Paladin changes that would make me play it again

[Tyron]

Hey all, I've been putting together some changes I'd like to see that would make me return to my paladin. Most of these are retribution oriented (as it's the spec i've played the most), but seals should be available to all specs. Would you like to see a return like this? I've added some utility and mobility for HotC.

Exorcism

Similar to Blade of Justice but deals additional damage when you fight fight demons, undead and aberrations. Art of War resets its CD too.

Seals and judgment

Judgment: Can only be used with seals mechanics.

Seal of Blood / Vengeance: Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to have a chance to apply Blood corruption/holy vengeance. Once stack to 5 times allows the use of Judgment which deals damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target.

Seal of Command: All melee attacks deal additional Holy damage to up to 5 targets in front of the paladin and have a chance to grant holy power to the paladin. Once the paladin has gathered 3 holy power allows the use of Judgment which deals low damage to up 5 targets and increases their holy damage taken.

Seal of Fury: Melee attacks against the target cause additional threat and have a chance to apply Censure. Once Censure has stacked 5 times allows the use of Judgment which deals damage and reduces your damage taken by the target by 10%.

Seal of Light: Fills the Paladin with divine light, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin and grant a stack of holy power. Judgment: Spent 3 up to 3 holy power to restore X% of your mana and heal up to 5 targets.

Heart of the Crusader

Leap atop your charger increasing the movement speed of all friendly players within 15 yards by 60% for 8 sec. 4 min CD.

Cavalier [Talent]

Each time you suffer a loss of control effect reduces the CD of Divine Steed by 8 secs. When you inflict a loss of control effect or movement impairing effect reduces the CD of divine steed by 4 seconds.

Retribution Aura

Each time an ally suffers damage you gain a stack of Retribution. Once you have gathered 100 Retribution stacks you gain Avenging Wrath for 8 secs.

Aura Mastery

Increases the rate at which Retribution stacks by 100%. 3 min CD.

What are your thoughts on this? Personally, I'm super tired of the holy power gameplay and would love to see seals return in a form like this.

[Zmagoslav]

So what you want is just more overpowered version of what we currently have + seal mechanics (albeit buffed) from classic/TBC?

Yeah,... i think we'll pass.
We don't need you that badly.

[Elkas]

Paladin is one of the most played classes, I think we'll be fine without the people that'll come back only if seals return.

[Runstarr]

It's gotten super boring for me lately as a ret and i'm not happy with the shadowlands changes either, so i'm going DK for shadowlands.

[Tyron]

So what you want is just more overpowered version of what we currently have + seal mechanics (albeit buffed) from classic/TBC?

No? Judgment wouldn't be used constantly, and right now a lot of the damage done by rets is done through azerite gear which is gone in SL.

Yeah,... I think I'll pass.
I don't need you that badly.

Fixed that for you

[Xypherftw]

I'd like exorcism to come back at least

[Runstarr]

What I would also like to see is hammer becoming an actual execute again, now it's an execute that does wet noodle damage. Exorcism high there up top I would love to have back, seals too. If we had those back I think i could live without the others you mentioned.

[Wrecktangle]

Hey all, I've been putting together some changes I'd like to see that would make me return to my paladin. Most of these are retribution oriented (as it's the spec i've played the most), but seals should be available to all specs. Would you like to see a return like this? I've added some utility and mobility for HotC.

Exorcism

Similar to Blade of Justice but deals additional damage when you fight fight demons, undead and aberrations. Art of War resets its CD too.

Seals and judgment

Judgment: Can only be used with seals mechanics.

Seal of Blood / Vengeance: Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to have a chance to apply Blood corruption/holy vengeance. Once stack to 5 times allows the use of Judgment which deals damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target.

Seal of Command: All melee attacks deal additional Holy damage to up to 5 targets in front of the paladin and have a chance to grant holy power to the paladin. Once the paladin has gathered 3 holy power allows the use of Judgment which deals low damage to up 5 targets and increases their holy damage taken.

Seal of Fury: Melee attacks against the target cause additional threat and have a chance to apply Censure. Once Censure has stacked 5 times allows the use of Judgment which deals damage and reduces your damage taken by the target by 10%.

Seal of Light: Fills the Paladin with divine light, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin and grant a stack of holy power. Judgment: Spent 3 up to 3 holy power to restore X% of your mana and heal up to 5 targets.

Heart of the Crusader

Leap atop your charger increasing the movement speed of all friendly players within 15 yards by 60% for 8 sec. 4 min CD.

Cavalier [Talent]

Each time you suffer a loss of control effect reduces the CD of Divine Steed by 8 secs. When you inflict a loss of control effect or movement impairing effect reduces the CD of divine steed by 4 seconds.

Retribution Aura

Each time an ally suffers damage you gain a stack of Retribution. Once you have gathered 100 Retribution stacks you gain Avenging Wrath for 8 secs.

Aura Mastery

Increases the rate at which Retribution stacks by 100%. 3 min CD.

What are your thoughts on this? Personally, I'm super tired of the holy power gameplay and would love to see seals return in a form like this.

As someone who likes to do these kind of exercises for fun I'll offer my insight.

Exorcism is redundant with Blade of Justice. While I miss it too, they really should just make it a glyph. If we want to change it into a new function I'm all for that. Something like the Legion beta version of Holy Wrath which was a fast channel that hits 5x hard was a missed opportunity IMO.

Every single one of your seals suggestions is reductive, binary, and boring gameplay. Seals as they existed should stay where they belong. In the graveyard. If you could design a more modern dynamic system I'd be interested to hear it.

Heart of the Crusader is fine.

Cavalier is a fine enough pvp talent.

Ret Aura is fine mechanically as you've presented it, BUT it would strongly encourage derelict gameplay which is overall bad.

Aura mastery is a waste of a button for Ret and just contributes to button bloat. If anything you should bake its effect into something else to make it a more common, but dynamic experience.

[Tyron]

Exorcism is redundant with Blade of Justice. While I miss it too, they really should just make it a glyph. If we want to change it into a new function I'm all for that. Something like the Legion beta version of Holy Wrath which was a fast channel that hits 5x hard was a missed opportunity IMO.

The idea is the same as BoJ but for enemies more "vulnerable" to light. But yeah, I agree they could add it as a glyph.

Every single one of your seals suggestions is reductive, binary, and boring gameplay. Seals as they existed should stay where they belong. In the graveyard. If you could design a more modern dynamic system I'd be interested to hear it.

I must be in the minority then, but I really enjoyed it. I can't stand the button mashing of crusade and light's decree.

Ret Aura is fine mechanically as you've presented it, BUT it would strongly encourage derelict gameplay which is overall bad. Aura mastery is a waste of a button for Ret and just contributes to button bloat. If anything you should bake its effect into something else to make it a more common, but dynamic experience

You think? I mean, the last Alpha build changed Retribution to grant AW when someone dies...That's even worse.

I think you are right with Aura Mastery, but they should find a way so each spec can you use it considering auras are baseline abilities.

[Wrecktangle]

I must be in the minority then, but I really enjoyed it. I can't stand the button mashing of crusade and light's decree.

You enjoyed toggling seals for AOE or ST? Bland buffs that offer very little (censure stacking multi targets) to no (any other seal) engagement or mechanical synergy? At best they were tedious, at worst they were awful. IMO of course.

You think? I mean, the last Alpha build changed Retribution to grant AW when someone dies...That's even worse.

I think you are right with Aura Mastery, but they should find a way so each spec can you use it considering auras are baseline abilities.

I know for a fact because if you told me I could get an extra AW (20s worth) over the course of a 4 min fight (significantly increasing buff uptime) by forcing people to take non lethal damage, I would make every single person do it every single pull, on every source of damage possible that wouldn't wipe/cause issues. It would create wild swings in damage output.

Healers would hate it. I would hate being tied to other peoples performance, and I can guarantee others wouldn't want to do it. It literally has no upside.

The argument for what they're currently proposing isn't good either. It's better because no one will want to willingly die for it outside of some farm padding shit, but otherwise it's a nice buff to hopefully help eek out that last second wipe -> clears. Again, if I were designing it, it would not exist in either form. I don't think there's value mechanically in increasing damage off scenarios like this.

[Gasparde]

I'd love having Exorcism and Seals back, with HoW going baseline that'd probably be all I need.

[Nobleshield]

I do think they need to bring seals back in some fashion, like I feel having Seal of Command to be able to do cleaving would be nice. Holy could get Seal of Light which does passive healing with melee, and not sure what Prot could get. It would be something you could turn on/off as needed. I don't think there needs to be a Judgement effect again, not because it wouldn't be cool but because I don't think they could really make it work.

Exorcism needs to come back though, Blade of Justice looks stupidly cartoony.

[Vintersol]

Revert back to MoP Design and i'm in.

[Schattenlied]

Emancipate, PoJ, remove the CD from Crusader Strike (it hits for less than auto attack, why does it need to have a cooldown at all, let alone 6 bloody goddamn seconds).

That's all I want (aside from cosmetic stuff, like Exo glyph for BoJ, WoD Final Verdict glyph for TV, old DS animation glyph, pre-legion Judgment animation, stuff like that).

[Kanegasi]

I have played a Paladin since BC and will play one for as long as I play WoW, but the change I want is Blessing of Might back, and not restricted to a single target like the neutered Blessings we have now. I think all classes should have some kind of group buff or buff they can just give out to anyone.

[PickleballAce]

Canadians have the right idea when it comes to seals.

[Vorality]

So what you want is just more overpowered version of what we currently have + seal mechanics (albeit buffed) from classic/TBC?

Yeah,... i think we'll pass.
We don't need you that badly.

A lot of what he said sounds pretty cool and should be taken into account. If you don't have anything good to add, don't post anything. You're wasting your time being a child.

[BeepBoo]

Seals as a concept and flavor were great. Having different seals that would be more useful in different types of damage situations like what you have for command and vengeance would be great.

Gt rid of hopo altogether and go back more toward wrath style. Just make us skill-cooldown-based with a priority instead of builder/spender based. It could effectively even have the same rhythm for all I care, I just hate feeling like a rogue looking at my points all the time.

Single target being SoV->judge and TV on CD, fill gaps with exo procs and CS.
AoE being SoComm->judge and DS on CD, fill gaps with exo procs and CS.

Would feel decidedly more paladin than just building/spending hopo.

Exo > blade of justice. It was longer range, had a cooler sound, and less flashy animation (which I like).

I liked two very specific things about the evolution of ret by the time WOTLK hit last patch:

1) We were entirely cooldown based, which was pretty unique among melee. Warriors had rage, rogues had combo points, rets had cooldowns.
2) We were basically insta-cast range hybrids to compensate for our lack of mobility, which again, was pretty unique. Warriors had charge and leap. Rogues had shadow step and sprint and poisons. Ret had short duration spring on judgment and half their kit had over 20 yard range.

I'm a fan of "everyone can accomplish the same goals, they just go about it differently" game design.

[Tyron]

You enjoyed toggling seals for AOE or ST? Bland buffs that offer very little (censure stacking multi targets) to no (any other seal) engagement or mechanical synergy? At best they were tedious, at worst they were awful. IMO of course.

I didn't enjoy the OG seals ( seal > judgment; seal > judgment). But yeah, I liked the Seal of Truth/Righteousness concept for paladin, it was similar to the warrior stances and it made you plan ahead of add phases. Anyway, I would agree if they decided to reimagine the mechanic behind seals.

I have played a Paladin since BC and will play one for as long as I play WoW, but the change I want is Blessing of Might back, and not restricted to a single target like the neutered Blessings we have now. I think all classes should have some kind of group buff or buff they can just give out to anyone.

That would be dope dude. They are nerfing all class buffs, so perhaps there's a chance it comes back :/

Seals as a concept and flavor were great. Having different seals that would be more useful in different types of damage situations like what you have for command and vengeance would be great.

I completely agree. I see seals for rets as totems are for shamans or poisons for rogues, etc.

I'm a fan of "everyone can accomplish the same goals, they just go about it differently" game design.

What triggers me a bit is that they could accomplish this through talents in the same way they now have DP, crusade and inquisition in the same row. Just give us the option to play different ways and remove useless talents like justicar's vengeance or repentance. I don't care if you want to make one playstyle better than the others for WF raiders...just give us the option.

[Wrecktangle]

I didn't enjoy the OG seals ( seal > judgment; seal > judgment). But yeah, I liked the Seal of Truth/Righteousness concept for paladin, it was similar to the warrior stances and it made you plan ahead of add phases. Anyway, I would agree if they decided to reimagine the mechanic behind seals.

How was a binary toggle for passive AOE/ST damage anything like warrior stances? Warrior stances locked out different abilities and reduced current resources when switching. They're nothing alike at all except that if you used the default UI they floated above the main toolbar.

Seals did not require ANY forward thinking, you simply swapped if the add threshold was met. Simple as that. Warrior stances required some forethought to minimize resource losses, but most people just found it tedious, hence why they were eventually removed.

That would be dope dude. They are nerfing all class buffs, so perhaps there's a chance it comes back :/

Nearly every iteration of Blessing of Might was awful. Vanilla 5 min duration was awful. WotLK 1 hour or 30 mins whatever it was fire and forget was also awful. Legion's DPS siphoning mechanic was universally reviled.

Passive buffs that offer no actual gameplay mechanism don't really belong in modern gaming. While I certainly agree thematically buffing makes sense, they need to find a way to balance it and make it impactful and passive fire and forget buffs aren't it.

What triggers me a bit is that they could accomplish this through talents in the same way they now have DP, crusade and inquisition in the same row. Just give us the option to play different ways and remove useless talents like justicar's vengeance or repentance. I don't care if you want to make one playstyle better than the others for WF raiders...just give us the option.

Repentance wasn't useless. I personally used it quite a bit flexing between that or the HoPo reduction on Hammer of Justice depending on whether I was running Crusade and if we were doing high enough M+ keys to warrant Repentance. JV sucked though for sure.

I personally subscribe to the idea of some homogenization is ok if you can thematically differentiate well enough. I've long suggested that some playstyles can overlap especially if they're cross role (i.e. a new Ret iteration could share similar mechanics with say a Shadow Priest since one is melee and the other is a ranged caster, but to try and avoid sharing similarities between the other melee).