Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[God Save The King]

I think people underestimate the fact that it wasn't Hillary's policies or moderatism or even her corporatism that people didn't vote for. They didn't vote for her, as a person. And that has a lot of factors, probably the biggest being that for 30 years the GOP had so much steam blowing from their ears over made up scandals that the steam appeared like smoke, indicating some sort of fire that was never really there.

Biden is actually liked by Middle America. And has been, for a long time.

I'm aware they didn't like her personally. I find Biden even more repulsive as a person, but perhaps that is limited to me. Though from what I see across this and other forums, it seems that people don't like him either. American politics usually boil down to little more than a popularity contest among swing voters. I don't see Biden having the appeal that Clinton lacked.

[Telogrus]

Except we would vote for Bernie......had he won the Democratic nomination. At least on this forum.

The primary is time to choose between Democratic candidates by making small differentiations between them. Once the general comes around, it's time to vote for the Dem because the alternative is that much worse. Biden is nowhere near my top choice for a candidate. But because I'm able to compromise and generally function as an adult, I'm still voting for him come November, because he's light years better than Trump. And anyone who suggests they aren't, are being disingenuous as fuck.

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Try this argument anywhere else in the world. It's your duty as a citizen to vote, if not your obligation. You are shirking that duty.

If Dems can argue that you shouldn’t vote for Bernie in the primary because of his mean supporters, then we can argue that you shouldn’t vote for Biden in the general because of his mean supporters

[Adam Jensen]

I'm aware they didn't like her personally. I find Biden even more repulsive as a person, but perhaps that is limited to me. Though from what I see across this and other forums, it seems that people don't like him either. American politics usually boil down to little more than a popularity contest among swing voters. I don't see Biden having the appeal that Clinton lacked.

I do agree that Biden lacks in appeal, I don't think he has as much baggage as Clinton. There weren't decades worth of smears and investigations against him.

At worse they have pictures of Biden being a bit uncomfortably close with young girls and the whole Tara Reade situation, which looks pretty questionable. And a Trumpster accusing Biden of sexual misconduct has no room to talk.

[Lenonis]

You nominate a bad candidate that loses you don't get to pass the blame on to others. And you all know he's a bad candidate, that's why you're already trying to pass the blame on to others.

Even if he's a bad candidate he's the progressive choice vs Trump. If you sit it out that's on you. You don't get to say "I don't own any of this because the candidate sucked." You get to say "I own this but did so because the candidate sucked." And then when your agenda is shredded for decades because Trump skewed the judiciary for decades and you complain about how little is getting done I get to point to your responsibility for that happening.

That's how elections work.

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Despite my preference, I view this as handing Trump another 4 years in the White House. Hopefully I'm wrong come November, but I can't really see him getting voted out of office. Of all the Democratic hopefuls, Biden was easily the least suited to face Trump in the general election. People didn't want Hillary, they won't want an older, crazier Hillary.

There really isn't anything factual to back that up. Biden is popular with the segment of the populace that shows up to vote. He gets to be associated with Obama who is wildly popular in the Democratic party. He's beating Trump in every swing state right now.

I get the pessimism but there isn't anything to justify it other than the trauma of 2016...and it's not 2016 anymore. Hillary isn't running. Trump isn't some unknown outsider. And the economy is trashed which was the one thing everyone cited for why they were supporting him.

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Enjoy 4 more years of Trump.

Enjoy setting back your policy goals decades. Hope the smug satisfaction keeps you comfortable as you watch the world burn.

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If Dems can argue that you shouldn’t vote for Bernie in the primary because of his mean supporters, then we can argue that you shouldn’t vote for Biden in the general because of his mean supporters

Yeah, that's not how that works. Because in the primary your choices are between different flavors of Democratic candidates. In the general you have two wildly different options.

Primaries and general elections aren't the same.

[Telogrus]

Even if he's a bad candidate he's the progressive choice vs Trump. If you sit it out that's on you. You don't get to say "I don't own any of this because the candidate sucked." You get to say "I own this but did so because the candidate sucked." And then when your agenda is shredded for decades because Trump skewed the judiciary for decades and you complain about how little is getting done I get to point to your responsibility for that happening.

That's how elections work.

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There really isn't anything factual to back that up. Biden is popular with the segment of the populace that shows up to vote. He gets to be associated with Obama who is wildly popular in the Democratic party. He's beating Trump in every swing state right now.

I get the pessimism but there isn't anything to justify it other than the trauma of 2016...and it's not 2016 anymore. Hillary isn't running. Trump isn't some unknown outsider. And the economy is trashed which was the one thing everyone cited for why they were supporting him.

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Enjoy setting back your policy goals decades. Hope the smug satisfaction keeps you comfortable as you watch the world burn.

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Yeah, that's not how that works. Because in the primary your choices are between different flavors of Democratic candidates. In the general you have two wildly different options.

Primaries and general elections aren't the same.

So we can’t call out blatant hypocrisy?

[nonameelf]

Even if he's a bad candidate he's the progressive choice vs Trump. If you sit it out that's on you. You don't get to say "I don't own any of this because the candidate sucked." You get to say "I own this but did so because the candidate sucked." And then when your agenda is shredded for decades because Trump skewed the judiciary for decades and you complain about how little is getting done I get to point to your responsibility for that happening.

That's how elections work.

"Vote for my human piece of shit who's opposed to the policies you want or the other human piece of shit who's opposed to the policies you want will win again."

Maybe don't nominate human pieces of shit then? Is it that fucking hard?

[Lenonis]

So we can’t call out blatant hypocrisy?

Never said that. The trouble is that just because someone is being a hypocrite doesn't also mean they are wrong.

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"Vote for my human piece of shit who's opposed to the policies you want or the other human piece of shit who's opposed to the policies you want will win again."

Maybe don't nominate human pieces of shit then? Is it that fucking hard?

Maybe don't both sides me when they aren't the same? Is it that fucking hard?

[nonameelf]

Maybe don't both sides me when they aren't the same? Is it that fucking hard?

They both seem unable to keep their hands to themselves.

[Themius]

Never said that. The trouble is that just because someone is being a hypocrite doesn't also mean they are wrong.

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Maybe don't both sides me when they aren't the same? Is it that fucking hard?

I'm a Bernie supporter, but I hope Biden wins because... I'm not an idiot. I don't understand these people who hate Biden so much. Like why??? Compared to fucking Trump how in the world can you dislike Biden that much?

Also these people seem to be forgetting ALL THE DOWN BALLOT VOTES which are far more important when it comes to taking back the country. A general election is more than just for president...

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They both seem unable to keep their hands to themselves.

You mean Tara? The woman with a sketchy past far right conservative Putin loving woman? Applauding Biden for his actions taken against abuse women? That woman?

[Lenonis]

They both seem unable to keep their hands to themselves.

Bold move responding to a "don't both sides me" post with a both sides post.

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I don't understand these people who hate Biden so much.

Honestly I don't even care if people hate Biden. It's the whole "he's the same as Trump" I can't stand because literally 2 seconds of thought will show hundreds of reasons why they aren't.

[Theodarzna]

I agree with you 100% breadisfunny. Dementia Joe is not entitled to my vote...and I couldn't give 2 shit what anyone thinks. I don't owe the DNC anything. Not voting blue no matter who.

Enjoy 4 more years of Trump.

If we run with the logic that not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump than Hillary lost the popular vote by a gigantic margin in 2016. You cannot both adopt the logic that rejecting Biden is a vote for Trump AND that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote.

It just doesn't work.

[Lenonis]

If we run with the logic that not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump than Hillary lost the popular vote by a gigantic margin in 2016. You cannot both adopt the logic that rejecting Biden is a vote for Trump AND that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote.

It just doesn't work.

Hillary won more votes than Trump. That's how "winning the popular vote" is defined. Don't pull a muscle with that stretch.

[Theodarzna]

Hillary won more votes than Trump. That's how "winning the popular vote" is defined. Don't pull a muscle with that stretch.

Your failure to read is truly amazing, but not surprising.

The key is, if you adopt the logic of "Not voting for Biden is voting for Trump", well in 2016 most people didn't vote for Hillary. By that crude logic, most people voted for Trump under that logic of "Not voting for my guy is a vote for the other guy" thinking.

[Lenonis]

Your failure to read is truly amazing, but not surprising.

The key is, if you adopt the logic of "Not voting for Biden is voting for Trump", well in 2016 most people didn't vote for Hillary. By that crude logic, most people voted for Trump under that logic of "Not voting for my guy is a vote for the other guy" thinking.

And even more people didn't vote for Trump which would be a vote for Hillary which still puts her in the "winning the vote". C'mon...this is dumb even for you.

[Theodarzna]

And even more people didn't vote for Trump which would be a vote for Hillary which still puts her in the "winning the vote". C'mon...this is dumb even for you.

Which would also undermine the "Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump", I am glad you agree that not voting for Biden is not actually a vote for Trump.

[Lenonis]

Which would also undermine the "Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump", I am glad you agree that not voting for Biden is not actually a vote for Trump.

God this is painful. Once more for the kids in the back.

If you are normally a D voter and you sit it out, it's a vote for R.

And yes, the opposite goes. All the never trumpers who sat out who were previously reliable R voters were votes for Hillary.

[Theodarzna]

God this is painful. Once more for the kids in the back.

If you are normally a D voter and you sit it out, it's a vote for R.

And yes, the opposite goes. All the never trumpers who sat out who were previously reliable R voters were votes for Hillary.

Ah, what is a "normally D voter"? That is such a vague ill defined category, it in theory could mean anything and anyone.

And it comes back to an entitlement, as if any voter has some obligation towards a political party. Which in the United States is even LESS true than in other countries.

[Gestopft]

Despite my preference, I view this as handing Trump another 4 years in the White House. Hopefully I'm wrong come November, but I can't really see him getting voted out of office. Of all the Democratic hopefuls, Biden was easily the least suited to face Trump in the general election. People didn't want Hillary, they won't want an older, crazier Hillary.

I've been very much in the "hopefully I'm wrong" camp with Biden. I was arguing before he even entered the race that he was a weak candidate in the general election, and so I'm quite terrified that there isn't enough enthusiasm to put him over. On the other hand, I've also been saying for quite a while that Trump will be without his two biggest advantages this time around: being able to run as an 'outsider' and having HRC as an opponent.

[Lenonis]

Ah, what is a "normally D voter"? That is such a vague ill defined category, it in theory could mean anything and anyone.

Someone who reliably votes democratic in the past. Campaigns rely on voter trends and such to determine strategies...it's an important piece of data. They have ways to define a "reliably D voter" but I don't know the criteria. Not a poly sci major.

And it comes back to an entitlement, as if any voter has some obligation towards a political party. Which in the United States is even LESS true than in other countries.

It's not about entitlement it's about consequences.

[Benggaul]

Hah, well, I see this thread is going to essentially be another shitshow just like the Primary thread was, so I'll just say my piece and bow out of this one as well. Life's too short to lose my vision early due to all the eye-rolling.

I say this as someone who supported Warren until she dropped out and then supported Bernie until he gave the nom to Biden:
If you supported Bernie in the primaries, but aren't going to support Biden for the removal of Trump, then you aren't really a Bernie supporter.

Certainly not his policies. Trump is the antithesis to Bernie, so not doing anything you can to get him out of office already speaks towards your unwillingness to help build towards the things Bernie espouses. "But Biden is just like Trump" is a bullshit argument and you know it. For one, Biden is on record as having said he'd sign M4A if it crossed his desk. Think Trump will? No, of course you fucking don't. But "wah, my favorite person lost so fuck principles", right?

Biden isn't going to stand in the way of a progressive agenda, roll back regulations, install his own yes-men into every tier of government and ensure that the US has no allies whatsoever in the uncertain times ahead. At worst, Biden is going to be the boring figurehead in a 4-year stalling measure during which the US tries to get its collective shit back together, sweep out fuckers like Barr from their positions and maybe--unless the Senate GOP stall things AGAIN--give RBG her much-deserved retirement before the GOP has the ability to stack the court even further in their favor, endangering things like your autonomy over your own body.

Further, the Democrats, while absolutely far from fucking perfect, have a MUCH better track record of holding their own responsible for their actions. Take a look at Franken, who was a decent enough Senator but had a few sexual harassment accusations leveled against him. He admitted his fault, apologized and resigned (the latter in no small part due to pressure from his own party) something you NEVER hear about on the GOP side of things. The GOP circle up the wagons and defend, deflect, deny and discredit whenever one of their own is accused of any wrongdoing. It's the number one reason Trump gets away with eroding the rule of law.

Trump is responsible for a lot of people losing health care, losing their jobs, losing their homes and losing their lives through his own ignorance and desire for wealth and fame. He has or has tried to roll back protections for the environment, protections on insurance, job security and has funnelled everything he can into his or his family's pockets--or towards his vanity wall. Maybe you're okay with MORE people becoming homeless, sick or dying because you have "muh principles", but once again, if you're fine with that choice then you aren't a supporter of Bernie's policies.

Bernie will be voting for Biden, because at least with Biden things can be set back in the right direction. There is no such path under Trump. Period. If you're going to sit at home come November and Trump wins, then you forever lose any cachet you have in arguing for your agenda, because you were just fine with letting people suffer--something Bernie never, ever wanted. And good luck getting any progressive policies passed 5 years from now if Trump is given that time to continue tearing down the foundations of the government. You want progress? You want M4A, free college, UBI, etc. etc? You will NEVER see it in your lifetime if the GOP are allowed to continue their free reign over the destruction of American government. There's no guarantee you'll see those things under Democratic leadership either, but there's one hell of a better chance of achieving progress towards it when everything isn't on fire.

See you in November, folks.