is meaningless.

[Aucald]

I mean, it's a nonsensical scene from top to bottom, from the question of how Saurfang could predict what her reaction would be ("or perhaps...only one" makes it clear that the mak'gora is not just a deathwish on his part) to Sylvanas's instant willingness to just fold all the cards and fly away because she made an eyebrow-raising comment, to the fact that the people on the wall were far out of earshot and wouldn't have heard her.

I think Saurfang's goal was to sacrifice himself to rouse the Horde to its better self, hoping against hope that the Horde would see Sylvanas' cruel and dishonorable conduct and reject her accordingly - Sylvanas sabotaging herself in her anger was a bonus, and Saurfang's triumphant smirk in that moment shows it. I don't think he planned that by any means, but it was his hope Sylvanas would reveal something of her true nature (which it so happens she did in spades).

You may say it's a really bad comment, but it's her talking smack directly to Saurfang, a traitor -- "your Horde", etc. Realistically (and again, no one but the people in her immediate vicinity would even have heard her) it would not have caused her Forsaken loyalists to suddenly see her as a villain.

People were all along the battlements of Orgrimmar, within easy earshot of the battle (and Sylvanas doesn't whisper it or anything like that). Her own standard-bearer is also right there, and her side-eye to Sylvanas shows that her comment wasn't just received as smack-talk to Saurfang. The words cut pretty deep, especially to the Forsaken who already deep down internalize a fear that they are nothing as mere undead shades of their lives. I think support for Sylvanas was already balanced pretty precariously, and this was just a tipping point for many (though not all).

But I don't want to discuss that scene because it's sludge not worth scrutiny. I just meant that it's funny that the loyalist players have stuck with her despite genocides and plague bombs yet the writers think that a moment of smack talk aimed at a traitor would suddenly make them change their minds. Especially her Forsaken, to whom the orcish MUH HONORZ stuff is meaningless.

Orcish honor doesn't matter to the Forsaken, but Sylvanas' patronage and the idea that she fights on their behalf certainly does. When you rule by force of personality, practically in the manner of a cult, having your true thoughts unveiled to your worshipers can cause some real damage.

[kansor]

People were all along the battlements of Orgrimmar, within easy earshot of the battle (and Sylvanas doesn't whisper it or anything like that).

The situation looked similar to if she were down on a football field and the people on the wall were up on high seating. Without megaphones/sound systems, you can't hear someone muttering a monologue at that distance. Yes, the bannerbearer heard, and so did Thrall and Anduin. But the banner-bearer saying this is unlikely to result in a miraculous political swerve like what's shown in the cutscene (even if they don't succeed at silencing the bannerbearer first), and Thrall or Anduin saying it is easily dismissable as propaganda.

I think support for Sylvanas was already balanced pretty precariously, and this was just a tipping point for many (though not all).

And that's how they tried to paint it, with BtS suddenly announcing that Sylvanas runs a tyrannical security state etc etc. What it runs counter to is all the lore we had prior to BFA.

When you rule by force of personality, practically in the manner of a cult, having your true thoughts unveiled to your worshipers can cause some real damage.

IRL politics can provide some counter-examples.

[Aucald]

The situation looked similar to if she were down on a football field and the people on the wall were up on high seating. Without megaphones/sound systems, you can't hear someone muttering a monologue at that distance. Yes, the bannerbearer heard, and so did Thrall and Anduin. But the banner-bearer saying this is unlikely to result in a miraculous political swerve like what's shown in the cutscene (even if they don't succeed at silencing the bannerbearer first), and Thrall or Anduin saying it is easily dismissable as propaganda.

She's pretty far from "muttering," and it's later obvious that the people on the battlements heard her well enough.

And that's how they tried to paint it, with BtS suddenly announcing that Sylvanas runs a tyrannical security state etc etc. What it runs counter to is all the lore we had prior to BFA.

"Before the Storm" occurs well before BfA even begins, and her Mak'gora with Saurfang is after a long and grueling war spanning the face of Azeroth. It's an arc of descent we see several times - from 8.1 to 8.1.5 to 8.2 and so on.

IRL politics can provide some counter-examples.

Unfortunately so, but a few exceptions don't really undermine the rule. Many people have been set back or even ruined by supplying the unvarnished truth in a moment of anger or fit of pique.

[bagina]

The people who throw the biggest tantrums and cry the loudest are Sylvie haters. Everything she does, they take very personally. She invokes some really violent reactions, which is hilarious to me. I meanwhile, will be enjoying the show and you won't hear a peep from me when they kill her off. To the naysayers, refer to my avatar.

[Varodoc]

The people who throw the biggest tantrums and cry the loudest are Sylvie haters. Everything she does, they take very personally. She invokes some really violent reactions, which is hilarious to me. I meanwhile, will be enjoying the show and you won't hear a peep from me when they kill her off. To the naysayers, refer to my avatar.

Okay.

/10chars

[Powerogue]

Calling it now: Rematch Mak'gora with Saurfang in the Shadowlands who is now a hulking Abomination upgraded by the Necrolords. He grabs her in a giant fist made of flesh and bones and she shouts in despair: "I trusted you! You made me what I am!"

And he flattens her with a giant club.

That's some "assassination" I would watch on loop.

...

I'll show myself out.

If there's one character I really hope we don't meet it's Saurfang, let that guy rest; it's his whole thing.

- - - Updated - - -

firstly, go through this thread and see how many times sylvanas is called a bitch. then look at how many times garrosh is called something derogatory. this is why we need feminism.

Speaking of, one thing I do want is Ghost-Garrosh and a callback to this moment:

[Aucald]

If there's one character I really hope we don't meet it's Saurfang, let that guy rest, it's his whole thing.

I'm expecting we'll meet him - but I do hope it's only at a cameo level and he doesn't have a really significant role to play. I like Saurfang as a character, but I think he's had his day and then some.

[Varodoc]

Speaking of, one thing I do want is Ghost-Garrosh and a callback to this moment:

Garrosh was short-sighted, stubborn, foolish, arrogant, and completely insane. But if there's one thing he did right, it was putting Sylvanas in her place.

[MrDaemon]

Can't wait for sylvie to still be alive after this expansion ends. Cries of haters will flood the world.

[Aucald]

Can't wait for sylvie to still be alive after this expansion ends. Cries of haters will flood the world.

I don't hate Sylvanas, personally speaking - I think she's a fine character, although I don't like her on a personal level (I find her personality and actions odious in the extreme). I do however think she's been in the spotlight way too long, looming large in what will be 3 back-to-back expansions now. It's time for her to take her final bow and exit the stage, in whatever form that happens to take.

[MrDaemon]

I don't hate Sylvanas, personally speaking - I think she's a fine character, although I don't like her on a personal level (I find her personality and actions odious in the extreme). I do however think she's been in the spotlight way too long, looming large in what will be 3 back-to-back expansions now. It's time for her to take her final bow and exit the stage, in whatever form that happens to take.

So she should be killed because she is in the game for too long. Sounds like super weak reason to get rid of her. Personally I didn't like Saurfang bullshit at all and I had to go through it anyways.

[Aucald]

So she should be killed because she is in the game for too long. Sounds like super weak reason to get rid of her. Personally I didn't like Saurfang bullshit at all and I had to go through it anyways.

Killing her is one way to do it, sure. Oblivion, permanent imprisonment, or transfiguring her into someone or something else entirely are examples of others. Saurfang was really only a fixture in one expansion, namely BfA; and he died after his long season in the spotlight. Same with Garrosh, who loomed large in three expansions as well (Cata, MoP, and WoD) but finally met his end in WoD. What's good for the goose as the old saying goes.

[Josyel]

I miss Varimathas, true leader of the Forsaken.

[Varodoc]

So she should be killed because she is in the game for too long. Sounds like super weak reason to get rid of her. Personally I didn't like Saurfang bullshit at all and I had to go through it anyways.

What's wrong with killing a villain who has become stale and can't offer anything new anymore?

This is the climax of Sylvanas' negative character arc. She will ultimately be defeated in Shadowlands. It's so obvious this is her last expansion.

[Mehrunes]

Pre-Cata Deathwing was an actually an interesting villain - Machiavellian, intelligent, and capable of long-term and cunning plans. A far cry from the Deathwing we see in Cata, who while more personally powerful is also another slavering maniac with a monomaniacal focus on destruction.

Maybe Sylvanas is a retread of Deathwing as a case study in dumbing down characters with "nuances".

[Aucald]

Maybe Sylvanas is a retread of Deathwing as a case study in dumbing down characters with "nuances".

Certainly a valid argument - the Sylvanas of Classic through WotLK is superior to her latter presentation in terms of the story. Damage done, unfortunately.

[Houle]

So she should be killed because she is in the game for too long. Sounds like super weak reason to get rid of her. Personally I didn't like Saurfang bullshit at all and I had to go through it anyways.

I love it when Sylv fans intentionally ignore everything someone really said.
Ironically enough, it'll be ur tears thatll flood the forum after shell be dealt with this xpax, one way or another.

[Varodoc]

People will cry either way. She gets redeemed, we cry. She dies, they cry. The real question is for how long that will last, because by 10.0 I hope Sylvanas threads like this one can finally vanish.