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  1. #1

    Question (Spoiler) Kil’jaeden and the Shadowlands

    Hello everyone,

    Now that it has been revealed that Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were created in the maw, more specifically inside Torghast, by the forge of domination. My question is how Kil’jaeden or his agents were able to enter the Maw, venture into Torghast and get Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, and leave. From what blizzard has said no one enters the maw and leave, but clearly Kil’jaeden already did that and not even just the maw but would have had to enter Torghast. Will this question be answered as we explore the maw?
    Last edited by Susanoo; 2020-04-14 at 09:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Cause they don't care about the lore.

    And nope, it probably won't be answered but it will be something that makes no sense as usual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Susanoo View Post
    Hello everyone,

    Now that it has been revealed that Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were created in the maw by the forge of domination. My question is how Kil’jaeden or his agents were able to enter the Maw, venture into Torghast and get Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, and leave. From what blizzard has said no one enters the maw and leave, but clearly Kil’jaeden already did that and not even just the maw but would have had to enter Torghast. Will this question be answered as we explore the maw?
    They literally announced that this will be explored in-game during Blizzcon.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Frinata's Avatar
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    Setting aside the obvious plothole of writing after the fact

    I think it will be filled in, even if in some way. Blizzard has written that no one has entered AND left before us, which either suggests 2 things

    The first is what we're all basing it on; No one, not one being, has ever entered the Shadowlands, and then left, thus prompting that there was some magic used that allowed Kil'jaeden to steal these artifacts away, without physically entering the Lands of Death.

    The second, is that this statement from Blizzard is only meant to denote those that naturally go to the Shadowlands on their death. The Demons are different, when they die, they go somewhere else, as suggested by Blizzard's own lore. Therefore, if Kil'jaeden were to go to the Shadowlands physically, and then leave with his theft commited, he wouldn't count to the notion of "No one who goes to the Shadowlands has ever left"

    That's just my thoughts on it, atleast. There might be lore tucked away or shoved in our face about this particular plot line, or they might just leave it alone, because of the slight mess of it all. Either way, I'm interested to wait see which is which
    Last edited by Frinata; 2020-04-14 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Left out a key phrase

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    They literally announced that this will be explored in-game during Blizzcon.
    Blizzard announces many things that don’t make it into launch. How would you speculate that he did this then?

  6. #6
    I really hope it will be revealed through some connection between the Venthyr and Dreadlords, so they would at least mask the model and idea recyclation that these are.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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    Maybe Jailer works with legion and gave those away willingly.
    THE HORDE WILL ENDURE
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Setting aside the obvious plothole of writing after the fact

    I think it will be filled in, even if in some way. Blizzard has written that no one has entered AND left before us, which either suggests 2 things

    The first is what we're all basing it on; No one, not one being, has ever entered the Shadowlands, and then left, thus prompting that there was some magic used that allowed Kil'jaeden to steal these artifacts away, without physically entering the Lands of Death.

    The second, is that this statement from Blizzard is only meant to denote those that naturally go to the Shadowlands on their death. The Demons are different, when they die, they go somewhere else, as suggested by Blizzard's own lore. Therefore, if Kil'jaeden were to go to the Shadowlands physically, and then leave with his theft commited, he wouldn't count to the notion of "No one who goes to the Shadowlands has ever left"

    That's just my thoughts on it, atleast. There might be lore tucked away or shoved in our face about this particular plot line, or they might just leave it alone, because of the slight mess of it all. Either way, I'm interested to wait see which is which
    There is a third option that is much much more viable when looking at how terrible the writing of Shadowlands is so far: Blizzard will change their stance and say that demons are different and they can freely go back and forth in the Shadowlands.

  9. #9
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is a third option that is much much more viable when looking at how terrible the writing of Shadowlands is so far: Blizzard will change their stance and say that demons are different and they can freely go back and forth in the Shadowlands.
    I mean, demons seem to be able to defy death unless its in the twisting nether.

    They could've done some kind of suicide, grab the crown and then do their demon resurection.
    Last edited by Nnyco; 2020-04-14 at 09:41 PM.
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    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Frinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is a third option that is much much more viable when looking at how terrible the writing of Shadowlands is so far: Blizzard will change their stance and say that demons are different and they can freely go back and forth in the Shadowlands.
    Or you can try liking things instead of hating things

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Setting aside the obvious plothole of writing after the fact

    I think it will be filled in, even if in some way. Blizzard has written that no one has entered AND left before us, which either suggests 2 things

    The first is what we're all basing it on; No one, not one being, has ever entered the Shadowlands, and then left, thus prompting that there was some magic used that allowed Kil'jaeden to steal these artifacts away, without physically entering the Lands of Death.

    The second, is that this statement from Blizzard is only meant to denote those that naturally go to the Shadowlands on their death. The Demons are different, when they die, they go somewhere else, as suggested by Blizzard's own lore. Therefore, if Kil'jaeden were to go to the Shadowlands physically, and then leave with his theft commited, he wouldn't count to the notion of "No one who goes to the Shadowlands has ever left"

    That's just my thoughts on it, atleast. There might be lore tucked away or shoved in our face about this particular plot line, or they might just leave it alone, because of the slight mess of it all. Either way, I'm interested to wait see which is which
    My major tinfoil hat theory is that the legion and the jailer originally had aligned goals. The legion wanted to cleanse the universe of all life. The jailer grows in power the more death there is. Potentially Frostmourne and the helm were items that would give the user Power from the shadowlands, and send souls directly into the maw, but Kil’jaeden and the nathrezim repurposed the items. This would tie into the lore that the Nathrezim crafted Frostmourne and the helm. Now Frostmourne would absorb souls into its own pocket dimension and the helm still gives the Lich king power over death magic. Kil’jaeden probably knew that giving the jailer to much power would pose a threat to the legion in time. Therefore he took the items, changed them, and then sent them to Azeroth. /tinfoilhatoff

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Susanoo View Post
    Hello everyone,

    Now that it has been revealed that Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were created in the maw, more specifically inside Torghast, by the forge of domination. My question is how Kil’jaeden or his agents were able to enter the Maw, venture into Torghast and get Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, and leave. From what blizzard has said no one enters the maw and leave, but clearly Kil’jaeden already did that and not even just the maw but would have had to enter Torghast. Will this question be answered as we explore the maw?
    KJ was able to thx to the dreadlords who have a connection with the venthyr.

    Edit: What I mean from that is I that dreadlords may be demonic versions of venthyr, as they have vampiric abilities, and love bats.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Alodi View Post
    Maybe Jailer works with legion and gave those away willingly.
    That’s what I suspect as well. A trade between the jailer and Kil’jaeden.

  14. #14
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    Kil'jaeden not only was a demon but also was one hell of a sorcerer and he was accompanied by his Dreadlord entourage - who also are notorious for being the magical types.

    He probably just bruteforced inside the Shadowlands, kicked some Necrolord ass, invaded the Forge and slapped the blacksmith until he got what he wanted.

    Or even better: Kil'jaeden made a deal with the Jailer. With the Helm, the Deceiver would cause untold causalities in Azeroth, and the slain souls would serve Archimonde's Scourge until Azeroth got conquered and he ended the undead's service, sending the souls straight to the Maw. Problem probably began with Ner'zhul's plot and betrayal - which is why Sylvanas calls the Helm "Crown of a Usurper" or something like that.

  15. #15
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    I mean, demons seem to be able to defy death unless its in the twisting nether.

    They could've done some kind of suicide, grab the crown and then do their demon resurection.
    Whenever I don't have an answer for why something happens in WoW, I will typically fall back to D&D. Blizz seems to get a lot of their core ideas from there, which they then add flavour to. A conceptual map of the D&D planes is below, but the TL;DR is that all outer planes are intrinsically connected, but are largely separated from the elemental and material planes. Moving between the two requires some kind of portal, natural phenomenon (i.e.: dying will cause you soul to move from the material plane to the astral planes after a time), or by traversing the chaotic Astral Sea. The Twisting Nether, in this case, seems analogous to the Astral Sea. I would hazard a guess that metaphysical movement from one outer plane to another, or possibly a transitive plane like the Twisting Nether, is probably not considered leaving in the same sense that moving from the Maw into the rest of the Shadowlands would be.

    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2020-04-15 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Clarity
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  16. #16
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Or you can try liking things instead of hating things
    Or you can try having standards.

  17. #17
    Lich King and Sylvanas are very similar in the sense that they both want to purge Azeroth of all life, thus aligning perfectly with the Jailer goal of empowering himself by gaining a massive amount of souls from the fallen. Just like Sylvanas, the Lich King would have made for a natural ally for the Jailer. Thus, I think that Kiljaeden made an alliance with the Jailer and the converesation went like this:

    K: Jailer, forge me an helm to control the undead.
    J: Why would I do that?
    K: I will give that helm to an orc who will use it to purge Azeroth of all life, giving you plenty of souls to feed on.
    J: Deal, here is the forge, build that helm.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Whenever I don't have an answer for why something happens in WoW, I will typically fall back to D&D. Blizz seems to get a lot of their core ideas from there, which they then add flavour to. A conceptual map of the D&D planes is below, but the TL;DR is that all outer planes are intrinsically connected, but are largely separated from the elemental and material planes. Moving between the two requires some kind of portal, natural phenomenon (i.e.: dying will cause you soul to move from the material plane to the astral planes after a time), or by traversing the chaotic Astral Sea. The Twisting Nether, in this case, seems analogous to the Astral Sea. I would hazard a guess that metaphysical movement from one outer plane to another, or possibly a transitive plane like the Twisting Nether, is probably not considered leaving in the same sense that moving from the Maw into the Shadowlands proper would be.
    But the Maw is IN the SHadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Lich King and Sylvanas are very similar in the sense that they both want to purge Azeroth of all life, thus aligning perfectly with the Jailer goal of empowering himself by gaining a massive amount of souls from the fallen. Just like Sylvanas, the Lich King would have made for a natural ally for the Jailer. Thus, I think that Kiljaeden made an alliance with the Jailer and the converesation went like this:

    K: Jailer, forge me an helm to control the undead.
    J: Why would I do that?
    K: I will give that helm to an orc who will use it to purge Azeroth of all life, giving you plenty of souls to feed on.
    J: Deal, here is the forge, build that helm.
    I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. A Surprisingly large ammount of people are okay with making deals with a dude named Kil'Jaeden the Deceiver.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Cause they don't care about the lore.

    And nope, it probably won't be answered but it will be something that makes no sense as usual.
    first reply. correct reply. imo. exactly this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Alodi View Post
    Maybe Jailer works with legion and gave those away willingly.
    Maybe Blizz thought not a second about consequences of lore. or quality. or overall stories. or... whatever. maybe they just take whats selling good (or what they think that it sells good) and what is already there, since its cheap.

    if you did not realize it: last 7-8 years all what blizz did with lore is recycle endless from all that old shit, that was created when blizz wasnt a money makin machine. by metzen and others. in the „creative“ days. aka the „long ago“ past. warcraft lore ended de facto after WotlK, in the books as well as in game. maybe, at max, MoP. since then, its: „take big lore names and form some shit story out of it“. top of that was Legion, where they just spitted in a thousand lore characters or just names/story in different class order hall stuff, i.e. in cheap quests. or at max as cheap quick shit raid bosses. just look how they burned one of the most important lore characters, like kiljaeden, in a quick shit story, like „and here is your final boss for this patch. have fun.“. same with aszhara in BfA. years ago ppl thought aszhara get an own xpac. lol. burned for the masses. big names. recycled shit. selling point. thats it. nothing more.

    that said: not a second a sane person can believe that they thought about the overall story and lore and all the implications when they just use some cool maw story shit to attract ppl with, lol, „deep lore“. its cheap shit. over and over. and they give a fuck. its all for the money. nothing more nothing less. thats all. so every cool speculation why and what is around 15-20 years to late, in the wow universe.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Susanoo View Post
    Blizzard announces many things that don’t make it into launch. How would you speculate that he did this then?
    I don't have to speculate.

    The expansion was literally announced saying we will learn more about Frostmounre and the Helm.
    Blizzard cannot simply "not make it" when it comes to Frostmourne and the Helm.

    Worst case scenario you will not like the explanation. There will be one tho, 140%.

    It is pointless to speculate about things that are already announced to be on the way. You'll get so tangled in your own fan-fic you will be disappointed with literally anything else. And Blizz doesn't care about your fan-fic.

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