Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[JohnBrown1917]

So, Democrats made another horrible nomination choice. Somehow even worse than Clinton. And now they expect the rest of us to bail out the Democrats not because their nominee is any good, but because Trump is bad.

And they're already trying to pass off the blame for Biden's inevitable failure onto other people. Great you have so much confidence in your nominee. No, you own that shit. You nominated him, you own it.

They picked the most conservative democrat to ever be in the Senate. Funny how that works.

[Beefhammer]

So, Democrats made another horrible nomination choice. Somehow even worse than Clinton. And now they expect the rest of us to bail out the Democrats not because their nominee is any good, but because Trump is bad.

And they're already trying to pass off the blame for Biden's inevitable failure onto other people. Great you have so much confidence in your nominee. No, you own that shit. You nominated him, you own it.

Biden has more favorables than Clinton had. From an electability standpoint he is far batter than HRC. Not to mention the blatant misogyny of Americans.

[Spectral]

They picked the most conservative democrat to ever be in the Senate. Funny how that works.

DW-NOMINATE, which has the nice benefit of being objective rather than rant based, has Biden's last Senate terms as sitting squarely in the median of the party when graphed. If the "most conservative" candidate is actually just right in the center of a party, everyone should be entirely unsurprised that he won over a bunch of fringe candidates.

Of course, if you're part of a whacky fringe, someone that's in the center of a party isn't going to be appealing, but no one much cares what fringe people think.

[Machismo]

They picked the most conservative democrat to ever be in the Senate. Funny how that works.

I'm going to need some sort of evidence on that one. Considering that Democrats used to be the conservative party in the United States, I'm calling bullshit.

[Spectral]

Biden has more favorables than Clinton had. From an electability standpoint he is far batter than HRC. Not to mention the blatant misogyny of Americans.

Biden has high favorability ratings with Democrats, but 34-41 favorable-unfavorable with independents (Yougov link). Only 13% of independents say they have a very favorable view of Biden.

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I'm going to need some sort of evidence on that one. Considering that Democrats used to be the conservative party in the United States, I'm calling bullshit.

I'm pretty sure it was just an inarticulate way of claiming that the Democrats picked the most conservative candidate from their current crop among those who had been in the Senate. Seems like a pretty stupid thing for someone to whine about, but what are ya gonna do?

[Beefhammer]

Biden has high favorability ratings with Democrats, but 34-41 favorable-unfavorable with independents (Yougov link). Only 13% of independents say they have a very favorable view of Biden.

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I'm pretty sure it was just an inarticulate way of claiming that the Democrats picked the most conservative candidate from their current crop among those who had been in the Senate. Seems like a pretty stupid thing for someone to whine about, but what are ya gonna do?

He's still more favorable than she was. Don't ignore mysogony, and moderate Rs pissed at Trump that were not going to vote for HRC. He's also polling better in BG states than Trump at higher margins that HRC.

[Machismo]

Biden has high favorability ratings with Democrats, but 34-41 favorable-unfavorable with independents (Yougov link). Only 13% of independents say they have a very favorable view of Biden.

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I'm pretty sure it was just an inarticulate way of claiming that the Democrats picked the most conservative candidate from their current crop among those who had been in the Senate. Seems like a pretty stupid thing for someone to whine about, but what are ya gonna do?

Biden isn't even really that conservative at all. Of course, coming from an actual communist, everything is a conservative.

[Spectral]

He's still more favorable than she was. Don't ignore mysogony, and moderate Rs pissed at Trump that were not going to vote for HRC. He's also polling better in BG states than Trump at higher margins that HRC.

Looks like you're correct, she was at 27% among independents with 57% expressing a strongly unfavorable view. That's amazing that someone so disliked was nominated in the first place, just a real blind spot I suppose.

Polling in early April isn't super meaningful - I'd strongly suggest sticking with a prior of a coinflip election until much better evidence emerges than we currently have. A national +6 would be a strong win, but it doesn't take much to put that at +2 and make the whole thing a coinflip on election day.

[Lenonis]

It’s also Biden supporters’ fault for discouraging Bernie supporters from voting for Biden

"I'm voting against my own interests because someone was mean to me on twitter" is not a compelling argument.

[Beefhammer]

Looks like you're correct, she was at 27% among independents with 57% expressing a strongly unfavorable view. That's amazing that someone so disliked was nominated in the first place, just a real blind spot I suppose.

Polling in early April isn't super meaningful - I'd strongly suggest sticking with a prior of a coinflip election until much better evidence emerges than we currently have. A national +6 would be a strong win, but it doesn't take much to put that at +2 and make the whole thing a coinflip on election day.

True, but she also had 20+ years of public attacks against her and she had a vagina.

[Lenonis]

maybe if you would put forward a good enough candidate you wouldn't be whining about bernie supporters not voting for him.

1) Biden isn't my candidate. 2) Biden is still the progressive choice vs Trump 3) This doesn't change that Sanders supporters who decide to sit out still own the consequences of their vote and I'm not going to let them hide behind "well you didn't do what I wanted so I shot the hostage and myself in the face so there." They got to sit there smug after 2016 and see how much damage has been done. And they apparently feel like doing it again.

it will be your camps own damn fault if you lose this election.

It will be the fault of the people who don't vote for Biden. Because that's how elections work -- votes.

almost like we've been down this road before....

Yeah, and the Sanders supports who sat out 2016 or voted for Trump didn't learn apparently.
[

[Machismo]

It’s also Biden supporters’ fault for discouraging Bernie supporters from voting for Biden

When did this happen?

[Lenonis]

Regardless of who and what no candidate owns any vote.

And you still own the consequences for that vote. Because that's how voting works.

If Biden does a right-ward turn in order to win Trump voters why should anybody vote for him?

If Biden turns into Hitler why should anyone vote for him? I mean while we're throwing out meaningless scenarios.

Biden needs to offer a clear message and vision of what he will do different if elected.

For.The.10000000th.Time. Judiciary. That alone should be enough.

Obama provided a clear vision in 2008/2012.

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Knock yourself out.

I really don't want to sound like I'm campaigning for Biden when all I want is not to see Trump get another 4 years, but c'mon...this mess of misinformation and ignorance is cured with a 2 second google search.

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No, you own that shit. You nominated him, you own it.

So do Sanders and his supporters own his loss? Or does this only work one direction because you want it to?

And, again, no matter what you say each person owns the consequences of their vote at the end of the day. They may have reasons, justification or whatnot, but that doesn't mean they don't get to avoid getting called out for causing the outcome.

[Spectral]

"I'm voting against my own interests because someone was mean to me on twitter" is not a compelling argument.

I see the phrase "against [one's] interests" in electoral contexts quite a lot. Can you define what you personally mean by it? It comes across to me as deeply condescending to tell someone what their interests are.

[Lenonis]

Biden has high favorability ratings with Democrats, but 34-41 favorable-unfavorable with independents (Yougov link). Only 13% of independents say they have a very favorable view of Biden.

I'm increasingly skeptical of people who call themselves independents because it seems to have become a group of embarrassed republicans more than anything -- along with a bunch of progressives who won't consider themselves part of the Dems.

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I see the phrase "against [one's] interests" in electoral contexts quite a lot. Can you define what you personally mean by it? It comes across to me as deeply condescending to tell someone what their interests are.

Do I really need to explain why a Trump win would be against a progressive's interests? I'm seriously not trying to be condescending but it at least to me it's so obvious why a relatively moderate Dem would be far better for a progressive movement than 4 more years of Trump.

And yet we have Sanders supporters actively rooting for Trump to win.

I'm happy to explain it if you like but I feel my posts have been pretty consistent in explaining it -- if you haven't seen them I can repeat.

[Themius]

Got some rough news for ya. If Bernie supports don't vote for Biden then guess what? It is at least partially their fault if Trump wins. Reality doesn't care if people's feelings get hurt. You own the consequences of your vote or lack thereof. Period.

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Trump is losing in every swing state right now.

But keep on smoking whatever you are smoking. This is the second post where you don't call for civil war. The healing is continuing.

Hillary cross over to McCain were the same as Bernie cross overs.

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Chris HAyes is maybe the more interesting nightly host on MSNBC. Dashing, progressive, alternates his nightly guests between Bernie and Michael Moore every other night.

Bernie Sanders is on All In just now.


Sanders argued in response that Republicans have no ideology and he wouldn't be surprised if eventually Trump called for guaranteed health care. "His goal and his only goal is to win... he will say and do anything to do that."
"You're hearing it first right here. He may not call it 'Medicare for All' [but] I would not drop dead if, in one form or another, Donald Trump got up and said, 'We're in a terrible crisis... We should guarantee health care to all people."



Wow, Bernard looks really out touch.

• Trump is actively suing to dismantle the ACA
• Trump is continually trying to deny healthcare with Work Requirements
• Just this week Trump denied opening ACA enrollment to let people get emergency coverage
• Trump is withholding medical supplies from the Supplies from the States
• Trump is suggesting people take poison

A Benard goes home to masterbate to his typical fantasy
The libs on their knees, the libs tied-up, the libs abused.

Trump literally said he would pass universal healthcare or did you forget? Bernie is saying he will say anything to win.

[Spectral]

Do I really need to explain why a Trump win would be against a progressive's interests? I'm seriously not trying to be condescending but it at least to me it's so obvious why a relatively moderate Dem would be far better for a progressive movement than 4 more years of Trump.

And yet we have Sanders supporters actively rooting for Trump to win.

I'm happy to explain it if you like but I feel my posts have been pretty consistent in explaining it -- if you haven't seen them I can repeat.

I think you're failing to evaluate what their interests, possibly because you're not listening to them - they don't place much value on the things a moderate Democrat would bring for them. When they tell you, explicitly, that it's more important to them to be clear about their rejection of the current liberal order than to get a President that's more liberal than Trump, just believe them. That's their interest - you can tell that it's their interest because they tell you so and then go and act accordingly.

[Lenonis]

Hillary cross over to McCain were the same as Bernie cross overs.

You are deeply mistaken if you think I'm willing to give anyone a pass on cross over voting regardless of the candidates. They get the same blame from me as anyone else. It's short sighted and voting against your own interests.

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I think you're failing to evaluate what their interests, possibly because you're not listening to them - they don't place much value on the things a moderate Democrat would bring for them.

They tell me they want M4A. Student loan forgiveness. Etc. All of these will be set back decades under Trump. At worst under Biden they will stall. They may even incrementally move forward under Biden. Trump's fingerprint on the judiciary will destroy the progressive agenda for decades.

When they tell you, explicitly, that it's more important to them to be clear about their rejection of the current liberal order than to get a President that's more liberal than Trump, just believe them.

I believe they feel that way. I also believe that's irrational and self-harming in the long run.

That's their interest - you can tell that it's their interest because they tell you so and then go and act accordingly.

People can feel free to believe what they want. Trump supporters believe he's an honest and godly man. I am also free to believe what I believe and my stance has been pretty clear. People own the consequences of their vote. The judiciary is likely the #1 issue this election. 4 more years of Trump would harm the progressive agenda.

I get the frustration. But the progressive wing of the party need to realize that for whatever reason although they win popularity on single topics the movement as a whole just isn't getting over the finish line. My personal politics are a little all over the place but I do want to see the progressive agenda move forward. Warren was my choice this primary cycle so it's not like i'm a die hard moderate. But I deeply reject this "burn it all down until we get what we want" attitude some have because it's deeply harmful to many people including minorities, the middle class, and our relationships with other countries.

Plus I recognize this is MMOC -- the land where no one's opinion will change and my being a brash argumentative person isn't going to impact anyone. I would never be this hard with someone in RL where I could have an impact. I'd be much more nuanced.

[Adam Jensen]

For.The.10000000th.Time. Judiciary. That alone should be enough.

I don't know man.

I voted for Clinton because of the judiciary, when I was thinking about writing in Sanders. If Clinton won, I reasoned, Merrick Garland would be on the bench, keeping SCOTUS from going hard right.

Then Clinton lost and we got Boofing Brett.

Here I am four years later with the same exact conundrum. If Biden wins, then whoever replaces RBG will probably be someone reasonable (maybe Merrick Garland again.) That keeps a hard right SCOTUS from going even further to the right.

Then Biden loses and we get . . . someone incredibly stupid and unqualified. Maybe Judge Jeanine, who the fuck knows with Donald Trump.

And that doesn't even touch the damage Trump has done to the lower courts.

[Machismo]

Trump is getting re-elected so people should stop crying.

Dementia Biden threatens to cut social security and is the biggest warmonger in history, he bombed Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Lebanon etc.

Why do you like racists like Trump so much?