Shadowlands is the "players were right" expansion.

[TheFirstOnes]

@Lucetia

What are you on about? I still despise Cata, WoTLK, and WoD for the most part. BFA is actually better than WoD tbh. Also, people like me? Who are you to assume my position in the WoW Community? I've always had issues with each different WoW expansion. Don't assume my entire stance on the game based on a couple of comments I made against BFA (Which is a shit expansion. You can't deny this).

[Biomega]

As for gathering data. Yes, I agree...I think certain features are in this game because Blizzard gathers data.

And you know what happens? Missions table are again in Shadowlands. Do ppl who hate them say "Oh well, Blizzard probably has data"? No..they say "Why is this shit still there, I hate it. Blizzard might have data, but they cannot read it"

What people tend to forget, though, is that it doesn't work like that. It's not a simple equation of "what people like" = "the best thing to do", because Blizzard isn't interested in making people happy per se - they're interested in making the most profit. And very often that includes designing things to be deliberately less fun than they could be, if it means making more money off of it. Their goal is to find the sweet spot between designing for maximum profits and retaining players, i.e. find things that they can screw with juuuust enough to make people play longer and not quit the game, even if they're not enjoying it as much as they otherwise would.

Remember: to Blizzard, how fun you think something is only matters in terms of a bottom line. Is this going to make you quit now? A month from now? Six months from now? THAT is the metric they're interested in above all else. Their design may well still end up ALSO pleasing people, because that's one common factor that directly leads to player retention (if people like it, they keep playing) - but it's not the ONLY way to get to their desired end result, and there's a gigantic grey area in between where they accept some people quitting if it means other people staying on longer.

[TheFirstOnes]

You will probably love Shadowlands then.

Lesser shit can still be shit. It's like comparing BFA with BFA. BFA ain't as dumb as WoD, but it's still dumb. Chances are it could be the same here.

Why do you think I never cared for Classic, but others did? Cause I knew it wasn't going to be as good as people thought it'd be, and even now, while I still love the game, there are a lot of expansions that made stupid decisions. Like TBC, WoTLK, etc.

[Kyriani]

What's wrong with the comfort zone? People want to be in comfort zones. Comfort zones are pleasant. And this is a game after all, you want to be in a comfort zone when playing a game.

The facts are stark. In the past three expansions Blizzard has engaged in iterative behaviour for it's own sake.

Warlords's garrison feature cratered the expansion.

Legion was fun, but it 'diablo-fied' the game, with systems designed to support the artifact weapons and which obscured that system's drawbacks.

BFA attempted to replace the missing artifact weapons with something else, and they sank a ton of developer time into attempting to correct the disaster that turned out to be.

There has to be an end. Settle on your core systems such as loot and where people get it as well as a catch up mechanism. Keep it consistent from expansion to expansion. If you have to iterate, do so around the edges with systems that don't impact this core loop. A new class, a new race or even player housing, things where experimentation can take place without risking the creation of an unfun game we have to suffer through in the hopes the next expansion will be better.

Iteration for the sake of it is the enemy of fun. Iteration for the sake of it wastes time that could be spent building content. 8.3 is clearly a pared back version of what they wanted to do. 8.3.5 was cut entirely. So was 6.2. Stable systems that players like and MORE CONTENT rather than continually tinkering with the game's guts is the ticket to success.

I have to agree with everything said here.

The constant "change for the sake of change" design philosophy has been hurting the game for years.

Sometimes.... just sometimes... the devs actually get something right... and then fuck it up the next xpac just for the sake change. I actually thought mythic+ was better in Legion, then Blizzard futzed with the affixes and it became less fun for me.

Systems don't need constant iteration every expansion. Sure there can be tuning when you see trouble spots but for the most part there should be a consistency to the game systems from xpac to xpac that we've been lacking since Cataclysm, and its only gotten worse as xpacs have gone on.

I see people disagreeing with Kai, but I don't think they realize that its not the systems that makes wow a fun game... its the content. Have a solid set of systems that cover the general basics of gameplay and reward mechanism and which need minimal iteration from xpac to xpac, and focus all the resources currently wasted on changing for the sake of change, on things that already work towards making more fun stuff for us to DO. More stuff like class hall story lines, branching quests, legendary questlines, proper player housing, expanding professions, maybe add a dye system.

If they feel the need to iterate on previous systems why not work on things that DIDN'T work like the Warfront system and/or Island Expedition system and make them better? Maybe scale Warfronts back in scope a bit and turn it into an actual zone event system rather than just an instanced version of a zone you queue up for once every few weeks. Find a way to use it in more places and give it deterministic rewards instead of the rng slot machine it currently is.

I couldn't even finish the alliance plate set I wanted because rng refused to give me the plate chest with the blue cloth trim no matter how many plate characters I did it on when Stromgarde was up. I just gave up beating my head against the rng wall and stopped doing it altogether. It didn't respect the time I invested into it. Same with Island Expeditions which I abandoned way way back in early BfA. Those are systems that could be improved with iteration. But when you have systems that actually work and are good, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Sometimes perfectly round wheels are actually "round enough" and don't need iteration. Focus on stuff that does.

[TheFirstOnes]

I don't like the idea that everyone's gonna automatically assume that just because we hate the current expansion, that automatically means we'll play the next one and call this expansion "good" as a result of the next expansion's mediocrity. You're dumb if you assume this, and you're not a real Warcraft fan if you are someone that does this whole "BFA IS TRASH BUT BECAUSE SHADOWLANDS SUCKS, BFA IS AUTOMATICALLY GOOD NOW!" bullshit.

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@Obelisk Kai Which is why I like how big these zones are. With Bastion, you can just stop and take a breather towards the land around you, without feeling cluttered like with Legion and BFA (I like Legion, but my god, the zones were fucked). Maldraxxus and the other zones seem to have a similar feel like Bastion.

[TheFirstOnes]

Sure...but seriously...that is on you..if a company designs a game to be "less fun" and you keep playing a "less fun game" for longer than you would play a "fun game" and you see through this.

Take responsibility and find a company that is worth your money. There certainly are enough games out there.

Yeah...I knew the moment people try and nail you down on the "they have data" and you agree...somebody moved the goalpost.

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...and back we are in 2008 when I joined and ppl pointing out that WotLK is at a peak of 12 million players and some dude goes "Well...duh..it just like..proves that...like ..flies like shit" Or how about: "I tasted diarrhoea, so shit is fine".

I always keep wondering though while the people who experienced paying for diarrhoea and are so clever still stick around to pay for shit.

You do realize I can still find fun in an expansion where a lot of the systems are fundamentally broken, yeah? M+, Raiding, etc are still fun for me. But AP, the story, and such are trash. I still play because I find my progression throughout the game fun. I can hate an expansion and still play the overall game. You seem to have trouble understanding this.

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Am I not allowed to play a game I want to see succeed? Am I not allowed to rant on features/expansions I don't overall like or find as rather shit?

[Kithelle]

I believe it is the "players were right" expansion, when there is no complaining once the x-pac is out.

Reality? Alpha is out and there is already plenty complaining. "Covenants suck" "Sylvanas will suck" "Torgast is DoA because HV suck" "Wot, no change to my favorite specc" "Wot? A change to my favorite specc that sounds as I might dislike it?"

ETC.......

And it will never get better as long as ppl like OP have the mindset of there being "players" who speak with one voice and all want the same and "Blizzard defenders" who...ehm..are somehow NOT counted as players, although they actually play while many complaining "players" claimed they quit?

I think in some points it will be the "they listened to some stuff that I and some like-minded ppl would have liked to see changed" x-pac but now way in hell will it make everyone happy and stop critical threads (using the word "critical" deliberately. People can have a point when criticising things, as can people who defend things.)

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I don't think they posted them, but SoulBreezy made a video about what he discovered in alpha so far. Some interesting stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGryFfFIPVI

Fact of the matter if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you change things lots of people are gonna complain that they don't like change
If you keep things the same lots of people are gonna complain it's stale

IMO this expansion is the "Lets make things more like Classic" expansion because it's just easier than trying to fix or improve anything and all they care about is the money.

[Nerovar]

Not muddying the waters, because everyone likes to invoke this "playerbase" to support their point. Fact is, there is no playerbase that speaks with one voice. Need proof? Look at ANY thread on this forum where ppl disagree. Look at this thread.

As for gathering data. Yes, I agree...I think certain features are in this game because Blizzard gathers data.

And you know what happens? Missions table are again in Shadowlands. Do ppl who hate them say "Oh well, Blizzard probably has data"? No..they say "Why is this shit still there, I hate it. Blizzard might have data, but they cannot read it"

And even right in the very first post of OP going on it is the "player expansion" and all the fanbois and Blizzard defenders were wrong (as if ppl who like the game are not players) he says that there is still "shit" like Anima Power and Covenant abilities. Because god forbid we actually acknowledge what you just say: That Blizzard actually might use data. And that data might show people do like to grind a currency within reasons. But I guess they only use the data "properly" if they do what somebody likes?

First of all, I didn't invoke "the playerbase" to support my point. I merely used it as a catch-all phrase that signifies that these ideas Blizzard has chosen to implement don't come out of nowhere but are very popular talking points among forum users and WoW influencers as oppossed to ideas that come from Blizzard themselves (like GCD change etc.).

Secondly, you're misconstruing my point. I didn't claim that a data driven approach is inherently correct or incorrect and I never said that I agree or disagree with Blizzard's use of it. My point was that Blizzard obviously has ways to gather feedback and data they want to use and that this doesn't necessarily correlate with majority opinions of the playerbase which renders your deflection about "what even is the playerbase lol" useless.

Mission tables were hated by many people in WoD and Legion because progression systems were locked behind them, effectively forcing people to use them. That doesn't mean they can't be introduced in a way that allows players who enjoy the feature to enjoy it without bothering people who dislike it. Blizzard probably knows this, as they have lessened the actual impact of mission tables with each expansion (probably went a bit overboard with BfA as the system was fine with Legion if you take away the mandatory stuff).

In the end, we can only speculate about how Blizzard utilizes data and if they do it "correctly". It's a pretty useless discussion to have though. What we can talk about is Blizzard adopting certain views of ""the playerbase"" and agreeing with them but ending up implementing these ideas in an inconsequential/inconsistent way like I described in my original example.

[huth]

What people tend to forget, though, is that it doesn't work like that. It's not a simple equation of "what people like" = "the best thing to do"

You're right up until here. But it's not just the money, often, giving people what they want isn't the correct answer because of how it affects others, especially when what they want is "make me OP and nerf everybody else".

[Revamp Man]

???????
Anima Powers are literally just buffs for Torghast.

Unless you mean an equivalent to Artifact power, which there is none.
As stated numerous times already.

Anima power is also used for soul binds

There’s still some stuff that is eh like the OP said Like you can’t swap gear in m+ but dps warriors need.....shields for their new abilities

Blizzard listens to players and now they realize they listened to the players that were not effected by the changes

GCD change for macros...it worked for little jimmy because he didn’t macro stuff before so now he doesn’t feel punished.... but the better players suffered

Loot locking in m+...again little jimmy doesn’t need to worry about being judged....but some people enjoyed it and it wasn’t required until +15 maybe higher and jimmy only did +8

Pretty much every BfA change can be explained like this

[letssee]

there are core fundemental problems with RETAIL in general and because of those retail will always be shit

[Revamp Man]

So no replay value is what you want personally raiding without gear upgrades defeats the purpose of raiding totally, might as well bring back the garrison table if thats where they are looking to go

You see that mentality is one where rating is a singular personal reward system

In a world without random bullshit upgrades you can more freely give loot to your team thus making you all stronger and making it to where you can move up and difficulty or where you can start playing other characters if you don’t want to play other characters then you can start selling runs or you can take a little bit of a break because guess what each tear only lasts about six months if the only thing you care about in the game his rating that’s on you lizard is never going to cater to that and thinking that removing the bullshit lottery is somehow a bad thing I don’t know what to tell you because personally I don’t like killing the same boss 20 times just hoping for that one random drop with that one special upgrade on it it’s not fun it’s not engaging the only thing that makes it tolerable are my friends

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there are core fundemental problems with RETAIL in general and because of those retail will always be shit

Like what my good sir?

[Biomega]

You're right up until here. But it's not just the money, often, giving people what they want isn't the correct answer because of how it affects others, especially when what they want is "make me OP and nerf everybody else".

Yes, that much is obvious; I wasn't referring so much to individual cases as a general consensus, i.e. something a vast majority of players will, on average, find fun or desirable. Which is not to say, of course, that minorities should just be drowned out, you're right about that.

[Raetary]

Anima power is also used for soul binds

Anima powers are temporary buffs in torghast.

Anima is a weekly capped currency we spend on Soulbinds and other fluff.

[Jiai]

This.

Some of these changes are going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people that asked for them. Just like Classic was.

So true...

Can't wait to see people complaining about the balance of 1h Frost vs 2h Frost, or seeing that no TitanForging means a LOT less players trying to engage in lower level content, or even current content once they are geared.

I'm not saying it is not the right solution, but most systems created by Blizzard were meant to solve issues.

[cparle87]

Or it will turn out to be the "Player were utterly wrong" expansion. You're a bit to quick to celebrate here.

Yeah, that's what I'm forseeing. Sadly I don't think most people have the mental balance to accept that what they wanted wasn't as good as they thought it would be, and they'll just spin it into "this isn't really what I wanted Blizz didn't do it right." Classic is a meta example.

[De Lupe]

Should this expansion turn out to work and the design decisions are validated, Blizzard needs to do one thing for 10.0.

Nothing. Constant iteration has heavily damage this game as they strive to reinvent it with every expansion. If Shadowlands is the working formula, STOP ITERATING. Just create new content, new quests, new zones, new stories. If 10.0 is the same game as 9.0, what of it if 9.0 was a wild success?

If that requires a new roguelike dungeon for Torghast, just do another one. If crafting our own legendaries is a brilliant system, just do that again.

No need to continually reinvent the wheel which each expansion because there's 50/50 chance doing so will make the next expansion suck.

The only reason WoW has survived as long as it has is BECAUSE it changes so much. Yea, some of the things they've done have absolutely sucked. But others have worked out great.

Games that don't evolve eventually stagnate and die.

[letssee]

You see that mentality is one where rating is a singular personal reward system

In a world without random bullshit upgrades you can more freely give loot to your team thus making you all stronger and making it to where you can move up and difficulty or where you can start playing other characters if you don’t want to play other characters then you can start selling runs or you can take a little bit of a break because guess what each tear only lasts about six months if the only thing you care about in the game his rating that’s on you lizard is never going to cater to that and thinking that removing the bullshit lottery is somehow a bad thing I don’t know what to tell you because personally I don’t like killing the same boss 20 times just hoping for that one random drop with that one special upgrade on it it’s not fun it’s not engaging the only thing that makes it tolerable are my friends

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Like what my good sir?

catch up gear and mechanics, LFR, Sharding, etc...

[TheFirstOnes]

@det

I play many games with flaws. Flaws I find in WoW usually aren't big unless it hinders my playing experience, which it hasn't completely, but things like AP and co go kind of get in the way? But they don't hinder it. Also, I think calling the expansion "shit" and "trash" is a little extreme, that you're right on. I'll just say it "could've been a lot better" instead, and express why.

Oh, and I agree. The OP doesn't know what he's talking about.

[huth]

Anima powers are temporary buffs in torghast.

Anima is a weekly capped currency we spend on Soulbinds and other fluff.

Anima is explicitly uncapped. Soulbind progression is capped weekly.