Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Powerogue]

I miss Varimathas, true leader of the Forsaken.

He was the leader for all of 20 minutes.

Which I still want re-implemented back into the game, dangit, that was a good scenario. They referenced it in BFA, and players who didn't experience it must've been confused.

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Judging by the fact they made a whole new edgy and evil model for her, I doubt she'll be redeemed.

Sylvanas fanboys always believed she would never die because of her popularity. But that was always a weak argument. Popularity didn't stop Blizz from killing Arthas (most popular character in Warcraft franchise) in the second expansion.

At this point there is really no indication that there will be a final twist at the end and Sylvanas somehow rejoins the forces of Azeroth.

My money is on either permadeath or ironic punishment of her soul, with Horde and Alliance forces lead by either the forsaken or night elves depending on faction being present for the raid encounter. At which point they take her corpse and either drain that banshee blood to go sign that peace treaty or eat her brains.

The two factions have both been given reasons to want her dead, and I expect it to be the factions that get to canonically finish her off. That's just straightforward storytelling, like Velen and Illidan being present when we defeated Kil'jaeden.

[Mace]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

You're right she is not a villain, and it is intended to make you think she might be.. Blizzard are being "clever" they think with her, because she's a fave.

What people view as character assassination is Character evolution, but they have every right not to like it. It is what it is at the end of the day.

[omeomorfismo]

The writers are deliberately making Sylvanas a villain and Sylvanas loyalists are still ignoring that, saying the writers are wrong?
Who is right then? The writers of your fan fictions?
That's a really twisted definition of "Lore"

Also, even if, by any chance, Blizzard decided to redeem Sylvanas as a character with some ultimate goal that saves Azeroth and the universe let me tell you:
That will be the worst plot twist in the history of plot twists, the writing must be so bad and low level fan fiction tier to do that, that the Warcraft Lore, or what is left of it at this point, dies immediately a quick and painless death.
At least you fan fiction loving Sylvanas fanbois would be happy.

why some people have that strange idea that "sylvanas fanbois" should be happy with her redemption? if someone love to play amoral races like the forsaken, the last thing that they want see is becoming the shitty good hero n. 654656.

Judging by the fact they made a whole new edgy and evil model for her, I doubt she'll be redeemed.

Sylvanas fanboys always believed she would never die because of her popularity. But that was always a weak argument. Popularity didn't stop Blizz from killing Arthas (most popular character in Warcraft franchise) in the second expansion.

At this point there is really no indication that there will be a final twist at the end and Sylvanas somehow rejoins the forces of Azeroth.

rotfl, can you ever find someone that isnt dartz to ever write some bullshit like this? that was always an argument for her suppoused "plot shield" used by sylvanas haters

[matrix123mko]

The Forsaken, duh !

With angry Night Elves being presented as not only savages, primitives but also unjust for airing grievances at her and the Horde.

As always. Forsaken are the victims while night elves are xenophobic primitives that attack orcs for no reason.

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imagine pixel boobs causing you to be a revisionist and claiming sylvanas made suddenly a villain

Pixel boobs are a horrible buzzword. Isn't it what the night elves have too?

[Enosh]

Sylvanas didn't do anything the rest of the horde wouldn't do, as evidenced by the small amount of support Saurfangs rebellion had
it's only when she for no reason at all went "fuck the horde" that they turned on her

[Aucald]

why some people have that strange idea that "sylvanas fanbois" should be happy with her redemption? if someone love to play amoral races like the forsaken, the last thing that they want see is becoming the shitty good hero n. 654656.

That's the thing I don't understand when it comes to the cases where I guess "Sylvanas apologism" is the best term to employ - it's fine to enjoy playing amoral or even evil races in a fantasy RPG, or enjoying amoral or evil characters in a fictional narrative. That's part of what fiction is for, in my view. But it's deeply strange to simultaneously try to explain away or otherwise mitigate said amorality or evilness with strange logic or outright fabrication. If a character is evil, and you celebrate in said fictional evilness, then by all means do so - there's no reason to try to justify it with double-talk.

Not saying you have or are indulging in this either, just something I've noticed from people who claim to enjoy amoral/evil characters but then can't seem to accept when other people call out those characters as evil. And I think Sylvanas is evil - she started that way in WC3, and she's only continued down the arc of descent from that point. Now that's not to say I agree with everything that's been done to Sylvanas' character from an external standpoint, either; but I don't think any of it has changed that initial understanding that she is indeed evil. You need only to look at how she disposes of Garithos (who I have no sympathy for either) to see where her moral compass is grounded, without a second thought, as if he were only an afterthought to her (which, to be honest, I'm sure he was). Even Varimathras, himself a literal demon in the active service of universal omnicide, makes an easy comparison between Sylvanas and himself. From my perspective, you kind of had to know who the newly-undead Sylvanas was right there, all the way back in 2003.

[shadowmatrix]

I don't hate Sylvanas, personally speaking - I think she's a fine character, although I don't like her on a personal level (I find her personality and actions odious in the extreme). I do however think she's been in the spotlight way too long, looming large in what will be 3 back-to-back expansions now. It's time for her to take her final bow and exit the stage, in whatever form that happens to take.

3? BFA was the first time she was a major focus. In legion she was a background villain for the Alliance and in WOD she was what exactly. We have no idea how much she will be shown in Shadowlands so its too early to say how we feel about that story.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas being overexposed is a meme and largely the product of her being the only active agent in a plot where everyone else would just as well sit around fondling themselves if left to their own devices. Before Legion, where she shows up in one section of one zone and then vanishes for the rest of the expansion, she'd appeared once in Mists and zero times in Warlords. In BFA, her screentime is easily less than Saurfang and Jaina's. She is however the main object of most conversation because of the aforementioned lack of conflict from anyone else.

[Aucald]

3? BFA was the first time she was a major focus. In legion she was a background villain for the Alliance and in WOD she was what exactly. We have no idea how much she will be shown in Shadowlands so its too early to say how we feel about that story.

She was directly involved in the Battle of the Broken Shore as an important element, in the Horde succession crisis in Legion, and became the Warchief of the Horde. She was involved in very important questing in Stormheim, part of the ongoing narrative that leads directly into the Blood War later on. Ditto for BfA, where's been a nigh constant presence in the narrative. And now come Shadowlands she takes the role of a major antagonist and the apparent dragon to the Jailer/Zovaal.

[DemonHunter18]

She was directly involved in the Battle of the Broken Shore as an important element, in the Horde succession crisis in Legion, and became the Warchief of the Horde. She was involved in very important questing in Stormheim, part of the ongoing narrative that leads directly into the Blood War later on. Ditto for BfA, where's been a nigh constant presence in the narrative. And now come Shadowlands she takes the role of a major antagonist and the apparent dragon to the Jailer/Zovaal.

don't forget about those lame books and that comic.

[Super Dickmann]

She was directly involved in the Horde succession crisis in Legion, and became the Warchief of the Horde. She was involved in very important questing in Stormheim, part of the ongoing narrative that leads directly into the Blood War later on. Ditto for BfA, where's been a nigh constant presence in the narrative. And now come Shadowlands she takes the role of a major antagonist and the apparent dragon to the Jailer/Zovaal.

She appears in a side-story in Legion and her being Warchief has no bearing on anything until BFA. Stormheim isn't important to anything - it never comes up again, in fact, except in a throwaway line she gives to Saurfang and another handwave by Anduin. It's just that much more interesting due to the Genn vs Sylvanas stuff going on than the actual main plot that it consumed discussion. She has fewer appearances than Dargrul and has less bearing on Legion's plot than him and I bet you most people who read this post completely forgot he existed until they saw the mention.

[Aucald]

She appears in a side-story in Legion and her being Warchief has no bearing on anything until BFA. Stormheim isn't important to anything - it never comes up again, in fact, except in a throwaway line she gives to Saurfang and another handwave by Anduin. It's just that much more interesting due to the Genn vs Sylvanas stuff going on than the actual main plot that it consumed discussion. She has fewer appearances than Dargrul and has less bearing on Legion's plot than him and I bet you most people who read this post completely forgot he existed until they saw the mention.

I would say becoming the Warchief, or the High King, of a given faction is a pretty massive development for any character. Stormheim is quite important, too; especially to the level it still gets discussed even today in terms of how it played into the Horde/Alliance conflict that became the showpiece of BfA. I'm not saying that Sylvanas' role in Legion is as large as it was in BfA or likely will be in Shadowlands, but she still took a central placement in the ongoing narrative by dint of becoming the Horde's Warchief, and her actions in Legion shaped the narrative-arc of WoW across the next few expansions more than any other character in Legion.

And I remember who Dargrul was.

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don't forget about those lame books and that comic.

I consider those as part of the BfA story-arc, beginning with "Before the Storm." Though she does figure importantly in "Nathanos - Dark Mirror," which is set in Legion.

[DemonHunter18]

I consider those as part of the BfA story-arc, beginning with "Before the Storm." Though she does figure importantly in "Nathanos - Dark Mirror," which is set in Legion.

you could say it's a bridge between Legion and BfA and between BfA and SL (upcoming book).

[Super Dickmann]

I would say becoming the Warchief, or the High King, of a given faction is a pretty massive development for any character. Stormheim is quite important, too; especially to the level it still gets discussed even today in terms of how it played into the Horde/Alliance conflict that became the showpiece of BfA. I'm not saying that Sylvanas' role in Legion is as large as it was in BfA or likely will be in Shadowlands, but she still took a central placement in the ongoing narrative by dint of becoming the Horde's Warchief, and her actions in Legion shaped the narrative-arc of WoW across the next few expansions more than any other character in Legion./

It's a sizable development, no doubt about that, but it doesn't translate to screen time. Sylvanas appears in one section of one zone, for about 10 odd quests. For the entire rest of Legion she does not appear. The claim of overexposure is bunk. It's discussed now because it's interesting, not because of its particular weight - the narrative itself brings it up extremely rarely. Indeed, it actively avoids it. It's important to the fandom because it's an ambiguous situation that can be argued over compared to a character with more exposure like Dargrul who, while in all honesty a better antagonist than BFA Sylvanas, has very little to talk about.

The overexposure of Sylvanas is fan-created. She is massively divisive and so an object of discussion, even when she isn't on screen. She appears for like a minute in 8.0 and 8.1 combined and yet most discussion was about her anyway.

[Aucald]

you could say it's a bridge between Legion and BfA and between BfA and SL (upcoming book).

It is, yes. But like "The Shattering" before it I would say it more or less frames and sets up the BfA story, just like "The Shattering" did for Cata. "Shadows Rising" will do the same for Shadowlands, and thus belongs to Shadowlands' narrative arc.

That's just how I think of it, of course, so YMMV.

[DemonHunter18]

It is, yes. But like "The Shattering" before it I would say it more or less frames and sets up the BfA story, just like "The Shattering" did for Cata. "Shadows Rising" will do the same for Shadowlands, and thus belongs to Shadowlands' narrative arc.

That's just how I think of it, of course, so YMMV.

fair enough.

[Aucald]

It's a sizable development, no doubt about that, but it doesn't translate to screen time. Sylvanas appears in one section of one zone, for about 10 odd quests. For the entire rest of Legion she does not appear. The claim of overexposure is bunk. It's discussed now because it's interesting, not because of its particular weight - the narrative itself brings it up extremely rarely. Indeed, it actively avoids it. It's important to the fandom because it's an ambiguous situation that can be argued over compared to a character with more exposure like Dargrul who, while in all honesty a better antagonist than BFA Sylvanas, has very little to talk about.

Screen time is seldom the sole arbiter of how important a character is to the narrative, and what constitutes their time "in the spotlight" so to speak. Kind of like Thrall in Cata - he looms absolutely large in the story-arc as the World Shaman, but his screen time isn't actually that great (appearing in a handful of quests, one dungeon, and one raid). Similarly, Sylvanas has a key role in Legion's lead-in scenario (Battle of the Broken Shore), is deeply involved in the Horde's succession crisis concerning the dying Vol'jin, becomes Warchief, conducts Vol'jin's funeral, and is personally involved in several quests in Stormheim leading up to a culminating event that sets the stage for WoW's future. No matter how you dice it, that's a lot of exposure in terms of the narrative, to the point of super-importance in the forward movement of the story. She doesn't have to chew the scenery to be important after all - though many characters in WoW have done that, like Garrosh.

[DemonHunter18]

yep, it's definitely not about screen time.

it's more about the impact rather than screen time.

[Super Dickmann]

Screen time is seldom the sole arbiter of how important a character is to the narrative, and what constitutes their time "in the spotlight" so to speak. Kind of like Thrall in Cata - he looms absolutely large in the story-arc as the World Shaman, but his screen time isn't actually that great (appearing in a handful of quests, one dungeon, and one raid). Similarly, Sylvanas has a key role in Legion's lead-in scenario (Battle of the Broken Shore), is deeply involved in the Horde's succession crisis concerning the dying Vol'jin, becomes Warchief, conducts Vol'jin's funeral, and is personally involved in several quests in Stormheim leading up to a culminating event that sets the stage for WoW's future. No matter how you dice it, that's a lot of exposure in terms of the narrative, to the point of super-importance in the forward movement of the story. She doesn't have to chew the scenery to be important after all - though many characters in WoW have done that, like Garrosh.

There is no Horde succession crisis. It's one cinematic. Vol'jin is dying, he calls people up and goes "This bint is Warchief". We don't even see anyone go "Hrm, is this shifty?" Presumably because when it was written it wasn't meant to be shifty given the soaring score, but never you mind that. Ditto the bit with the funeral. Her actions in Stormheim are so important to WoW's future that no one says the word Stormheim in the entirety of BFA, be it as a show of Sylvanas being worth fighting and how enslaving Val'kyr is bad or as a motivation for declaring war given it was a hit on a world leader. This comes exclusively from the fandom. We chat about Stormheim endlessly, the story doesn't - the story in Legion would be unchanged if that entire bit didn't happen.

@DemonHunter18

Exposure is a matter of screentime. Impact, as said, would obviously be high given that she's one of the few moving pieces in the plot. Indeed, she's the only such piece in all of BFA. No Sylvanas means none of the plot happens.

[omeomorfismo]

That's the thing I don't understand when it comes to the cases where I guess "Sylvanas apologism" is the best term to employ - it's fine to enjoy playing amoral or even evil races in a fantasy RPG, or enjoying amoral or evil characters in a fictional narrative. That's part of what fiction is for, in my view. But it's deeply strange to simultaneously try to explain away or otherwise mitigate said amorality or evilness with strange logic or outright fabrication. If a character is evil, and you celebrate in said fictional evilness, then by all means do so - there's no reason to try to justify it with double-talk.

Not saying you have or are indulging in this either, just something I've noticed from people who claim to enjoy amoral/evil characters but then can't seem to accept when other people call out those characters as evil. And I think Sylvanas is evil - she started that way in WC3, and she's only continued down the arc of descent from that point. Now that's not to say I agree with everything that's been done to Sylvanas' character from an external standpoint, either; but I don't think any of it has changed that initial understanding that she is indeed evil. You need only to look at how she disposes of Garithos (who I have no sympathy for either) to see where her moral compass is grounded, without a second thought, as if he were only an afterthought to her (which, to be honest, I'm sure he was). Even Varimathras, himself a literal demon in the active service of universal omnicide, makes an easy comparison between Sylvanas and himself. From my perspective, you kind of had to know who the newly-undead Sylvanas was right there, all the way back in 2003.

because evil is a shitty and ambiguos term. you can take infinite definitions for it, like the d&d one where forsaken are definitely evil even only because they are undead, the manichaean one with "the god/light/elements/nature said so", the tribalistic where evil=enemy (but basically making void as a term), the gameplay/plot one where basically evil=villain (and in a game where being a rog/warlock/dk/undead is sistematically ignored its a dangerous equation), or whatever. then we slaughter ourself each one with their definition in these forums.
for example i dont feel to be evil, im playing a race that mostly feel rage and hate even inherently cannibal, basically an amoral and sociopathic being (until the appears of bts sadsacks). i cant be evil if i cant even understand the difference of good and evil. i can be accepted to be viewed as a moster by an human, because basically im eating, reproducing, harvesting and experimenting on them. but thats mostly because i view moral like a tribalistic vestiges and prefer to rp in role (so im judging them as a forsaken instead as the real omeomorfismo).
its wrong to murder a weak shitty douchebag that lived is usefullness? no, garithos would be dead anyway if sylvanas didnt freed him and without lying he would be even a liability.