Things I don't like about SL

[Laysson]

To be honest, and even if I'm an anonymous player, I'm hyped by the announcements, and I'm generally happy with the content. I played 4 of the xpacs (wrath, cata, mop and bfa) the last thing I really disliked was mop dailies. As for bfa, I globally like it, even if it's not alt friendly (although I don't like to play alts, I wanted an alchemist so I used a boost to get a 120 monk, and he'll, it's a pain).

We are all hyped and I like most of the changes too, but I feel that we are going to fall into the same grind trap.

[Nerovar]

Agreed on the "no big class changes" part. Many classes are in dire need of major reworks because they're so conceptually flawed that it's almost impossible to have a satisfying experience on them (especially when you always have in mind that they were more fun a few expansions ago).

Apart from that, there are two things that bother me. The first thing is the fact that they haven't removed the GCD from many mobility abilities (like Deathgrip) and offensive CDs that don't have damage baked into them (like e.g. Breath of Sindragosa vs Pillar of Frost and Horn of Winter) despite the fact that it's one of the few things people seem to agree on unanimously.
The second thing is how they've handled the unpruning (at least on the specs that I play). It seems like they went with the lazy route and just threw a few old abilities into the mix without looking at how they interact with the rest of the classes toolkit. Good examples are Corruption for Warlocks (which seems completely useless for Destru in its current form) and Death Coil for Death Knights. The implementation of Death Coil in its current form basically ignores 2 expansions worth of class changes. Don't get me wrong. It absolutely was a useful ability for Frost DKs up until WoD since it gave you enormous burst self-heal during Lichborne but ever since they've changed Death Strike to consume Runic Power instead of Runes, there's simply no reason as to why you would prefer using Lichborne over Death Strike (when in the past you would be using both). Meanwhile all the interesting pruned mechanics and abilities remain pruned. Dark Simulacrum is still a PvP talent that competes with much better options and therefor will very rarely see any usage, presences and different runes remain a thing of the past same as Icy Touch with its old purge functionality or the old Soul Reaper execute.

It's really weird to me how they can very accurately articulate what was wrong with the class philosophy of BfA and Legion but show very little when it comes to addressing these issues even though they acknowledge their existence.

[Sangfoudre]

We are all hyped and I like most of the changes too, but I feel that we are going to fall into the same grind trap.

Tbh, I'm happy with a bit of grind, commitment and work make feel I deserve the reward. I don't do alts that much so I unlock things just once.

[Wingspan]

Why do you give the singlest fuck about "borrowed abilities".
"Gear" is borrowed.
"Talents" change every few patches, they're borrowed.
Your spells change and are removed, added and tuned. They're borrowed.

It's just a different way to give you skills. What's good gets ported to talents or baseline in the next patch, see Glimmer of Light gameplay or most Artifact abilities, etc.
You're complaining for the sake of complaining.

I kind of understand the irritation with rental powers. Taking things away, in general, is just bad form. There is a big difference between deciding to give up something that you are upgrading (like older gear) than having something taken from you... and it’s only made worse when you had to do extra in-game things to gain that power that was just taken.

Gaming, in general, is a big waste of time... so having stuff taken from you just kind of shines a light on how much time you wasted, so I am not sure why designers think it’s a good idea.

[Laysson]

Tbh, I'm happy with a bit of grind, commitment and work make feel I deserve the reward. I don't do alts that much so I unlock things just once.

I link the grind, that the core of mmo gaming but I don't like the gating that blizzard is using, just so people can't consume content quickly then complain.

[Lolites]

I can't believe people actually think artifact power is gone. The system is reskinned and renamed as Anima, and collecting anima directly increases your characters power level by giving you access to new passives and abilities in the covenant.

ABILITIES THAT YOU WILL LOSE ACCESS TO IN THE NEXT EXPANSION. MORE BORROWED ABILITIES.

Its the EXACT SAME SYSTEM as artifacts and AP in legion, and HoA and AP/armor traits in BFA. THE EXACT. It will be a grind system.

they said at least a dozen times there is weekly cap for power gains via anima, so its more like valor in pandaria...
if you dont like it, thats fine, but saying its the same as artifact in legion/bfa is retarded...

[Venziir]

They've already said numerous times we arent going to have an AP grind

Theyre discussing 1h fury

They reworked 36 specs

Adventure tables suck but if thats the worst thing in the game then it's ok with me

why don't we ever get threads saying what people like about announcements?

Eh, adding 1-2 old abilties and not doing anything else doesn't equal a "rework".

[keldarepewpew]

Op is twisting alot of things to make his argument. No big changes ? Are you high, did we read the same class changes?

[Sangfoudre]

I link the grind, that the core of mmo gaming but I don't like the gating that blizzard is using, just so people can't consume content quickly then complain.

I understand, they've tried different ways to grind I'm not sure one is better than the others, it may depend on what amount of time you have or how often you can play a week. I was remembering how gear was timegated back in WotLK where you had a finite amount of emblems of frost to buy gear.
WQ/emissaries are great because you can skip a day without too much disadvantage, dailies are common since TBC, I'm not sure the system we have on Bfa is that much longer to grind than in previous xpacs.

[VinceVega]

- Mission table is still here :

Talking about adventures was exciting, then telling us that it's tied to the same crappy table, god, when will we get rid of it ?


- No new class and no big class changes :

Yes, this is still a big let down to me, especially that now, we know that there will no big changes to classes, which means we will have the same classes gameplay as BFA. The two most exciting news I look for on every expansion announcement



- Locking abilities and legendaries behind factions (covenants) :

The same bullshit lock and grind systems they are using from BFA, in a different format.
I know that legendaries recipe will be account wide, but it's just silly to lock behind a faction

- Still no one handed for fury warrior :

Personally, I don't care about this since I prefer two handed but is it this difficult to make it possible for warriors to transmog 2h to 1h, just to satisfy those who likes it ?

Mission Table gets morfed into a mini game where you have to do more than just put three poeple in a slot. More like TFT. An i like it.

We do not need class changes for the sake of it. ALso there are some class changes. Just not completly reworked. Which is something the same amount of people complain about. So no win possible for Blizz here.

Locking behind choices is something i completly support. It is still an rpg. If you don't like this play another game without RPG in it's name. Happy they embrace this aspect of the game more. If i don't like this i go play Diablo or Destiny.

Don't play a warrior so meh. maybe legit.. maybe not.

- - - Updated - - -

I link the grind, that the core of mmo gaming but I don't like the gating that blizzard is using, just so people can't consume content quickly then complain.

MMORPGs need a way to keep you hooked. At that was and will always be gates. Get over it. It was never another way. Every expansion hat locks behind grinds or timegates. Thank god for it otherwise you have to no life to be competitive in any way which will hurt the game even more.

[Jazzhands]

I link the grind, that the core of mmo gaming but I don't like the gating that blizzard is using, just so people can't consume content quickly then complain.

So you'd rather farm islands for 12 hours a day? The last two expansions have had uncapped grinds, and people hate them. MoP, which had Valor as a similar currency and no infinite grinds, is largely hailed as one of the best expansions ever.

[Eosia]

These are two separate things. One is making a change to warrior weapon mechanics, which I personally wouldn't enjoy but don't really mind either way. The second is about transmog restrictions, and if you allowed that, you'd also have to allow other classes do similar stuff too probably, which makes it a big transmog revamp. Again, not something I'm against, but not something I'd kill for either.

What I do not get is why they want Blizzard to nerf Fury by letting them use 1H weapons? Transmog is one thing but they stat loss...

[Halfaheart]

Eh, adding 1-2 old abilties and not doing anything else doesn't equal a "rework".

a rework would be moving talents, adding abilities, and changing the energy type (shaman losing maelstrom)

Just because its not what you wanted doesnt mean they didnt do something

[TheVaryag]

They've already said numerous times we arent going to have an AP grind

Theyre discussing 1h fury

They reworked 36 specs

Adventure tables suck but if thats the worst thing in the game then it's ok with me

why don't we ever get threads saying what people like about announcements?

1. And you trust them to keep their word? Look at the past 3 expansions and tell me they've earned any sort of trust.

2. We can only hope they will, along with two handed enchancement shamans.

3. They reADDED old abilities to current specs setting them Into default mode, the way the should be that's not a rework and that's only half of them. Some are staying the same, Survival Is still melee only that's stupid, destro gets no changes and the new talent it gets Is on the same row as Cataclysm which makes It useless, paladins don't have seals back, death knights have no presences to jump around with, warriors have no stances to dance with and while on warriors, I should be able to use ALL weapons except for Wands. That's the warrior fantasy, I can wield all the weapons and I can't.

Now that they've set or are hopefully setting classes into default, basically how they were in Mists-WoD / slightly better, now they have to BUILD ONTOP OF THAT. I'm not going to give them praise and sing from the building tops that classes are fixed when they are being returned to a proper useable state. Once they add more abilities, more complexity and rebuild the majority of the CLASSES then we'll see some progress. Again, look at Final Fantasy 14 which essentially has specs not classes. And they are amazing and you can take easy queues from them since like It or not, they're the best MMORPG out there with the best story, best gameplay and best class design for a tab targetting game. They are WoW's direct rivals and have blown them out of the water In the past 5 years for every expansion they released, while every expansion WoW has released since has taken WoW down the sewer pipes.

4. These "Adventures" are stupid, It's one of the reasons I still won't believe blizzard have learnt their lessons since they're STILL trying to force THEIR game down our throats, their systems, their ideas that they think are cool and the players just don't appreciate them. That's how they've treated every system they made, It takes 5+ years to get rid of a system we hate cause they keep giving us a minimized version of It, aka borrowed powers, mission tables from WoD, legendaries, AP grinding, infinite dungeon runs ala mythic +, It's Ideas that aren't welcome and liked yet they still try force them down our throats basically telling us - "Okay the tables were bad, but here's a lesser version of it, give It a try you might like i-...no we don't like it.... and blizz be like, ok you didnt like that, but here's ANOTHER table version that you migh-...no It's shit, stop using it-...OKAY BUT HERE'S ADVENTURES..."

It's so condecending, I get that It's their game and whatever but you make It for customers and If you dont take their feedback then what are you making it for? You don't make a car from the 80s today and expect people to buy it and use it cause "Well a car is a car, why you not buy it?" you tailor it, you modifie it, you take feedback you LISTEN. And they simply don't.

Only now they are tokenly listening cause there's fire beneth their feet, people leaving the game, subs dropping like mad, BfA being a complete waste of time and resources, classic wow nothing but a memory of what the game could've been like. And now if Shadowlands flops and It's not a 90 % class rework at MINIMUM then they will see WoW destroyed entirely and remember that In a year or so they're going to be a new final fantasy 14 expansion that will be a big threat to WoW and cause another mass refugee wave to the game, leaving WoW for cat girls and dark knights and gunbreakers.

5. Because most announcemenets appear good at first but then show how backwards Blizz actually are and refuge to listen and grow as a company. "Here's VOID ELVES... but where's the high elves? Did you say high elves? Oh you want VOIDDWARVES right?" you can't talk to them properly they are tooo proud that's their biggest problem, corporate pride.

[Araxie]

I rly dont get this mission table hate,the way it was in wod was horific,basicaly forcing you to play it as much as posible because it was to good...in bfa its a lot better,just a little extra junk with the ocasional decent payoff,but they made it rly annoying with the rng counters,but they said in sl it wwont be like that anymore so sounds good

I agree with you. I'm all for it. I think people are just taking it for face value. Like, "Oh god, another new mechanic for the mission table? Why do we even need a mission table?" That kind of thing. I'm all for it.

[Casperite]

1. And you trust them to keep their word? Look at the past 3 expansions and tell me they've earned any sort of trust.

2. We can only hope they will, along with two handed enchancement shamans.

3. They reADDED old abilities to current specs setting them Into default mode, the way the should be that's not a rework and that's only half of them. Some are staying the same, Survival Is still melee only that's stupid, destro gets no changes and the new talent it gets Is on the same row as Cataclysm which makes It useless, paladins don't have seals back, death knights have no presences to jump around with, warriors have no stances to dance with and while on warriors, I should be able to use ALL weapons except for Wands. That's the warrior fantasy, I can wield all the weapons and I can't.

Now that they've set or are hopefully setting classes into default, basically how they were in Mists-WoD / slightly better, now they have to BUILD ONTOP OF THAT. I'm not going to give them praise and sing from the building tops that classes are fixed when they are being returned to a proper useable state. Once they add more abilities, more complexity and rebuild the majority of the CLASSES then we'll see some progress. Again, look at Final Fantasy 14 which essentially has specs not classes. And they are amazing and you can take easy queues from them since like It or not, they're the best MMORPG out there with the best story, best gameplay and best class design for a tab targetting game. They are WoW's direct rivals and have blown them out of the water In the past 5 years for every expansion they released, while every expansion WoW has released since has taken WoW down the sewer pipes.

4. These "Adventures" are stupid, It's one of the reasons I still won't believe blizzard have learnt their lessons since they're STILL trying to force THEIR game down our throats, their systems, their ideas that they think are cool and the players just don't appreciate them. That's how they've treated every system they made, It takes 5+ years to get rid of a system we hate cause they keep giving us a minimized version of It, aka borrowed powers, mission tables from WoD, legendaries, AP grinding, infinite dungeon runs ala mythic +, It's Ideas that aren't welcome and liked yet they still try force them down our throats basically telling us - "Okay the tables were bad, but here's a lesser version of it, give It a try you might like i-...no we don't like it.... and blizz be like, ok you didnt like that, but here's ANOTHER table version that you migh-...no It's shit, stop using it-...OKAY BUT HERE'S ADVENTURES..."

It's so condecending, I get that It's their game and whatever but you make It for customers and If you dont take their feedback then what are you making it for? You don't make a car from the 80s today and expect people to buy it and use it cause "Well a car is a car, why you not buy it?" you tailor it, you modifie it, you take feedback you LISTEN. And they simply don't.

Only now they are tokenly listening cause there's fire beneth their feet, people leaving the game, subs dropping like mad, BfA being a complete waste of time and resources, classic wow nothing but a memory of what the game could've been like. And now if Shadowlands flops and It's not a 90 % class rework at MINIMUM then they will see WoW destroyed entirely and remember that In a year or so they're going to be a new final fantasy 14 expansion that will be a big threat to WoW and cause another mass refugee wave to the game, leaving WoW for cat girls and dark knights and gunbreakers.

5. Because most announcemenets appear good at first but then show how backwards Blizz actually are and refuge to listen and grow as a company. "Here's VOID ELVES... but where's the high elves? Did you say high elves? Oh you want VOIDDWARVES right?" you can't talk to them properly they are tooo proud that's their biggest problem, corporate pride.

But it is THEIR game. Don't like it? Don't play it. Pretty basic. And to sit here and say they don't listen to feedback is disingenuous at best. Problem is usually they listen and react to feedback too much from they whiney loud minority of players.

[tyrlaan]

1. And you trust them to keep their word? Look at the past 3 expansions and tell me they've earned any sort of trust.

There's a point where, even if your take is valid, that this should be the signal for you to stop playing. If you have zero trust in the people making the game, there's no good reason to keep playing it.

3. They reADDED old abilities to current specs setting them Into default mode, the way the should be that's not a rework and that's only half of them. Some are staying the same, Survival Is still melee only that's stupid, destro gets no changes and the new talent it gets Is on the same row as Cataclysm which makes It useless, paladins don't have seals back, death knights have no presences to jump around with, warriors have no stances to dance with and while on warriors, I should be able to use ALL weapons except for Wands. That's the warrior fantasy, I can wield all the weapons and I can't.

It's fair to dislike all the gaps you mention, but that doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.

4. These "Adventures" are stupid, It's one of the reasons I still won't believe blizzard have learnt their lessons since they're STILL trying to force THEIR game down our throats, their systems, their ideas that they think are cool and the players just don't appreciate them. That's how they've treated every system they made, It takes 5+ years to get rid of a system we hate cause they keep giving us a minimized version of It, aka borrowed powers, mission tables from WoD, legendaries, AP grinding, infinite dungeon runs ala mythic +, It's Ideas that aren't welcome and liked yet they still try force them down our throats basically telling us - "Okay the tables were bad, but here's a lesser version of it, give It a try you might like i-...no we don't like it.... and blizz be like, ok you didnt like that, but here's ANOTHER table version that you migh-...no It's shit, stop using it-...OKAY BUT HERE'S ADVENTURES..."

I mean, there's evidence in this very thread that people like the mission table. I appreciate that you might not like it, but you really should stop writing like you speak for the entire WoW community.

Cut out a lot of other stuff you wrote because it's just clear to me that your level of salt points to... under no uncertain terms... just STOP PLAYING. You are well past the point that its healthy to keep playing a game you hate so much.

----

To reply to primary topic:

Things I don't like about SL -- all the toxic forum posts.

[bloodykiller86]

- Mission table is still here :

Talking about adventures was exciting, then telling us that it's tied to the same crappy table, god, when will we get rid of it ?


- No new class and no big class changes :

Yes, this is still a big let down to me, especially that now, we know that there will no big changes to classes, which means we will have the same classes gameplay as BFA. The two most exciting news I look for on every expansion announcement



- Locking abilities and legendaries behind factions (covenants) :

The same bullshit lock and grind systems they are using from BFA, in a different format.
I know that legendaries recipe will be account wide, but it's just silly to lock behind a faction

- Still no one handed for fury warrior :

Personally, I don't care about this since I prefer two handed but is it this difficult to make it possible for warriors to transmog 2h to 1h, just to satisfy those who likes it ?

Mission table wont be the same and takes away nothing from the game since its pretty much optional

I for one am glad the classes get iterated on, fuck the old system where classes were completely revamped every single expansion that shit was annoying as fuck and while it seems like theres not a lot of changes, looking at fury tree and other abilities we'll have access to, it definitely wont play exactly the same either plus Fury's rotation was beautiful in BFA. Super smooth and not clunky like previous iterations

Also idk why people want SMF back lol i can get the transmog thing though as i do want to transmog the sister blades QuelSerrar and QuelDelar at the same time

[mauserr]

No new class and no big class changes :

Yes, this is still a big let down to me, especially that now, we know that there will no big changes to classes, which means we will have the same classes gameplay as BFA. The two most exciting news I look for on every expansion announcement

Oh, oh, no no no no no no. Not even that. You are going to play a worse version of the same class you are playing right now. It will feel much worse because you are losing corruptions, essences and azerite traits. You will play a shell of what you used to play until they introduce tier sets back again in the second raid tier of the expansion (they said there will be no raid sets during the first raid tier).

[Laysson]

So you'd rather farm islands for 12 hours a day? The last two expansions have had uncapped grinds, and people hate them. MoP, which had Valor as a similar currency and no infinite grinds, is largely hailed as one of the best expansions ever.

Let people play how they want.