Page 14 of 16 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
LastLast
  1. #261
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You were trying to use innovation as "the far more likely reason people have left the game" as if they had not innovated it would have kept more players. I am showing that argument is false, with what Blizzard has already stated and that the landscape of the online gaming environment has changed.

    Essentially I'm saying you can't pin them innovating as the reason for why people have left and why innovating isn't something they should do.
    No, you are arguing that the number one reason people have left the game is changing tastes in gaming culture. That is probably correct.

    My point was on an entirely different matter, than failed innovation has been a greater driver of departures than stagnation, which is of course true as the game has not been stagnant.

  2. #262
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Cainium View Post
    It depends. If the MMORPGs would still be what they used to be, maybe they would do better?

    Not only the amount of players is "massive", but RPGs in general are "massive" games and do not play well with quick 15 minutes of "fun". Thats what arcade games are for. Is it a good idea when arcade games start rising again to abondon the fundamentals of the RPG genre to become more arcadish while driving away those who want a RPG?

    I'm not so sure about that. Trying to satisfy everone will usually satisfy noone.
    I believe games should grow with their audience. That is, most people still playing WoW since its early beginnings (even from Wrath) are aged more now and most likely have more responsibilities in their life than when they were high schoolers or w/e.

    There's a reason why far more still play Retail over Classic, a lot of people cannot commit to the time commitment in Classic. It's why Retail has moved toward shorter, but still fairly decent amount of time to accomplish things.

    It's not 15 min of fun, but it's 30min-1hr maybe over Classic's 2-3hr+ lengths.

    All I'm saying where you're quoting me is the environment of online gaming today has changed so much that it's the far more likely factor of WoW not being as popular than trying to pin it on them innovating the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No, you are arguing that the number one reason people have left the game is changing tastes in gaming culture. That is probably correct.

    My point was on an entirely different matter, than failed innovation has been a greater driver of departures than stagnation, which is of course true as the game has not been stagnant.
    You're just repeating yourself now. Innovation is not the greater driver of departures, as Blizzard have said even during Wrath of Lich King people were leaving in droves. Wrath was an expansion that barely innovated compared to what they've been doing since Cataclysm onwards.

    And as Shadowlands will be a return to form of earlier design, if it's numbers don't suddenly burst to Wrath or TBC levels then it proves what I've been saying is correct: It's not innovation/lack of innovation, it's the landscape of online gaming today compared to back then.

    Because if your argument that failed innovation is a greater driver of departures over stagnation is true, then WoW should become a giant again once those failed innovations have been reversed.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    There are still completely dead rows where you will still pick the exact same talent 99% of the time.
    Personally, I want talents to be things you use to tune a class's playstyle to your liking. Something like ret's
    lvl 100 row.

    Want to be big burst CD hero? Choose crusade.
    Want to be twitch king proc boi? Choose divine purpose.
    Enjoy boring ass buff maintenance? Choose inquisition.

    3 talents that drastically alter the feel of the class. Now, the kicker is they have to be balanced properly and you can't have one that is even just 5% more powerful. It has to get under 5% for it to truly be "a choice" for most of the competitive people.

    Swapping talents constantly based on the situation is just a chore and also not something I'm interested in.

  4. #264
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by pfbe View Post
    Yeah, there were a few major changes to the market that people (and I dont just mean on here, I mean everywhere, even in the industry) seem to not mention when talking about the decline of mmo's, specifically:

    a) Consoles went online, with a massive focus on online FPS and Sports games (fast, quick paced, get in get out experiences).
    b) Tablets and smartphones became (casual) gaming and social platforms
    c) both of the above brough massive numbers of new consumers to the "online gaming" market who had no interest in mmorpg's, namely children and casual adult players.

    Children alone account for such a ridiculously large part of today's development trends.
    A lot of people like to live in their own bubble without considering all that happens around the world.

    We're in a very different time now than when WoW first released and even different from a few years after its released.

    Time moves forward, and so does all things with it, if WoW didn't adapt it most likely wouldn't continue to be one of the main MMOs today.

    And an example of such can be found with Everquest, the game that has pretty much stayed mostly the same through its expansions. It's a shell of its former self.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Then there's more of a real choice there.
    No such thing as "real choice" in most cases unless
    1) it's purely a preference thing. I.e. A red Mustang is as fast as a yellow Mustang, doesn't matter which color you pick.
    2) you're okay making concessions and accepting shortcomings.

    I don't know many people who indulge #2 often as far as performance in games is concerned. Usually, if they do, they're already sub-par players anyways.

    Ergo, trying to make talents balanced so it's strictly just a preference of what you think feels better to play is the only way I think we'd actually see choice and variance.

  6. #266
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    You're just repeating yourself now. Innovation is not the greater driver of departures, as Blizzard have said even during Wrath of Lich King people were leaving in droves. Wrath was an expansion that barely innovated compared to what they've been doing since Cataclysm onwards.

    And as Shadowlands will be a return to form of earlier design, if it's numbers don't suddenly burst to Wrath or TBC levels then it proves what I've been saying is correct: It's not innovation/lack of innovation, it's the landscape of online gaming today compared to back then.

    Because if your argument that failed innovation is a greater driver of departures over stagnation is true, then WoW should become a giant again once those failed innovations have been reversed.
    I think you are comprehensively missing the point, so I will try again.

    That there are other, bigger reasons for WoW's long term decline including the changing landscape of gaming that you mention.

    But on the specific point I was responding to, the previous poster advised that stagnation in terms of design would drive people away whereas the counter to that is that the failed systems of corruption, essences, azerite armor, artifact power grinding and garrisons have driven more people away than leaving well enough alone and not messing with the basic systems would have done.

    And no, WoW won't become a giant again with the reversal and removal of these systems because of the changing landscape of gaming. It might become a better one though, and if it becomes a better one, why toss that model in the trash for 10.0 just for the sake of more failed innovation?

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No need to continually reinvent the wheel which each expansion because there's 50/50 chance doing so will make the next expansion suck.
    The passage of time is a factor. They couldn't launch the same expansion twice and achieve the same results. Change in inevitable, it's just that their decisions have rarely been met with success after WoTLK.

  8. #268
    In the end game design is iterative process where no one right or wrong at any given time. They are simply in different distance from being the optimal when you are considering your playerbase. Classic is good example of this. It has alot of things that current retail players dont like but it still attracts alot of people. That doesn't make the classic systems good. Though Classic was mostly made to get people from private servers to cash in.

  9. #269
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelathos View Post
    The passage of time is a factor. They couldn't launch the same expansion twice and achieve the same results. Change in inevitable, it's just that their decisions have rarely been met with success after WoTLK.
    Change is indeed inevitable, and some tinkering can be expected to accommodate that change.

    But if the game were a car, rather than tinker to keep it going and running smoothly, they've too often gone and torn out the engine for what at first glance looks shiny and new but which has proven inferior over the long term.

  10. #270
    Most of the things on this list I think would be good for the game but not "Let Loot be Loot." The game is already tedious enough between farming mobs for mats for professions, farming dungeons and raids for gear. It is great for all the kids out there who don't have to go to work or streamers who play video games for a living. Not that great for people who can spend all their time on the game.
    I don't think they will do a very good job at any of these things on the list but they are good ideas. The only thing I am excited about it is the level squish because I am an altaholic.

  11. #271
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Port Richey, FL
    Posts
    2,968
    That doesn't mean players were right. I think they're just trying out some of these requests to see if players actually enjoy the old systems better. I personally liked Titanforging and am curious to see how fewer loot drops are going to affect my progression.
    Check out my game, Craftsmith, on the Google Play Store!

  12. #272
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I think you are comprehensively missing the point, so I will try again.

    That there are other, bigger reasons for WoW's long term decline including the changing landscape of gaming that you mention.

    But on the specific point I was responding to, the previous poster advised that stagnation in terms of design would drive people away whereas the counter to that is that the failed systems of corruption, essences, azerite armor, artifact power grinding and garrisons have driven more people away than leaving well enough alone and not messing with the basic systems would have done.

    And no, WoW won't become a giant again with the reversal and removal of these systems because of the changing landscape of gaming. It might become a better one though, and if it becomes a better one, why toss that model in the trash for 10.0 just for the sake of more failed innovation?
    So you're only looking at the bad innovations they've done while ignoring the good ones? That's not biased at all.

    But that I see in later posts you agree change is inevitable and some adjustments need to be made to accommodate those changes is well enough for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilist74 View Post
    Most of the things on this list I think would be good for the game but not "Let Loot be Loot." The game is already tedious enough between farming mobs for mats for professions, farming dungeons and raids for gear. It is great for all the kids out there who don't have to go to work or streamers who play video games for a living. Not that great for people who can spend all their time on the game.
    I don't think they will do a very good job at any of these things on the list but they are good ideas. The only thing I am excited about it is the level squish because I am an altaholic.
    Well when they spoke about "let loot be loot" and reducing it's availability they were talking about the less availability in raids I think. But even so if it is from every facet of the game "aka no more emissary chest loot" then I don't see how that's not helpful for people that can't spend time on the game either.

    I can't play as much as I would like to because of other responsibilities, but if there's less different iterations of gear (aka no tf/wf/corruption/proc socket, etc) then despite loot being overall more rare, once you get it you have the best iteration of it.

    The problem with these past couple expansions is WoW tried to give the loot diversity of an ARPG without having loot be plentiful enough to fit it. Sure it's more plentiful than back in Classic/TBC but it wasn't at the levels of ARPG games.

    A lot of people don't mind how randomly rare good items are to get in ARPGs because so much loot drops there's a chance to find something a little bit worthwhile.

    WoW has too many gated systems for it to feel like that with the amount of RNG they put in.

  13. #273
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    So you're only looking at the bad innovations they've done while ignoring the good ones? That's not biased at all.

    But that I see in later posts you agree change is inevitable and some adjustments need to be made to accommodate those changes is well enough for me.
    Change is inevitable. But there are degrees of change. Again, Final Fantasy 14 operates a restrained approach to it's expansion progression since it's relaunch. It tinkers with things but does not do a wholesale revamp every two years seemingly for the sake of it.

    What can be defined as good innovations are the small things they have done.

    The bad innovations are the huge game altering systems they have tried to foist on us. Garrisons, titanforging, corruption, azerite armour, systems that more often than not have broken and diverted their attention. Time wasted building these disasters. Time wasted fixing them.

    If the core of the game is sound it should be left alone. Iteration should take place at the edges and time spent on systems should be sent building actual content.

    If let loot be loot works for 9.0, why the hell should that philosophy be ditched for 10.0 in favour of yet another insane rng based approach?
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2020-04-16 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Personally, I want talents to be things you use to tune a class's playstyle to your liking. Something like ret's
    lvl 100 row.

    Want to be big burst CD hero? Choose crusade.
    Want to be twitch king proc boi? Choose divine purpose.
    Enjoy boring ass buff maintenance? Choose inquisition.

    3 talents that drastically alter the feel of the class. Now, the kicker is they have to be balanced properly and you can't have one that is even just 5% more powerful. It has to get under 5% for it to truly be "a choice" for most of the competitive people.

    Swapping talents constantly based on the situation is just a chore and also not something I'm interested in.
    This isn't really how WoW players operate.

    Players will take the number 1 mathematically best talent for every situation. EVERY TIME. Even if you need to be a top 1% to get it to actually be more effective people who cannot make it work will still take the 'best' option.

    Then they will complain the game isn't balanced and that Blizzard is forcing them to play a way they don't want to.

  15. #275
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    This isn't really how WoW players operate.

    Players will take the number 1 mathematically best talent for every situation. EVERY TIME. Even if you need to be a top 1% to get it to actually be more effective people who cannot make it work will still take the 'best' option.

    Then they will complain the game isn't balanced and that Blizzard is forcing them to play a way they don't want to.
    Simming is the best way to do it, because it accounts for how all your gear pieces interact with each other.

    That DemonDays dude posting about a website where it shows which talents are picked most often is just what huth said, players believing that's the best option.

    For example I speak on Ret Pally because its my main. If you look at https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ladin/vindicte

    Crusade is only chosen 10% of the time. DemonDays trying to insinuate it's a bad talent because it's chosen less, but for my stat budget Crusade sims highest over DP and Inq. (rest of my talents are ES, HoW, WoA for throughput DPS).

    And Fist of Justice being 70% chosen is just because Repentence and Blinding Light have more niche situation uses that overall FoJ is the default one people stick to. None of those talents increase throughput. Eye for an Eye is mostly a PvP talent against melee teams.

    And etc etc. @huth is correct, it's mostly player perception.

    Thankfully, majority of players don't give a shit about that 'what's top 1% i'm picking it'. And I still don't think many people sim, despite both wowhead and icyveins encouraging it now too.

    We've had a dude heroic raid farming with us and his cloak was rank 7 just this week. Group doesn't care and his performance wasn't severely lacking because of it (or at all I'd say).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If let loot be loot works for 9.0, why the hell should that philosophy be ditched for 10.0 in favour of yet another insane rng based approach?
    No one's been arguing that though.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    ...
    Also. One thing is definitely missing to call SL "Players were right" xpack - removal of Pathfinder and return of flying at release. Till then it's not 100% "Players were right".

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I believe games should grow with their audience. That is, most people still playing WoW since its early beginnings (even from Wrath) are aged more now and most likely have more responsibilities in their life than when they were high schoolers or w/e.

    There's a reason why far more still play Retail over Classic, a lot of people cannot commit to the time commitment in Classic. It's why Retail has moved toward shorter, but still fairly decent amount of time to accomplish things.

    It's not 15 min of fun, but it's 30min-1hr maybe over Classic's 2-3hr+ lengths.
    Classic has it's own issues why it is unable to attract a new audience, despite being an excellent RPG.

    From an economical point of view it doesn't matter who plays the game. If WoW would become a modern MMORPG instead of an ActionArcadeMMO-Hybrid, and truly committed to this, it would be able to attract new players. But Blizzard does not do this.

    Imagine having a MMORPG of the Witcher caliber. That would be great, many people would play this no matter the time investment. But neither Retail nor Classic are even close to that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    All I'm saying where you're quoting me is the environment of online gaming today has changed so much that it's the far more likely factor of WoW not being as popular than trying to pin it on them innovating the game.
    Thats absolutely true. What I was trying to say is that their direction how they tried to adopt to this changed environment was the "wrong" one (if it's fair to call the development of a game which still has millions of players "wrong").

  18. #278
    Right now nothing in Shadowlands is exciting me. Getting old abilities back is nice but not that interesting, no new class, and specs will feel basically like they always have, so nothing new or interesting to try.

    So bored of the current specs in the game, not a single one interests me.

    They needed to add new core rotation abiliies that aren't borrowed for an expansion, and make specs feel updated so I'm not just playing fireball spamming fire mage or etc for an entire expansion again.
    Last edited by Alcsaar; 2020-04-16 at 06:39 PM.

  19. #279
    Herald of the Titans
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    2,812
    There is innovation when you're just returning things after you shafted it.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by MoFalcon View Post
    no matter how great we think it is

    no matter how many people LOVE it

    no matter how many more subs they get

    no matter how awesome and superior everyone think the new expansion is, there will ALWAYS be a group of whiners and complainers and idiots who think it sucks....Thinks "X" is better. Wishes that "Y" was left in or added in.

    People just love to complain. Simple fact! They will be louder than the ones that love it. and just like every other expansion, the people who love it will be eternally tormented by those that just love to complain.

    idiots will be idiots!
    Hell right now Sony is giving out two extra free games to everyone not just PS Plus members and people are bitching about it because either they already have those games they don't like those genre's or the game isn't good enough for them. The two games are the Nathan Drake Collection which is actually 3 games in a bundle and Journey.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •