I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[anon5123]

If anything flying made world pvp better. You know what it got rid of? The ability to spam camp someone. It didn’t get rid of pvp. If you think there will be no pvp on elemental plateau or the netherwing daily area or isle of queldanas or outside raids like kara or ssc, they are sadly mistaken.

They are taking the ‘vanilla Love’ hype too far and disregarding the expacs that made the game better

Exactly. You still have to be on the ground to do......literally anything. These idiots talk as though you can just be on a flying mount 24/7 and never get touched by anything.

[Whoopax]

Flying destroyed all world interactions, nothing more to say.

[Huggykaze]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

So firstly, world PvP was and is a fucking cancer, and was destroyed not by flying (I still remember ganking and being ganked a ton in quest hubs), but by the pace of world content (there's no time to gank if your target murders 15 enemies in 3 seconds without losing 5% of their HP) and battlegrounds (they are just more efficient). Also, people don't want to gank so they don't get ganked in return and waste the next 2h running from a gank party of 5 sweaty orcs.

Secondly, WoW has always been about PvE and 90% of the content has always catered to PvE players.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Nothing felt as good in PvP as giving up on a BG match because you got Nihilum's Team A on the other side... While playing in a Grand Marshal team.

TBC is not to be blamed for people dropping AV. What is to be blamed for people dropping AV is AV's shitty design that required multiple hours to finish a single battle, often ending in deadlocks at the Alliance bridge or Horde gatehouse. All this time wasted for really nothing to show for it. Obviously people would get tired, even without Arenas, other BGs were just so much more time efficient - I've never seen a R14 team grinding AV.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

1. World PvP was not dead
2. World PvP is not a content that WoW has ever seriously aimed to have
3. Hurr durr I disliked Arena, but most people enjoyed it... Fuck Blizz for killing MY fun and fuck other players for daring to have fun.
4. Chasing a druid around the flag room in WSG was also very fun lol.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

Contrary to BGs Arenas actually had some skill-based elements. But I forget, ganking a 10% hp mage who's engaged with 3 mobs was a barometer of TRUE skill and a TRUE PvP player!

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Correlation does not equal causation. This entire paragraph is a waste of human life.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

So? You a commie or what? The separation has always been there... Those who raided Naxx, and those stuck in MC. Those who could do 5-man Stratholme and those who needed 10 people, etc etc etc. Welcome to life. This includes games too. What's stupid is your logic.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

Dailies were a solution to a problem of... dumb, repetitive, zombie-like grind that EVERYBODY had to partake in. Remember grinding Tyr's Hand? Or Silithus pages? That was SO FUN, SO ENGAGING and SO CHALLENGING!

Nobody was mechanically great back then btw...

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

So you're upset that people had to carry their weight in a team instead of leeching on the skill and dedication of others? Noice.

Going to a better school than your backyard friends, finding a new and better job etc. all reward you for moving on and trying to be better. Do you also write long and cringy posts about it? It's called being rewarding and worthwhile.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

This is the first time you actually made sense in all this bullshit.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

tl;dr - OP is a loser with IQ of a rock.

[keldarepewpew]

Yikes op has a deep hatred for tbc if he has to keep making new acounts to make the same post again and again. I was both a raider and pvper in tbc and for me it was the best expac ever both for pve and pvp. And no i didnt play op fotm class i played ret pala firemage in 2v2 to high rating. And raided as mm hunter. Opinions are just that opinions.

[Logwyn]

Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

World PVP died because the player base realized it was an endless pointless endeavor. I remember the battles at South Shore. You'd line up looking at each other. You'd kill people off they'd just respawn. You'd never gain ground take over the town or anything. After an hour or two people would realize that there was more important and fruitful things to do.


If Blizzard made a way for you to take over towns in the game then you'd see world PVP come back.

[Zero Wing]

The winged dungeons of TBC do not all have thematically dissimilar wings. Auchindoun does; Tempest Keep does; Caverns of Time does; Hellfire Citadel does not; Coilfang Reservoir does not. So Coilfang and Hellfire could have easily been made into single large dungeons if that was what the developers had wanted to do. I think it was a mistake for them to have made every dungeon complex in TBC similar to Scarlet Monastery with winged linear dungeons, but I do tend to prefer the TBC dungeons overall for various reasons.

Someone mentioned that you didn't see people in TBC do "Quagmirran runs" and that's true. In that specific case (and I could be misremembering), it's because Mennu the Betrayer was difficult (impossible?) to skip and neither Mennu nor Rokmar the Crackler entailed a poor enough time/return proposition to recommend avoiding if you were already going to do Quagmirran. The only case where I remember people routinely skipping a boss in TBC heroics is Nethermancer Sepethra in the Mechanar. She was a huge pain in the ass, and many people were there primarily because of the time/return factor presented by the very easy Gatewatchers Gyro-Kill and Iron-Hand dropping a badge and to get the Sun Eater--pre-raid BiS tanking weapon--which dropped off of Pathaleon the Calculator.

[Zarator8]

The winged dungeons of TBC do not all have thematically dissimilar wings. Auchindoun does; Tempest Keep does; Caverns of Time does; Hellfire Citadel does not; Coilfang Reservoir does not. So Coilfang and Hellfire could have easily been made into single large dungeons if that was what the developers had wanted to do. I think it was a mistake for them to have made every dungeon complex in TBC similar to Scarlet Monastery with winged linear dungeons, but I do tend to prefer the TBC dungeons overall for various reasons.

Someone mentioned that you didn't see people in TBC do "Quagmirran runs" and that's true. In that specific case (and I could be misremembering), it's because Mennu the Betrayer was difficult (impossible?) to skip and neither Mennu nor Rokmar the Crackler entailed a poor enough time/return proposition to recommend avoiding if you were already going to do Quagmirran. The only case where I remember people routinely skipping a boss in TBC heroics is Nethermancer Sepethra in the Mechanar. She was a huge pain in the ass, and many people were there primarily because of the time/return factor presented by the very easy Gatewatchers Gyro-Kill and Iron-Hand dropping a badge and to get the Sun Eater--pre-raid BiS tanking weapon--which dropped off of Pathaleon the Calculator.

Tbh, I don't remember much boss skipping at all in TBC because, early on, nearly every boss drops valuable loot. And later, once you only need BoJ and sockets, you have enough DPS to make even bosses like Nethermancer Sepethrea roll over and die.

[Zero Wing]

Tbh, I don't remember much boss skipping at all in TBC because, early on, nearly every boss drops valuable loot. And later, once you only need BoJ and sockets, you have enough DPS to make even bosses like Nethermancer Sepethrea roll over and die.

Maybe it was just on the server(s) I was on. People also loved to cheese the Pathaleon trash by running back down the elevator, which I though was a huger pain in the ass than just fighting them (TBF, as a mage in shitty gear, I was typically worried sick about my mana situation for the trash waves on the bridge + Pathaleon.)

As a side note, there were typically heroics that nobody ever wanted to do at all, like Heroic Old Hillsbrad (Escape from Durnholde Keep) and Heroic Auchenai Crypts. Both of those had incredibly difficult parts and the time/return on them was considerably out of whack for the general pubbie populace. If I'm remembering correctly (and again, I might not be), the Epoch Hunter (last boss of OHB) was stupid hard (and didn't drop loot comparable to quite other hard end bosses such as Murmur), and Auchenai Crypts had trash that just sucked unbelievably bad and only had two bosses.

[Demithio]

You're going back some years, but I do recall some PVE vs PVP splitting going on to a small degree. During TBC it wasn't as bad as you make it sound however. AV was still very fun wearing PVE gear. In fact, I had no issues with any of the BGs as far as I can recall. I suppose the one thing I found pokey in TBC were arenas. Having been mainly a raider, the pvp scene didn't affect me much. Flying only killed world pvp in later expansions when Blizzard went nuts with it. I recall my raid group going on massive assaults on horde positions after we got done raiding during TBC. We would literally get dozens of horde chasing us from town to town. No one was flying in Azeroth back then, only in outlands.

In any case, it was multitudes more fun back in that time then the absolute junk we have now in normal wow.

[RoKPaNda]

Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

Flying didn't kill world PvP. There was still plenty of world PvP at the start of BC. Resilience killed world PvP. If you had resilience and your opponent didn't it was a free kill for you and completely unsatisfying for them. If you had resilience and so did your opponent PvP was satisfying for neither of you because what was fast thrilling skirmishes in Vanilla were several minute slogfests in full PvP gear in BC.

[Essem]

Try to farm on the elemental plateau on a pvp server, and you will see how much flying killed world pvp, sure you can sit on your mount in the air. But you sure as hell wont get any farming done doing that. If you wanna kill stuff you gotta land and fight for the resources/mobs.

All it does is removing ganks on the way to the place youre going. But once you are there, you gotta fight if you need to to be able to stay there.

[Mister K]

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

Great, hated the shit PVP BGs Classic had. No offence but classic was 0 about skill, 0. Get gear and wreck the shit out of your opponent. World PVP 1v2, 1v3 would be fun and only way to really prove skill and have fun metas.

I don't think your points are very accurate at all. Arena certainly did not kill class uniqueness. Also flying was unique to Outland.

[Necromantic]

Great, hated the shit PVP BGs Classic had. No offence but classic was 0 about skill, 0. Get gear and wreck the shit out of your opponent. World PVP 1v2, 1v3 would be fun and only way to really prove skill and have fun metas.

I don't think your points are very accurate at all. Arena certainly did not kill class uniqueness. Also flying was unique to Outland.

To some extent. There was skill involved because so many were stupid back then.

I won't forget Warriors would were slashing and hacking away at my Warlock while I just spammed Drain Life with Fel Concentration talented. They rarely ever used interrupt. That's just one of many examples that I could go on and on about. While one would say "thats not skill, they're just stupid" ... being stupid means their skill level is very low.

Arena did not kill PVP... resilience did.

[Kralljin]

Arena did not kill PVP... resilience did.

Resilience was basically mandatory for Arena because without it, any match would have exclusively revolved around bursting the opponent down.
I mean, what would your average 3min Mage do without Resilience? Walk in, set up some CC, deliver some crazy burst combo, get +15, rinse & repeat.

Not saying Resilience was super amazing but you can't take the Classic PvP Balance, put it into a deathmatch mode and expect it works out.
Vanilla PvP (at least in BG's) was partially balanced around the fact that killing someone doesn't mean they lost the match, it's just a setback for enemy, not outright defeat.

A 3min Mage one shotting someone just didn't matter that much in Vanilla, because the Mage was deadweight for the next 3min and got its ass torn open by every Warrior, Rogue & Hunter.

[Necromantic]

Resilience was basically mandatory for Arena because without it, any match would have exclusively revolved around bursting the opponent down.
I mean, what would your average 3min Mage do without Resilience? Walk in, set up some CC, deliver some crazy burst combo, get +15, rinse & repeat.

Not saying Resilience was super amazing but you can't take the Classic PvP Balance, put it into a deathmatch mode and expect it works out.
Vanilla PvP (at least in BG's) was partially balanced around the fact that killing someone doesn't mean they lost the match, it's just a setback for enemy, not outright defeat.

A 3min Mage one shotting someone just didn't matter that much in Vanilla, because the Mage was deadweight for the next 3min and got its ass torn open by every Warrior, Rogue & Hunter.

While you're not wrong why they added it, I still even today believe they could have changed things without adding the shitstorm that resilience was.

[Darist3c]

My single favorite moment in all of WoW was my guild’s first Illidan kill, 3rd on server, and having a Warglaive drop. They don’t make fights like that anymore.

Also, Kara is the best 10 mans ever.

[Nicholaes92]

While you're not wrong why they added it, I still even today believe they could have changed things without adding the shitstorm that resilience was.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with resil. It was perfert in TBC. Tell me exactly what you thought was wrong with it

[Xykotic]

Can't wait for TBC. Honestly the hype for it is impacting my enjoyment of vanilla. I love playing Enhancement shaman, but its hot garbage in PvE, and very medicore in PvP unless you get insane luck with windfury procs, which nearly never happens for me, leaving me having to play classes I don't really want to play to perform at the level I want.

I like the raids in TBC a lot more, which is my prime focus. Not only is my beloved Enhancement spec viable, its straight up necessary for high level play. I can't tell you how much I want this. To be needed, and not a burden on my raids.

I enjoy Arena a lot more than WPvP, which in my experience just amounts to one side of the fight outnumbering and trashing the other while being as toxic as possible in the process. Atleast with ratings, you generally meet people who are about your skill level, so the fights never feel super unfair, and its more likely the other side was just better skilled/geared if they win.

[Satelliteyears0o]

Flying did not destroy world pvp. If you actually played tbc and went out of shattrath you'd know there were pretty good battles in nagrand, hellfire and terokkar at the objectives and at the daily hubs.

How exactly was mindleslly farming mobs better than dailies? Which ilone is more zombir like?

And by no means did you always have something to do in vanilla, not anymore than tbc anyway. Unless you were a high rank tryhard. But then you had the conqueror/justicar titles which also took a really good time of mindleslly spamming bgs

Flying DID kill wpvp. When you can fly and hover there indefinitely instead of organizing an attack on said Halaa. You could pretty much circumvent any contact from enemy players and choose ur moments. It trivialized the world and took from it the nature of exploration and immersion. Now, hellfire had a lot of pvp yes but... not the same when again... u have flying introduced, it sorta ruins the flow of it.

I also remember the distinct feeling of saying "man, no one ever leaves shattrath anymore, u can queue foreverything here and the world is dead."

[Nicholaes92]

Flying DID kill wpvp. When you can fly and hover there indefinitely instead of organizing an attack on said Halaa. You could pretty much circumvent any contact from enemy players and choose ur moments. It trivialized the world and took from it the nature of exploration and immersion. Now, hellfire had a lot of pvp yes but... not the same when again... u have flying introduced, it sorta ruins the flow of it.

I also remember the distinct feeling of saying "man, no one ever leaves shattrath anymore, u can queue foreverything here and the world is dead."

man, no one ever leaves shattrath anymore, u can queue foreverything here and the world is dead.

How I know you didn't play TBC