9.0 General Discussion

[Cosmic Janitor]

Dead Night Elf wisp flushed directly to the Maw when Teldrassil burned sounds more than a the quote you're asking for. So instead of going to Ardenweald , to the Maw you go.

That is why I explicitly stated "before current events". Them going there is already due to Sylvanas schemes.

[therumblings]

she commited these horrible crimes, for a good reason like replacing the current system of life and death

They don't need replacing. Sylvanas and the Jailer are the literal cause of everything out of whack in the Shadowlands. In order for this backbreaking argument to work, Sylvanas would have committed genocide in order to fix a problem she caused, making innocent night elves be tortured in hell, just to... save them from it? What?? lol

What does it matter that tens of thousands of souls spent some time in the Maw, if the rest of eternity will be in a better place?

God tier kek

[Ersula]

Her reasoning is stupidly simplistic. She was given a vision of Heaven, most likely Bastion after being killed by Arthas, and after being released and doing horrible acts like performing live human experimentation on innocent farmers for the purpose of developing an extremely lethal plague, she was horrified to realize she was going to superhell when she commited suicide in Icecrown.
After that her actions are quite simple. Prevent death indefinitely so she does not have to go to hell. You don't get a backstory much simpler than that.

If you read Edge of Night, as you all cite as the be-all-end-all of understanding Sylvanas' character: Your takeaway shouldn't have been "Sylvanas just doesn't want to die," it should have been "The Valkyr have some kind of greater scheme going on, and whatever it is has given Sylvanas a new purpose"

And now in Bastion, we see there is some sort of Kyrian scheme going on, that has led to an ideological schism. Just like you have one kind of Azeroth Valkyr who consider Sylvanas abhorrent in Stormheim & another who pledged themselves to her without even being asked.

[Sondrelk]

What you're saying makes perfect sense to me. Could also be the reason why she allied herself with the Jailer, in order to get out-of-jail card when her end is near. But i personally believe that there is more to it. Personally very focused on the "I will set us all free" quote from the trailer. Setting someone free is arguably a positive thing, if she is freeing people from the "shackles of life" there gotta be a good reason for it i assume. It also serves as the last thing you hear in the cinematic, so I suppose that there is some weight to the quote, and a reason for her motivations.



I am not sure if we know what will happen by (as you put it) destroying reality. Is it confirmed that the worst of the worst from the Maw will be released, or is it just speculation?

This may be farfetched, but in my opinion. If she commited these horrible crimes, for a good reason like replacing the current system of life and death (as Ersula suggested). Currently in the afterlife people who are considered GOOD gets the memories whiped in order to stay "pure" with the Bastions. Being a clone of everyone else in the afterlife for purity FOR ALL ETERNITY. And this is where the "good guys" go. Imagine what Revendreth and Maldraxxus does to you? Not to mention the Maw. Replacing this horrible system that turns us in to a drone, tortures us or worse FOR ETERNITY is in my opinion very justified. Cuz the afterlife is the endgame FOR ALL OF US, where we will spent the rest of eternity and I'd hate for my afterlife to be in the current shadowlands.

So with this in mind, that we are talking ETERNITY and big picture stuff. (This is going to sound cynical, but bear with me) What does it matter that tens of thousands of souls spent some time in the Maw, if the rest of eternity will be in a better place?

Yeah yeah I know i know, I sound crazy, and like a fanboi.. I guess I am, I want to see that one of my favorite characters have understandable, and reasonable motivations for doing horrible acts, because anything else would be a waste of a great character.

Or, counterpoint. Sylvanas is saying that she intends to set everyone free because she is an insane megalomaniac, who has convinced herself that everyone hates their life as muc has they do and would all gladly die instead of living with their families or whatever.
This isnt an uncommon motivation, it is the entry level creative writing for villains to give them more than a single dimension.


For those whose mind gets wiped. Bastion isnt the catchall heaven for everyone, it is specifically the place you get sent if you are a selfless paragon whose life has been dedicated to helping those less fortunate. Removing their memories is a process that is most likely done to make them impartial, not to brainwash them. Yes, it is a bit morally dubious, which is likely why the Lyrian questline will end with that practice being optional instead of mandatory.
Besides, it is made very clear that those who do not wish to dedicate their lives to service will instead just get sent to a different afterlife.

Maldraxxus is where the people who love war get sent, and is an afterlife dedicated to making sure that those who love war and keep warring for all eternity, even giving them a purpose in defending the Shadowlands from external threats. Nothing about it so far has been even close to morally dubious. People in it have been, but i hardly find that an indictment on the realm itself.

Revandreth is where the sinful who can still be saved go. It is almost quite literally Purgatory from Dante's Divine Comedy. Those who get sent there have their sins removed forcibly, both as an act of penance, and as a way to allow them to move on to a different afterlife. Nothing shady is being done there as far as we know until Sylvanas attacked and Denathrius allied with the Jailer.


I am not sure what would constitute an understandable motivation if one of the oldest character motivations for heroes and villains alike don't cut it. Characters being afraid to die and wanting to prevent it has been a thing since the first recorded stories, and likely spanning far beyond that with oral traditions.

[LemonDemonGirl]

All these people in this exact same thread defending Arthas as doing nothing wrong? Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks the Maw is too harsh. Not unlike the ethical dilemma of Christianity being a religion of "forgiveness" but also having a policy of eternal damnation.

You're not the only one. I think so too. The though of having my soul locked in a tiny cell guarded by hellspawn for all eternity disturbs me greatly... :s

Maybe not destroying death entirely, but replacing it with a new dicotomy. I keep returning to the idea that in order for there to be expansions after this one the Shadowlands have to become moot in some way: Like destroying them utterly & replacing them with a new system of life & death. If that's the goal & she succeeds, a lot of people won't feel she was justified & that's just fine, because it's still a good motivation regardless.

The 'current' Afterlife realms seem really awful (except Ardenweald, you can just rest for all eternity lol), soo it might be better to just destroy them and replace them with something less intense and better. Maybe an Afterlife for 'everyone' that's neutral. And Bwonsamdi can keep his Afterlife, it doesn't seem that bad. Just weird to look at lol

[IAMANIKOLAS]

They don't need replacing. Sylvanas and the Jailer are the literal cause of everything out of whack in the Shadowlands. In order for this backbreaking argument to work, Sylvanas would have committed genocide in order to fix a problem she caused, making innocent night elves be tortured in hell, just to... save them from it? What?? lol



God tier kek

Is it confirmed, or speculation that Sylvanas and the Jailer is the cause of "everything out of whack" in the Shadowlands? I don't remember, hearing or reading about it anywhere, but please share your source. Last i read, we don't know jack about why "The wheel of death is broken"

[vertigo12]

If you read Edge of Night, as you all cite as the be-all-end-all of understanding Sylvanas' character: Your takeaway shouldn't have been "Sylvanas just doesn't want to die," it should have been "The Valkyr have some kind of greater scheme going on, and whatever it is has given Sylvanas a new purpose"

And now in Bastion, we see there is some sort of Kyrian scheme going on, that has led to an ideological schism. Just like you have one kind of Azeroth Valkyr who consider Sylvanas abhorrent in Stormheim & another who pledged themselves to her without even being asked.

I guess the Forsworn would sooner or later Ally themselves with Sylvanas..

[Sharby]

The forsworn colors look much better than the standard Kyrian colors so I hope they don't become evil and are instead a customization option.

[Izalla]

Is it confirmed, or speculation that Sylvanas and the Jailer is the cause of "everything out of whack" in the Shadowlands? I don't remember, hearing or reading about it anywhere, but please share your source. Last i read, we don't know jack about why "The wheel of death is broken"

It's been confirmed that it happened during Legion, but I don't think they've said anything other than that. Considering what Sylvanas was up to during Legion, I wouldn't be surprised if she had a direct hand in it with her Helya deal and all that.

[IAMANIKOLAS]

-SNIP-

Thank you for this, you bring up some exciting new information and some questions that I need to think a bit about.

[therumblings]

Is it confirmed, or speculation that Sylvanas and the Jailer is the cause of "everything out of whack" in the Shadowlands? I don't remember, hearing or reading about it anywhere, but please share your source. Last i read, we don't know jack about why "The wheel of death is broken"

It's been confirmed Sylvanas has been working with the Jailer since Edge of Night, and the Shadowlands have been out of whack since Legion. Sylvanas has been committing acts of genocide and war for no purpose other than to feed the Jailer souls, thus putting people in the wrong realm.

"The machine of death is broken, and players entering the Shadowlands will find the realm of the dead in disarray. In the natural order of things, souls are sorted and sent on to an afterlife realm appropriate to the lives they lived, but now, but over the past few years, all souls who have perished—including the innocents slain at Teldrassil—are being funneled directly into the Maw. The Shadowlands are starving for anima even as the Maw continues to grow from the glut of fresh souls.
Sylvanas has been seemingly perpetrating acts to bring about great amounts of death and destruction. In partnership with the Jailer, they have been working toward a common end for some time."

Source: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23187291

[Sondrelk]

You're not the only one. I think so too. The though of having my soul locked in a tiny cell guarded by hellspawn for all eternity disturbs me greatly... :s


The 'current' Afterlife realms seem really awful (except Ardenweald, you can just rest for all eternity lol), soo it might be better to just destroy them and replace them with something less intense and better. Maybe an Afterlife for 'everyone' that's neutral. And Bwonsamdi can keep his Afterlife, it doesn't seem that bad. Just weird to look at lol

I don't really see what is so abhorrent about them, honestly.

Bastion is the most questionable one, which is likely why the Kyrian storyline will revolve around possibly changing it. And even then, it isnt a brainwashing cult done to random people, it is giving selfless people a chance to help those needy forever. Which you would assume is what they would want. It doesnt lobotomize people or anything, it removes their memories of being alive so they can be impartial, as you would imagine would be needed for immortal angels with teh ability to revive the dead.

Ardenweald is a place of rebirth. I don't think looking weird is enough of a justification to considering it questionable.

Maldraxxus is similar to Bastion a place for the martial souls to engage in combat forever, protecting the afterlife. Or move on, as those who die there get reincarnated.

Revandreth is purgatory. It's stated purpose is taking the sinful and cleansing them so they can go to a better afterlife.

The Maw is the only one that could be considered truly questionable, and that is supposed to be superhell, reserved fro only the worst of the unrepentant souls.


and even beyond that, there are supposedly infinite afterlives beyond those we have seen here. Presumably there are an infinite amount of afterlives for thsoe who lived unremarkable lives to frolic in.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it confirmed, or speculation that Sylvanas and the Jailer is the cause of "everything out of whack" in the Shadowlands? I don't remember, hearing or reading about it anywhere, but please share your source. Last i read, we don't know jack about why "The wheel of death is broken"

It is speculation for now. But we know that it was broken around the time Sylvanas was starting her scheme with Helya and has benefitted her immensely, especially considering she has helped it along with even more souls.
Doesnt take a supergenius to draw conclusions on who is to blame.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You're not the only one. I think so too. The though of having my soul locked in a tiny cell guarded by hellspawn for all eternity disturbs me greatly... :s

Unless you're on a path of turning incredibly cruel ruthless and evil, you don't have anything to worry about, most people here wouldn't end up in the Maw. Example, someone like Garrosh probably did okayish up until Cata thats when his chances of being in the Maw increased. No idea if he's ingame but if he decided to act the way he did at his trial, he would end up going to the Maw(He did do horrible things however if he owned up to it he might have a chance to change but again thats up to Blizz).

[Ersula]

The 'current' Afterlife realms seem really awful (except Ardenweald, you can just rest for all eternity lol), soo it might be better to just destroy them and replace them with something less intense and better. Maybe an Afterlife for 'everyone' that's neutral. And Bwonsamdi can keep his Afterlife, it doesn't seem that bad. Just weird to look at lol

Except it's bad all-over. Ardenweald souls don't get to stay there: They get recycled. Your only choices are "Defend the Shadowlands" "Build stuff to defend the Shadowlands" "Punish souls" "Get recycled" or "The Maw". And I don't know what's going on with Bwonsamdi but it's very confusing. I don't think the Devs themselves have sorted it out. Vol'jin wants to replace Mueh'zala with Bwonsamdi, but also Bwonsamdi says he works for Mueh'zala? And Sylvanas sent Nathanos to kill Bwonsamdi? I got no explainations for any of that

I guess the Forsworn would sooner or later Ally themselves with Sylvanas..

In Bastion you see this conflict is new, & the Lightsworn & Forsworn used to get along... And then you might notice Sylvanas has both light & dark style Valkyr...

[Sondrelk]

The forsworn colors look much better than the standard Kyrian colors so I hope they don't become evil and are instead a customization option.

The Forsworn we mainly interract with seem mostly to just want to keep their memories of those they love. And given Uther is among them and we have a blue version datamined the story will likely end with the Forsworn rejoining the Kyrians.
Besides, why would those who have been chosen as selfless, whose main motivation is remembering those they love conspire with someone who is willing to kill their families anyways? Seems more likely they have been tricked and we will help them see the truth if you ally with the Kyrian.

- - - Updated - - -

Except it's bad all-over. Ardenweald souls don't get to stay there: They get recycled. Your only choices are "Defend the Shadowlands" "Build stuff to defend the Shadowlands" "Punish souls" "Get recycled" or "The Maw". And I don't know what's going on with Bwonsamdi but it's very confusing. I don't think the Devs themselves have sorted it out. Vol'jin wants to replace Mueh'zala with Bwonsamdi, but also Bwonsamdi says he works for Mueh'zala? And Sylvanas sent Nathanos to kill Bwonsamdi? I got no explainations for any of that


In Bastion you see this conflict is new, & the Lightsworn & Forsworn used to get along... And then you might notice Sylvanas has both light & dark style Valkyr...

Those are the choices we as the player are allowed to see. We are also told that teh Shadowlands is infinite, and it stands to reason that the souls we see are not indicative of the entirety of the souls in the universe, so it stands to reason there are other realms beyond that we are not seeing and are generally kinda bland where the regular people go to spend their afterlives.

[Ersula]

Sylvanas has been seemingly perpetrating acts to bring about great amounts of death and destruction. In partnership with the Jailer, they have been working toward a common end for some time."

That "seemingly" thrown in there is narrative shorthand for "not really"

[therumblings]

That "seemingly" thrown in there is narrative shorthand for "not really"

Okay, that's still speculation, what I presented are raw facts.

[Alanar]

It will be fun to see when you have the self-proclaimed PvP masters running around in pugs.

The horror..

[Sondrelk]

The horror..

"Dude, why di you spend all your cooldowns to kill me? You autocrit anyways, shouldnt you save the cooldowns forwhen you can damage the boss?"
"Sorry, i have just been spending too much time in high ranked arenas, my reflexes are finely tuned and i had to use this time in this meaningless dungeon to practice my rotation for the PvP Arena world championships."

[Ersula]

The Forsworn we mainly interract with seem mostly to just want to keep their memories of those they love. And given Uther is among them and we have a blue version datamined the story will likely end with the Forsworn rejoining the Kyrians.
Besides, why would those who have been chosen as selfless, whose main motivation is remembering those they love conspire with someone who is willing to kill their families anyways? Seems more likely they have been tricked and we will help them see the truth if you ally with the Kyrian.

I think it's more like the ones following the design of the Arbiter are the ones who have been tricked. And there will be both Lightsworn & Forsworn who see the truth & join those Mawsworn Kyrians.

Those are the choices we as the player are allowed to see. We are also told that teh Shadowlands is infinite, and it stands to reason that the souls we see are not indicative of the entirety of the souls in the universe, so it stands to reason there are other realms beyond that we are not seeing and are generally kinda bland where the regular people go to spend their afterlives.

Which makes these the ones the people of Azeroth are resigned to. Sort of like a "prison." I really wish someone would free us from this prison. "Set us all free" in fact.